Development of Doctrine

[Mungo]

Development of Doctrine
Jesus didn’t write a detailed theology manual, neither did the apostles. Instead they left a body of teaching , some of which was written down and later canonised as inspired writing.

The Church taught from this “Deposit of Faith”. As heresies arose they had to be countered and much effort of the early Church was spent on countering heresies, especially those on the nature of Christ (Adoptionism, Appolinarism, Arianism, Docetism, Nestorianism, Sabellianism and more).

In the second century two great apologists wrote extensively against heresy. St. Irenaeus write a five volume “Against Heresies” and Justin Martyr wrote two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew).

When the Church was no longer persecuted the bishops of the Church could get together in great councils and began to formally define many doctrines but mostly in opposition to heresy, particularly about the nature of God, and Jesus in particular.

Quotes below in are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The First Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 325)
To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios)

The Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I, 381)
It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

The Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431)
….. defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon (451)
…. defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches

The Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553)
Condemned various writings and … confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople III, 680-681)
It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.

So well into the 7th century the Church was still fighting heresy about the nature of God and Christ. It is not surprising therefore that other topics such as original sin and Mary took time to develop in understanding and formal definitions.


Doctrine develops
“Is there to be no development of Doctrine in Christ’s Church? Certainly there should be great development.

Who could be so grudging towards his fellow-men and so hostile to God as to try to prevent it? But care should be taken to ensure that it is development of the faith and not alteration. Development implies that each point of doctrine is expanded within itself, while alteration suggests that a thing has been changed from what it was into something different…….

The limbs of infants are tiny, while those of young men are large, but they are the same limbs. The man has no more parts to his body than the little child…as a result it can be said that nothing new is produced in old men that was not already present in an undeveloped form when they were boys…..” (St. Vincent Lerins - died 445)

 

[jaybo]

Development of Doctrine
Jesus didn’t write a detailed theology manual, neither did the apostles. Instead they left a body of teaching , some of which was written down and later canonised as inspired writing.

The Church taught from this “Deposit of Faith”. As heresies arose they had to be countered and much effort of the early Church was spent on countering heresies, especially those on the nature of Christ (Adoptionism, Appolinarism, Arianism, Docetism, Nestorianism, Sabellianism and more).

In the second century two great apologists wrote extensively against heresy. St. Irenaeus write a five volume “Against Heresies” and Justin Martyr wrote two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew).

When the Church was no longer persecuted the bishops of the Church could get together in great councils and began to formally define many doctrines but mostly in opposition to heresy, particularly about the nature of God, and Jesus in particular.

Quotes below in are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The First Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 325)
To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios)

The Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I, 381)
It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

The Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431)
….. defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon (451)
…. defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches

The Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553)
Condemned various writings and … confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople III, 680-681)
It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.

So well into the 7th century the Church was still fighting heresy about the nature of God and Christ. It is not surprising therefore that other topics such as original sin and Mary took time to develop in understanding and formal definitions.


Doctrine develops
“Is there to be no development of Doctrine in Christ’s Church? Certainly there should be great development.

Who could be so grudging towards his fellow-men and so hostile to God as to try to prevent it? But care should be taken to ensure that it is development of the faith and not alteration. Development implies that each point of doctrine is expanded within itself, while alteration suggests that a thing has been changed from what it was into something different…….

The limbs of infants are tiny, while those of young men are large, but they are the same limbs. The man has no more parts to his body than the little child…as a result it can be said that nothing new is produced in old men that was not already present in an undeveloped form when they were boys…..” (St. Vincent Lerins - died 445)

When you write "the Church" you mean the Catholic denomination, correct?

The church is defined as the body of Christ -- all believers. It is not limited to your denomination.

1 Corinthians 12:12, "For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ."

1 Corinthians 12:27, "Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it."

Ephesians 5:23, "For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body."

Colossians 1:24, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am supplementing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions in behalf of His body, which is the church."

Colossians 3:15, "Let the peace of Christ, to which you were indeed called in one body, rule in your hearts; and be thankful."

Remember that a) these words were written before the formation of the Catholic denomination and b) "Catholic" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Mungo]

When you write "the Church" you mean the Catholic denomination, correct?

The church is defined as the body of Christ -- all believers. It is not limited to your denomination.

1 Corinthians 12:12, "For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ."

1 Corinthians 12:27, "Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it."

Ephesians 5:23, "For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body."

Colossians 1:24, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am supplementing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions in behalf of His body, which is the church."

Colossians 3:15, "Let the peace of Christ, to which you were indeed called in one body, rule in your hearts; and be thankful."

Remember that a) these words were written before the formation of the Catholic denomination and b) "Catholic" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture.

I guessed right!
I guessed you would pile in with some pathetic whinge.
The topic is the Development of Doctrine.

 

[jaybo]

I guessed right!
I guessed you would pile in with some pathetic whinge.
The topic is the Development of Doctrine.

Congratulations, you guessed correctly!

By "Development of Doctrine" you of course mean Catholic denomination doctrine, so why not make the tile correct, as in "Development of Catholic Doctrine", which of course is just the opinions of your priests.

Here is an online definition of "doctrine: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma Catholic doctrine."

 

[Mungo]

Congratulations, you guessed correctly!

By "Development of Doctrine" you of course mean Catholic denomination doctrine, so why not make the tile correct, as in "Development of Catholic Doctrine", which of course is just the opinions of your priests.

Here is an online definition of "doctrine: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma Catholic doctrine."

All the Councils I quoted from are fully accepted by the (Eastern) Orthodox.

Of course Protestant doctrines weren't invented until the Reformation, and then "developed" at an alarming rate until we now have 40,000+ Protestant denominations, sects, cults and one pastor churches teaching contradictory doctrines.

