Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • We stand with Ukraine. Please consider supporting Ukraine through a qualified organization.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Criminal Charges Dropped Against La Pastor !

Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Anyhow the only time I have been allowed a say on something is just pathetic like should the flag be changed like it's really important, or should people be allowed to have weed. Why would I care if someone has weed, doctors prescribe it, the USA department of health has a patant on cannabinoids.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
31,872
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
(The Center Square) — The Louisiana Supreme Court has dismissed criminal charges against a pastor who defied Gov. John Bel Edwards’ coronavirus restrictions in 2020.

The high court’s 5-2 ruling found the governor’s executive orders limiting gatherings, first to 50 people then to 10, violated Rev. Tony Spell’s religious freedoms.

Spell drew national attention when he was arrested for ignoring Edwards’ COVID-19 edicts to hold Sunday service at his Life Tabernacle Church, where more than 1,200 people reportedly attended.


"Pandemic or not, this court cannot look the other way when the state infringes upon a citizen’s fundamental right to exercise his religion," the justices wrote in the decision released Friday, quoting Article I of the state constitution: "All government originates with the people, is founded on their will alone and is instituted to protect the rights of the individual and for the good of the whole."

Rest of the story here , Louisiana Supreme Court dismisses criminal charges against pastor for defying COVID-19 restrictions

Hallelujah!
 

Free

Member
From
AB, Canada
Gender
Male
Messages
14,314
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
:confusedWhat are you trying to say here ?
That a church which gathers during a pandemic, ignoring public health orders, is being selfish. Selfishness was already a huge problem in the Church and the pandemic has simply brought it to the fore. No Christian should be arguing to their rights when the health and lives of people are at stake. In fact, Christians should hardly ever (some say never) argue to their rights.
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
From
Central Minnesota, USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
12,735
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
That a church which gathers during a pandemic, ignoring public health orders, is being selfish. Selfishness was already a huge problem in the Church and the pandemic has simply brought it to the fore. No Christian should be arguing to their rights when the health and lives of people are at stake. In fact, Christians should hardly ever (some say never) argue to their rights.
I don't think this is necessarily true. Nobody is required to attend worship services but some churches, ours for example, took steps to reduce the potential risks to each other.
  1. We began to live stream our worship services so those who were not comfortable attending in person could still attend electronically and many took advantage of that. Some still do because of health concerns. The disadvantage for them was/is the inability to participate in Holy Communion.
  2. We closed off every other pew to maintain the recommended social distancing.
  3. We provided masks and hand sanitizer at the door for those who may have forgotten to bring their own and asked all who attended to use them.
  4. As difficult as it was, we discouraged our usual fellowshipping, and everyone cooperated nicely.
  5. We changed the process for distributing Holy Communion to maintain recommended social distancing and avoid subjecting the pastor and others to unnecessary exposure.
  6. We served the Communion wine in disposable cups so washing them was no longer necessary to protect those that would have had to wash them.
  7. We discontinued hymn singing as recommended per CDC guidelines.
We did not close our doors and for all of 2020 and up until when the mask requirements were recalled, we never had a single case of a Covid-19 infection among our congregation. In fact, the first known case where a congregant infected another was in August of 2021. I know because I was the smoking gun and didn't learn of it until about a week after my symptoms started and I had already infected numerous others. I've shared that story a couple times in other threads but I can share it again if you'd like.

Here's an example of some of the hypocrisy about this.

In California there were laws limiting church services to a maximum of 12 attendees and the services were required to be outdoors only. At the same time, casinos in California were allowed to operate at 50% capacity. Oh, I'm sure they were all socially distanced while gambling. :rolleyes Apparently, casinos are more important than church worship services.

Here's another one. A restaurant in LA spent thousands of dollars to create an outdoor venue to serve their customers and then ordered to shut it down. At the same time, in the lot right next door just a few feet away (same asphalt parking area) a movie production crew was allowed to set up picnic tables under a covered area to provide for their workers. Apparently, movie production must go on despite the pandemic while restaurants are not.
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
From
Central Minnesota, USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
12,735
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
I don't think it is selfish to continue worshipping our God. What would be selfish is to force all others to do the same against their own judgments. In our case we did everything we could to meet the needs of all without adding any laws or requirements or burdens upon them.
 

jasonc

Member
Christian
Yes
Messages
42,991
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Define essential?

