Cultural interaction or not?

[Iconoclast]

We have progressively retreated into a pietistic bubble, concerned largely with eternal verities and keeping souls from hell, we have faithlessly limited Christ's jurisdiction to the institutional church. The result has been the marginalization of the Christian church and a change of religion in the public sphere.

This quote by Joe Boot indicates a misguided worldview.

Is it an accurate statement?

Do you think the church in general is on track?

 

[jasonc]

We have progressively retreated into a pietistic bubble, concerned largely with eternal verities and keeping souls from hell, we have faithlessly limited Christ's jurisdiction to the institutional church. The result has been the marginalization of the Christian church and a change of religion in the public sphere.

This quote by Joe Boot indicates a misguided worldview.

Is it an accurate statement?

Do you think the church in general is on track?

This is related to politics?

Gay rights and abortion ?

Not that like not approve .the problem is that making things illegal won't stop anyone .

I'm all for abortion being banned but a state being over zealous on what person I marry and or have a relationship with is not gonna be good .

Funny I have a book given to me about 1940 by a lady born in 1928.

The innocence projected about the club scene and how perfect idyllic life was in 40.
Something that never existed .

 

[Vinny37]

Some Christians are to focus internally [eternal verities]; some are to focus externally [keeping souls from hell]. Contra Boot, I think the latter illusionary, holding as I do that we can rescue folk into Level 3 (Christianity) from this-life hell, but not keep any from next-life hell (Level 4).

I feel that as the church we have—after the doubts of Wellhausen et al—been too reluctant for too long to assert biblical authority, to speak into moral philosophy and situations, and have hidden our light under a bushel. C S Lewis noted that the non-Christian world often gags Christians psychologically, seeking to make it a silent religion which will die out in a silent grave.

Christian judgement of people is of course somewhat limited inhouse (1 Cor.5:12), but that is predicated on a judgement of issues, moral standards, relevant to society at large. God’s jurisdiction—I am less sure about Christ’s—is global. Various Christians, eg John Stott, have tried with some success, to stir Christians into sharing the revelation of the moral standard, God, with common humanity. Natural Law (common perception: Level 1) is enhanced by biblical truth (Level 2-3). We should speak out qua citizens, howbeit citizens with higher insights, brighter light.

For instance on divorce, we seldom question whether marriage to another after a divorce, is morally permitted, or whether residual marital obligations after non-biblical divorce, preclude any sexual union other than sexual reunion. Common humanity is incapable of defining marriage, let alone divorce, often confusing subjectivism—But sun it is not, when you say it is not, And the moon changes even as your mind—with objectivism (the intrinsic). Hollywood proclaims its own subjectivism as if God’s voice, without much church challenge. Rome continues to offer its imperfect critique on moral issues at large, and IMO does more good than harm.

In toto, I’d reword Boot somewhat, but in the West agree his underlying point (societal disconnect). I doubt that the church is “on track”, but believe that the old bones are often shaking together, and that some Christian bodies actually breathe out deific life into society (Ezk.37:5). Would that we arose as one, in proper connect and life.

We have progressively retreated into a pietistic bubble, concerned largely with eternal verities and keeping souls from hell, we have faithlessly limited Christ's jurisdiction to the institutional church. The result has been the marginalization of the Christian church and a change of religion in the public sphere.

This quote by Joe Boot indicates a misguided worldview.

Is it an accurate statement?

Do you think the church in general is on track?

 

[Iconoclast]

This is related to politics?

Gay rights and abortion ?

Not that like not approve .the problem is that making things illegal won't stop anyone .

I'm all for abortion being banned but a state being over zealous on what person I marry and or have a relationship with is not gonna be good .

Funny I have a book given to me about 1940 by a lady born in 1928.

The innocence projected about the club scene and how perfect idyllic life was in 40.
Something that never existed .

Hello Jasonc,

I am putting this out on the forum as I have been concerned about this for several years.
All that you have mentioned plus more comes into play.
Another way of asking this is. We have been given the Great Commission....Go into all the world and preach the gospel...so how do we engage the culture?
What is our Biblical worldview?
What about separation from the ungodly?
We are in the world , but not of it so how does this affect our evangelism, or does it not?
Does our current understanding change how we see this responsibility?

 

[jasonc]

Hello Jasonc,

I am putting this out on the forum as I have been concerned about this for several years.
All that you have mentioned plus more comes into play.
Another way of asking this is. We have been given the Great Commission....Go into all the world and preach the gospel...so how do we engage the culture?
What is our Biblical worldview?
What about separation from the ungodly?
We are in the world , but not of it so how does this affect our evangelism, or does it not?
Does our current understanding change how we see this responsibility?

