Debating with nonbelievers

[Tristan]

This will be long so get comfortable.

I have spent the years of my short life in frequent debate with nonbelievers of all stripes (many of them quite intelligent). Millions of words have been exchanged, most of them online in forums like these. It's a hard, unforgiving field of battle and many of us find ourselves there at some point in our lives. I'd like to share some my experiences and wisdom from these exchanges so that perhaps others can find it easier to communicate with these people.

"...I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some." -1 Corinthians 9:22 ESV

We live in a world that is filled with nihilism (which simply put means All is meaningless. There is no objective purpose for life. In fact the supporters of nihilism that are more serious say that there is no meaning at all! Most people seem to be nihilists. They see life as meaningless and it's all about pleasure and satisfaction right now. How can I better myself? It's a dark existence, and many people are right in the middle of it, some of them comfortable with that understanding.

This usually goes hand in hand with materialism. In order for them to back up that there is no meaning in life, they have to resort to materialism...which is basically saying that there is only a physical world with physical things. I've found in my travels that most people are materialists (or empiricists who require ONLY empirical evidence.)

I've found a way to overcome these objections, and I'll explain why it's important that we do further on. If we want to minister to nonbelievers in the postmodern age, we have to be able to speak to their heart AND mind.

If all that we are is matter in motion, how do we distinguish between different things? What makes a cathedral different from a glass of wine? Pure material doesn't "know" anything. It's all made of the same core building blocks. Nobody has ever been able to answer when I ask: "What are you appealing to in order to make that distinction?" I have a simple answer if they ask me back. We have a nonphysical mind and a physical body. Love doesn't exist physically. Justice doesn't exist physically. There ARE nonphysical things in existence. We reference them all the time. When I love someone, I am appealing to an abstract concept...the concept of love.

It is important the we all understand that there is more to the universe than just what we can experience empirically (and I ask empiricists all the time why we need ONLY empirical evidence...they never have a good answer). Having a nonphysical mind makes spirituality legitimate. It opens up a whole bunch of opportunities for us to minister to people. In fact, we already do it to a certain extent. We make friends with people. We love them and care for them and help them. We're already helping them spiritually. It's just that I try to help people understand the extent of what we're appealing to.

I got tired of people making fun of the fact that I was contradicting science and clinging to "faith". It made me look foolish and after a while I realized that they were probably right. How am I supposed to minister to all these people that are essentially nihilists? They will not be convinced unless I can match them intellectually. My God is a genius. Why can't he stand up to scrutiny?

I don't believe in apologetics. We shouldn't be defending our faith. We should be on the attack. Why AREN'T people Christians? We need to show them what they're missing. We need to show them what it's like to be a Christian. What's the benefit? Why should you be moral? Where do your ethics come from? Press them a little bit.

"but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect," -1 Peter 3:15

I always have an answer when someone asks me. I've debated on their terms, and showed them that they do not stand on the solid ground of logic and reason. This isn't to say that no faith is involved, it's more that logic and reason complement my faith and support it. I have faith and I can back it up!

God bless!

 

[Nathanael Chong]

Tristan, I agree with what you are saying. However (I do not mean to say this strongly), I believe that we should not only be "on the attack", but also defend our faith. The Scripture that you have quoted, 1 Peter 3:15, tell us to be prepared to make a defense for our faith. So when others attack us, we will be able to answer. Yes, challenging other faiths is good, however let us not forget that if we do not defend our faith, our arguments of pointing out flaws in other "religions" will back fire.
As for the rest, I totally agree with you.
God Bless!

 

[Tristan]

It's not so much pointing out the other flaws as it is demonstrating to them that they cannot sit on a 'high horse' with us because we need faith. They need faith too...in fact they are full of faith.

 

[Nathanael Chong]

True

 

[WIP]

I don't know if it is of much value at all to point out the flaws in other beliefs. Let me illustrate. Suppose you were a manager charged with the task of filling a vacancy for a position at your company. You have spent time reading through a pile of applications and resumes and have narrowed your search down to a hand full of finalists so you invite them to come in for a personal interview. After introductions and pleasantries are done you sit down with your applicant across the desk from you. You look him in the eye and ask him, "Tell me, why should I hire you?" What would your reaction be if he began his response with, "Well, all those other applicants.....," and from that moment forward spent the next couple hours telling you his impression of why you should not hire the other guys?

I figure Jesus is our example. Did he focus on what not to believe or did he concentrate on what to believe?

 

[stovebolts]

This will be long so get comfortable.

I don't believe in apologetics. We shouldn't be defending our faith. We should be on the attack. Why AREN'T people Christians? We need to show them what they're missing. We need to show them what it's like to be a Christian. What's the benefit? Why should you be moral? Where do your ethics come from? Press them a little bit.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo,I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Proverbs 9:8-9 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still; teach the righteous and they will add to their learning.

How did Jesus teach us to make disciples when he sent them out?

Matthew 10:12-14 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

If you are serious about making disciples, I would suggest this book.
http://www.walkingasjesus.com/v1/

I just came back from a conference and listened to this guy for 6 hours. Its some pretty amazing stuff and its modeled on how Jesus taught his disciples to disciple. The book is sitting on my dresser and is next in line to be read / studied. BTW, the above scriptures are my take on your statement that we should be attacking non-christians. I know you didn't mean it as attack in a bad way, but it does sound kinda violent lol!

 

[Vaccine]

"We have to be able to speak to their hearts AND minds"
So true. A person could entrench themselves in a position that God is just another term for lack of knowledge. That is a hard person to reach without appealing to both their heart and mind. Good post, thanks for sharing.

 

[Sparkey]

• Don't snatch or grab at their baby. That's gonna get your hand slapped if you do, nothing more.
• Have you even seen a dog with a bone? Let the bone alone. Speak the truth in kindness.
• Don't try to break down walls on your own. There are snakes in walls. You will be bit.

What did Paul do when he founded the church in Rome? Did he not ponder their 'sacred' beliefs and show them the better way? Consider the "unknown god" and tell them what you know of Him. That's a skilled representation of how a man, filled with compassion and understanding, presented the truth that was delivered to him.

I recently was a paid canvasser who joined a team of politicians that supported the environment. I'm not political but it seemed an honorable way to make me some money (which I do need). "We" were opposed to 'the coal trains' and when I spoke to one house owner (and voter) she said, "You just can't stop the coal train," and pointed out (with much pride) that people seldom took that into consideration.

I had to pause because we were talking about her "special thought" and I needed to take my own advice and avoid trying to grab at or snatch her baby. My reply was that I would have to agree, that there was much effort and that we in Whatcom county (a small portion of the state of Washington) did not have the authority to stop it all together. Coal would continue to be mined and sold no matter what we said.

Instead of opposition my reply focused on what could be done. I spoke of clean water and Lake Whatcom. That's the source of the best water I know and it comes directly from the tap, better than the fake store-bought water by far. I spoke of our duty to help preserve its quality. By narrowing the focus to what could be done mine was the pleasure of recording that her vote was certain and now found in favor of the environment and strongly supportive.

Don't snatch their baby.

~Sparrow