Movie Maker,internet service provider , utilities,and also doctors ?

The state can't and didn't even fund me for a month of expenses consistently.

You can't expect those Like that too stay home and wait for money ,when unemployment doesn't fund it all.

My church didn't close for long and we accommodated those who wanted to wear masks and social distance .
.no one was forced to attend .

As one who if I my wife were to die ,likely as inclined as I am to be a hermit be one .but with PTSD that is the worse thing .I can assure you zoom and online interaction , especially social media are often bad for mental health .
 

Free

Member
From
AB, Canada
Gender
Male
Messages
14,314
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
I don't think this is necessarily true. Nobody is required to attend worship services but some churches, ours for example, took steps to reduce the potential risks to each other.
  1. We began to live stream our worship services so those who were not comfortable attending in person could still attend electronically and many took advantage of that. Some still do because of health concerns. The disadvantage for them was/is the inability to participate in Holy Communion.
  2. We closed off every other pew to maintain the recommended social distancing.
  3. We provided masks and hand sanitizer at the door for those who may have forgotten to bring their own and asked all who attended to use them.
  4. As difficult as it was, we discouraged our usual fellowshipping, and everyone cooperated nicely.
  5. We changed the process for distributing Holy Communion to maintain recommended social distancing and avoid subjecting the pastor and others to unnecessary exposure.
  6. We served the Communion wine in disposable cups so washing them was no longer necessary to protect those that would have had to wash them.
  7. We discontinued hymn singing as recommended per CDC guidelines.
We did not close our doors and for all of 2020 and up until when the mask requirements were recalled, we never had a single case of a Covid-19 infection among our congregation. In fact, the first known case where a congregant infected another was in August of 2021. I know because I was the smoking gun and didn't learn of it until about a week after my symptoms started and I had already infected numerous others. I've shared that story a couple times in other threads but I can share it again if you'd like.
I have no problem with churches which obeyed the government and followed health mandates; even better if they put in their own health measures without the government requiring it. With 1200 people at its services, it doesn't look like this church did so. And arguing to rights and freedoms while ignoring health measures is going to be bad for Christians in the long-run.

Here's an example of some of the hypocrisy about this.

In California there were laws limiting church services to a maximum of 12 attendees and the services were required to be outdoors only. At the same time, casinos in California were allowed to operate at 50% capacity. Oh, I'm sure they were all socially distanced while gambling. :rolleyes Apparently, casinos are more important than church worship services.

Here's another one. A restaurant in LA spent thousands of dollars to create an outdoor venue to serve their customers and then ordered to shut it down. At the same time, in the lot right next door just a few feet away (same asphalt parking area) a movie production crew was allowed to set up picnic tables under a covered area to provide for their workers. Apparently, movie production must go on despite the pandemic while restaurants are not.
That there was hypocrisy and seeming hypocrisy throughout the pandemic is without question. However, Christians and churches should not be counted among them, yet many are.

I don't think it is selfish to continue worshipping our God.
I completely agree, as long as loving our neighbour is the guiding ethic.

What would be selfish is to force all others to do the same against their own judgments.
And some churches essentially did this. If the services were/are being conducted in such a way that those who are vulnerable must either risk infection or stay home, then that is showing favoritism to the (so-called) healthy and not putting others' interests above our own, and is sin. If services are being conducted against government health mandates, then that is also sin.

I haven't been to a church service since I went to one or two last summer, which were the first times since the pandemic started, due to the frontline nature of my work. It would be utterly irresponsible of me to risk bringing infection into church, although I would more likely bring it from church into work. But still being in contact with some church people, I have heard stories of members making rude comments and giving dirty looks to those who still wear masks (all mandates have been removed where I live) at church. I experienced just last Wednesday when I went there for a funeral (some looked past me like I wasn't even there). There are also those who are either going to church sick with COVID or have family members at home with COVID. I'm not sure if I'll return to my church.

One of the problems at my church is the pastor's focus and main interest in worshiping God to the seeming exclusion of where congregants' hearts are at. Our worship is useless if our hearts aren't right and it appears there are many hearts at my church that aren't right. We cannot claim to love God and worship him when we do things in such a way that puts people's lives and health at risk.