I never said we shouldnt witness .sadly even in my reformed denomation that's a problem .not in my church but Im sure winning souls could be better if all in my church did witness with words .

 

[Iconoclast]

Some Christians are to focus internally [eternal verities]; some are to focus externally [keeping souls from hell]. Contra Boot, I think the latter illusionary, holding as I do that we can rescue folk into Level 3 (Christianity) from this-life hell, but not keep any from next-life hell (Level 4).

I feel that as the church we have—after the doubts of Wellhausen et al—been too reluctant for too long to assert biblical authority, to speak into moral philosophy and situations, and have hidden our light under a bushel. C S Lewis noted that the non-Christian world often gags Christians psychologically, seeking to make it a silent religion which will die out in a silent grave.

Christian judgement of people is of course somewhat limited inhouse (1 Cor.5:12), but that is predicated on a judgement of issues, moral standards, relevant to society at large. God’s jurisdiction—I am less sure about Christ’s—is global. Various Christians, eg John Stott, have tried with some success, to stir Christians into sharing the revelation of the moral standard, God, with common humanity. Natural Law (common perception: Level 1) is enhanced by biblical truth (Level 2-3). We should speak out qua citizens, howbeit citizens with higher insights, brighter light.

For instance on divorce, we seldom question whether marriage to another after a divorce, is morally permitted, or whether residual marital obligations after non-biblical divorce, preclude any sexual union other than sexual reunion. Common humanity is incapable of defining marriage, let alone divorce, often confusing subjectivism—But sun it is not, when you say it is not, And the moon changes even as your mind—with objectivism (the intrinsic). Hollywood proclaims its own subjectivism as if God’s voice, without much church challenge. Rome continues to offer its imperfect critique on moral issues at large, and IMO does more good than harm.

In toto, I’d reword Boot somewhat, but in the West agree his underlying point (societal disconnect). I doubt that the church is “on track”, but believe that the old bones are often shaking together, and that some Christian bodies actually breathe out deific life into society (Ezk.37:5). Would that we arose as one, in proper connect and life.

Hello Vinny,
I do not think we have interacted before. Thank you for this fine, thought-provoking quote.
This is the very helpful input I was hoping for.

[I feel that as the church we have—after the doubts of Wellhausen et al—been too reluctant for too long to assert biblical authority, to speak into moral philosophy and situations, and have hidden our light under a bushel. C S Lewis noted that the non-Christian world often gags Christians psychologically, seeking to make it a silent religion which will die out in a silent grave.]
Yes, we are tolerated unless or until we become vocal.I am not a church critic, but if we are our brothers keeper we should seek to encourage one another to be all about the Gospel of the Kingdom.
If you have found any other good sources or reading material on this topic, as time permits could you make such available. Thank You, Vinny
{Christian judgement of people is of course somewhat limited inhouse (1 Cor.5:12), but that is predicated on a judgement of issues, moral standards, relevant to society at large. God’s jurisdiction—I am less sure about Christ’s—is global. Various Christians, eg John Stott, have tried with some success, to stir Christians into sharing the revelation of the moral standard, God, with common humanity. Natural Law (common perception: Level 1) is enhanced by biblical truth (Level 2-3). We should speak out qua citizens, howbeit citizens with higher insights, brighter light.}
Well yes, we must bring God's light to bear on issues in our day.
This last sentence are you saying we should primarily only put forth the best and brightest as spokespersons in the public sphere, or am I missing where you are pointing to?

 

[Iconoclast]

I never said we shouldnt witness .sadly even in my reformed denomination that's a problem .not in my church but Im sure winning souls could be better if all in my church did witness with words .

Jason...where you assemble, are they older , worn-out saints, or are they caught up with the cares of this world? Why do you think there is a lack of witness?

 

[jasonc]

Jason...where you assemble, are they older , worn-out saints, or are they caught up with the cares of this world? Why do you think there is a lack of witness?

Pastor quotes statistics and no it's not a dead church .he came in a three years ago we have a pantry and something we didn't do before .perfect ? No just always room to have more pulling the yolk of the vision .

We have imho need of a Sunday school teacher .

 

[Hopeful]

We have progressively retreated into a pietistic bubble, concerned largely with eternal verities and keeping souls from hell, we have faithlessly limited Christ's jurisdiction to the institutional church. The result has been the marginalization of the Christian church and a change of religion in the public sphere.
This quote by Joe Boot indicates a misguided worldview.