In our case we did everything we could to meet the needs of all without adding any laws or requirements or burdens upon them.
Which is the correct course of action.
 
Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
That a church which gathers during a pandemic, ignoring public health orders, is being selfish. Selfishness was already a huge problem in the Church and the pandemic has simply brought it to the fore. No Christian should be arguing to their rights when the health and lives of people are at stake. In fact, Christians should hardly ever (some say never) argue to their rights.

I don't think anyone has ever argued about safe health practices, but it's if something works or not. I mean we started lockdown when the 1st community case was known. With all the harsh mandates an lockdowns what did it achieve?. I mean people still got 19 and still get 19 now. We have had over a million cases now , yet if I don't praise lockdowns and hard mandates people think I don't care about others peoples health or my own. There is a balance and steps people can take to try protect
themselves as best as possible.

For me it's never been about allowing people to do what they want, it's about balance where health and safety steps can also be taken. Like the example of a church service people can social distances, can have hand sanitizer, and people can wear masks. So people can worship there God and also taking steps to look after one anothers health.
 
Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Define essential?

Movie Maker,internet service provider , utilities,and also doctors ?

The state can't and didn't even fund me for a month of expenses consistently.

You can't expect those Like that too stay home and wait for money ,when unemployment doesn't fund it all.

My church didn't close for long and we accommodated those who wanted to wear masks and social distance .
.no one was forced to attend .

As one who if I my wife were to die ,likely as inclined as I am to be a hermit be one .but with PTSD that is the worse thing .I can assure you zoom and online interaction , especially social media are often bad for mental health .

I had no option but to work as I was casual so didn't get paid to stay home. I had to survive and pay bills and eat food. I didnt receive no payments. Why most people was home I was working, it was work and home to my small unit. No time out just get some peace of mind and go for a isolated walk along the beach or a fish. It would have been nice.
 
Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
And when there is balance you get less complainers. I mean like people can enter there own country but they have to quarantine. So they have there right to enter and health and safety practices are being used. Balance.
 

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
1,018
Joined
May 16, 2021
It really shows the worldliness of the church, doesn't it?

That a church which gathers during a pandemic, ignoring public health orders, is being selfish. Selfishness was already a huge problem in the Church and the pandemic has simply brought it to the fore. No Christian should be arguing to their rights when the health and lives of people are at stake. In fact, Christians should hardly ever (some say never) argue to their rights.
Ok , selfishness I can grasp what you are saying but I don't agree at all . Christians have rights in the USA , I can't speak for Canada .
 
Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
And then there the science behind some mandates. I would like to know where only 10, 20, 100 people allowed come from or 5, 10, 20, miles only allowed to travel. Or curfews where everything had to shut at like 10pm.

What about when a region was going to be locked down because it had community cases they gave everyone 24hrs notice and what did people do, they fled the city of course and went from the region that had community transmission around the rest of the country into other regions to escape lockdown. If you going to lockdown wouldnt it be better to just lockdown so people don't take it everywhere else if that's the idea to minimise the spread.
 

jasonc

Member
Christian
Yes
Messages
42,991
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
in the veterans support group. self care isnt and should never be assumed as selfish.

for me this would include physical personall interaction in church. as in my case, i seldom because one ptsd makes it hard for some to be social and others nigh impossible. i am on the hard side. isolation is where the demons of suicide comes in. death by suicide or covid? either way i am dead.
 
Messages
17,771
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
I have tried to be as fair as I can thinking of all people including mental health. That's why I think if someone wanted to go for a isolated peaceful walk in the park for some time out I couldn't see why they should not be allowed. I couldn't see how it's a risk to themselves or others. If a veteran needs some time out maybe they want to go for a peaceful walk along the beach.
 

jasonc

Member
Christian
Yes
Messages
42,991
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
I have photos of this. This is scheduled for demolition.it is an icon to locals .

There are paintings of it at several places as a means of protest .the state said it can't remain as the road it faces is being widened .the daughter of the owner of home behind it and this places said she is surprised it still stands . fortunately the business simply moved .I have photos of that
 
Top