Not everyone is drawn to God.

Is it an accurate statement?

Anything outside of the church is not under Christ's domain.
So it is not a true statement.

Do you think the church in general is on track?

The real one is on track.
Praise be to God !

 

[jasonc]

God either reins over all or none .

 

[Iconoclast]

Not everyone is drawn to God.

Anything outside of the church is not under Christ's domain.
So it is not a true statement.

The real one is on track.
Praise be to God !

Hello Hopeful,
Thanks for your response. Now if I could press you for some clarification of your position. There is no right or wrong answer on this....

[Anything outside of the church is not under Christ's domain.
So it is not a true statement.]

Where do you see in scripture the boundaries or guidelines as to what can be rightly said to be under "Christs domain".

Is that based on a certain end time view?

Is there a time or location where things are "under Christ's domain"

Does Jesus as King only rule in the Church?

Do you see Jesus as King now, or sometime in the future?

If time permits, feel free to lay out a short timeline as you see it?

In fact any reader feel free to answer these same questions and if possible lay out a short timeline of your understanding on this. Thank you.
Maybe i should have made a poll question on this theme...I do not know how to do it.

When and where does Christ's Kingdom exist? when and where does it extend?

 

[Iconoclast]

God either reins over all or none .

Could you expand on this answer like mentioned in post11

 

[jasonc]

Could you expand on this answer like mentioned in post11

The earth and the fullness therein are mine.

All souls are mine .heaven is my throne ,the earth my footstool..

I raise up nations ..nations are but a drop to me

 

[Tenchi]

We have progressively retreated into a pietistic bubble, concerned largely with eternal verities and keeping souls from hell, we have faithlessly limited Christ's jurisdiction to the institutional church. The result has been the marginalization of the Christian church and a change of religion in the public sphere.

This quote by Joe Boot indicates a misguided worldview.

Is it an accurate statement?

Do you think the church in general is on track?

No, I think Joe is quite in error, actually. There may be some churches that have "retreated into a pietistic bubble," but, by-and-large, the modern, western, Christian Church (Protestant) has grown carnal, profoundly spiritually-juvenile and worldly and this is reflected in an inward focus, a self-serving orientation of resources that appeals to the consumerist/relativistic mentality of the individual "Christian" who has been deeply penetrated by these ideas, coming to them from secular, western culture. As the Church has taken on this worldly, self-serving character, it has increasingly nothing to offer the World that the World doesn't already have. And so, the Church has become uninteresting, impotent, and crowded from public view to the margins of western society.

The Church will never be popular with the World. The message of the Cross is anathema to the World and its "prince," the devil. In fact, when the Church is acting as it should, it will be persecuted and marginalized - but for the best of reasons, not, as in the present situation, for the worst of them. Under such suffering the Church manifests the power of God in ways it cannot within the spiritually-stifling conditions of ease and affluence.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Hopeful,
Thanks for your response. Now if I could press you for some clarification of your position. There is no right or wrong answer on this....

[Anything outside of the church is not under Christ's domain.
So it is not a true statement.]

Where do you see in scripture the boundaries or guidelines as to what can be rightly said to be under "Christs domain".

Is that based on a certain end time view?

Is there a time or location where things are "under Christ's domain"

Does Jesus as King only rule in the Church?

Do you see Jesus as King now, or sometime in the future?

If time permits, feel free to lay out a short timeline as you see it?

In fact any reader feel free to answer these same questions and if possible lay out a short timeline of your understanding on this. Thank you.
Maybe i should have made a poll question on this theme...I do not know how to do it.

When and where does Christ's Kingdom exist? when and where does it extend?

Tenchi and Vinny37 have said everything I believe to be true.

I'm interested in the Kingdom of God, which Jesus spoke of frequently and was one of the main reasons He came to us,,,to teach us how to be a part of it.

I'm answering the questions on the Kingdom.

1. In a real sense everything is under Christ's domain. By this I mean that God can do as He wills in every regard. He does leave us to our own devices in managing this earth however, which is why things are how they are,,,mankind is not so good at management of its own sin nature, and it spills out into our world system.

So we're left with Christ's domain being literally functional only in His Body, His Church capital C,
And I see problems even there.

2. Jesus as King rules only in the church.

3. Jesus will rule as King in the new earth or Jerusalrm, after the end.

4. The Kingdom of God exists right here, right now. Jesus meant to establish God's Kingdom here on earth for those who wish to follow Him and be His disciples. It's an invisible, spiritual kingdom where His laws are followed by His followers, thus creating a world paradigm consisting of persons willing to worship God and give of themselves in order to create better conditions for all of humankind.

Thanks for a good thread.

 

[jasonc]

He rules all.
Plenty of unsolved crimes never are .
God served justice to those when they die .

 

[Iconoclast]

No, I think Joe is quite in error, actually. There may be some churches that have "retreated into a pietistic bubble," but, by-and-large, the modern, western, Christian Church (Protestant) has grown carnal, profoundly spiritually-juvenile and worldly and this is reflected in an inward focus, a self-serving orientation of resources that appeals to the consumerist/relativistic mentality of the individual "Christian" who has been deeply penetrated by these ideas, coming to them from secular, western culture. As the Church has taken on this worldly, self-serving character, it has increasingly nothing to offer the World that the World doesn't already have. And so, the Church has become uninteresting, impotent, and crowded from public view to the margins of western society.

The Church will never be popular with the World. The message of the Cross is anathema to the World and its "prince," the devil. In fact, when the Church is acting as it should, it will be persecuted and marginalized - but for the best of reasons, not, as in the present situation, for the worst of them. Under such suffering the Church manifests the power of God in ways it cannot within the spiritually-stifling conditions of ease and affluence.

Hello Tenchi,
Thanks for this good and timely feedback.
I am afraid you might be right.
A church that is inwardly focused turns into a coffin.


[As the Church has taken on this worldly, self-serving character, it has increasingly nothing to offer the World that the World doesn't already have. And so, the Church has become uninteresting, impotent, and crowded from public view to the margins of western society.]

It is easy to compromise and not take a godly stand.
Do you feel your view of end times influences how you view the churches or have you been observing this for years.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tenchi and Vinny37 have said everything I believe to be true.

I'm interested in the Kingdom of God, which Jesus spoke of frequently and was one of the main reasons He came to us,,,to teach us how to be a part of it.

I'm answering the questions on the Kingdom.

1. In a real sense everything is under Christ's domain. By this I mean that God can do as He wills in every regard. He does leave us to our own devices in managing this earth however, which is why things are how they are,,,mankind is not so good at management of its own sin nature, and it spills out into our world system.

So we're left with Christ's domain being literally functional only in His Body, His Church capital C,
And I see problems even there.

2. Jesus as King rules only in the church.

3. Jesus will rule as King in the new earth or Jerusalrm, after the end.

4. The Kingdom of God exists right here, right now. Jesus meant to establish God's Kingdom here on earth for those who wish to follow Him and be His disciples. It's an invisible, spiritual kingdom where His laws are followed by His followers, thus creating a world paradigm consisting of persons willing to worship God and give of themselves in order to create better conditions for all of humankind.

Thanks for a good thread.

Hello Wondering,
Thanks for your response on this vital topic.
It is good we can react and discuss without be adversarial.
I am waiting to respond to my own thread, because everyone is really giving good feedback on this.
I have been trying to sharpen my gospel of the Kingdom, presentation and this is a large part of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Wondering,
Thanks for your response on this vital topic.
It is good we can react and discuss without be adversarial.
I am waiting to respond to my own thread, because everyone is really giving good feedback on this.
I have been trying to sharpen my gospel of the Kingdom, presentation and this is a large part of it.

I noticed a few years ago that Jesus spoke little of salvation, and a lot of the Kingdom. It was shocking when I first noticed it, but it does make perfect sense. Not to belittle the salvation aspect of course.

The OT foreshadowed Jesus in many ways...I'm sure you know this.

I think that THIS Kingdom, here, is a type of foreshadowing of the true Kindom that will be on earth after the end of this world. We can't imagine how wonderful it will be if this is only a small taste.

 

[Iconoclast]

I noticed a few years ago that Jesus spoke little of salvation, and a lot of the Kingdom. It was shocking when I first noticed it, but it does make perfect sense. Not to belittle the salvation aspect of course.

The OT foreshadowed Jesus in many ways...I'm sure you know this.

I think that THIS Kingdom, here, is a type of foreshadowing of the true Kindom that will be on earth after the end of this world. We can't imagine how wonderful it will be if this is only a small taste.

This can be a whole thread all by itself.
My end times view was challenged and changed at least 10-15 years ago.
I was first taught what is known as dispensational premillenialism. I was told that it alone was true.
I found out that it had not been held as dominant in Church history.
I can still teach that system, although I think it is not the most accurate.

We run around speaking about salvation, getting saved, being born again.

The NT. speaks of the gospel of the Kingdom instead....
mk1:
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts28
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.