 

[jaybo]

All the Councils I quoted from are fully accepted by the (Eastern) Orthodox.

Of course Protestant doctrines weren't invented until the Reformation, and then "developed" at an alarming rate until we now have 40,000+ Protestant denominations, sects, cults and one pastor churches teaching contradictory doctrines.

Obviously you're not familiar with the New Testament. There are many churches listed in the Mediterranean region, and there were most probably others not listed in the Bible.

It doesn't matter if Protestants disagree with each other. In fact, it's a badge of honor! We're actually capable of independent thought!!!

You Catholics believe only what you're told to believe by your clergy. In fact, the many errors of your denomination were the reason Protestantism began. Hallelujah!!!

 

[Benadam]

"I am for Paul.." "I am for Apollo's" Paul taught that is not the image of the Church.
That is a deformation.
It happened again " " I am for Luther" "I am for Calvin". And now, that image is mistaken as "how it's supposed to be'.

 

[GodsGrace]

Development of Doctrine
Jesus didn’t write a detailed theology manual, neither did the apostles. Instead they left a body of teaching , some of which was written down and later canonised as inspired writing.

The Church taught from this “Deposit of Faith”. As heresies arose they had to be countered and much effort of the early Church was spent on countering heresies, especially those on the nature of Christ (Adoptionism, Appolinarism, Arianism, Docetism, Nestorianism, Sabellianism and more).

In the second century two great apologists wrote extensively against heresy. St. Irenaeus write a five volume “Against Heresies” and Justin Martyr wrote two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew).

When the Church was no longer persecuted the bishops of the Church could get together in great councils and began to formally define many doctrines but mostly in opposition to heresy, particularly about the nature of God, and Jesus in particular.

Quotes below in are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The First Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 325)
To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios)

The Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I, 381)
It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

The Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431)
….. defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon (451)
…. defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches

The Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553)
Condemned various writings and … confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople III, 680-681)
It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.

So well into the 7th century the Church was still fighting heresy about the nature of God and Christ. It is not surprising therefore that other topics such as original sin and Mary took time to develop in understanding and formal definitions.


Doctrine develops
“Is there to be no development of Doctrine in Christ’s Church? Certainly there should be great development.

Who could be so grudging towards his fellow-men and so hostile to God as to try to prevent it? But care should be taken to ensure that it is development of the faith and not alteration. Development implies that each point of doctrine is expanded within itself, while alteration suggests that a thing has been changed from what it was into something different…….

The limbs of infants are tiny, while those of young men are large, but they are the same limbs. The man has no more parts to his body than the little child…as a result it can be said that nothing new is produced in old men that was not already present in an undeveloped form when they were boys…..” (St. Vincent Lerins - died 445)

Let me ask a simple question Mungo.

Who do you trust more?
The writers of the CCC or the Early Fathers?

I'll say right now that I'm in tune with the Early Fathers.
Some doctrine had to be defined....
but the church also went out of its way.

I'm not too sure doctrine should develop.
Maybe John Calvin developed some doctrine??

For me it goes back to the ECFs.

 

[jaybo]

"I am for Paul.." "I am for Apollo's" Paul taught that is not the image of the Church.
That is a deformation.
It happened again " " I am for Luther" "I am for Calvin". And now, that image is mistaken as true instead of false.

As far as I understand it, none of the authors of Scripture, including Paul, are alive (on Earth) today.

I consider myself a Christian, meaning I am in Christ; I am part of His body.

You cite Luther and Calvin, but there are many other teachers, past and present, each of whom claims to understand the truth and have correct doctrine. I am, for lack of a better term, non-denominational.

I follow the teachings of the word of God, i.e., Scripture, not the teachings of men. It's not important to me what men or women teach, as none of them are infallible. Only the word of God is infallible.

Sola scriptura.

 

[GodsGrace]

"I am for Paul.." "I am for Apollo's" Paul taught that is not the image of the Church.
That is a deformation.
It happened again " " I am for Luther" "I am for Calvin". And now, that image is mistaken as "how it's supposed to be'.

I agree 100%.

But I also have to say that I think the reformation was necessary.
Perhaps Luther believed he could change the church from the inside out - I don't know enough of this history.
But I do believe the CC had wandered far from its beginnings.

This saddens me, I will say.

 

[GodsGrace]

As far as I understand it, none of the authors of Scripture, including Paul, are alive (on Earth) today.

I consider myself a Christian, meaning I am in Christ; I am part of His body.

You cite Luther and Calvin, but there are many other teachers, past and present, each of whom claims to understand the truth and have correct doctrine. I am, for lack of a better term, non-denominational.

I follow the teachings of the word of God, i.e., Scripture, not the teachings of men. It's not important to me what men or women teach, as none of them are infallible. Only the word of God is infallible.

Sola scriptura.

As I see problems with every "denomination", I am quickly becoming non-denominational.

Can't be Catholic if you don't agree with all its doctrine.
Protestantism is full of problems too.

I like your idea.
Follow God and live for Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Development of Doctrine
Jesus didn’t write a detailed theology manual, neither did the apostles. Instead they left a body of teaching , some of which was written down and later canonised as inspired writing.

The Church taught from this “Deposit of Faith”. As heresies arose they had to be countered and much effort of the early Church was spent on countering heresies, especially those on the nature of Christ (Adoptionism, Appolinarism, Arianism, Docetism, Nestorianism, Sabellianism and more).

In the second century two great apologists wrote extensively against heresy. St. Irenaeus write a five volume “Against Heresies” and Justin Martyr wrote two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew).

When the Church was no longer persecuted the bishops of the Church could get together in great councils and began to formally define many doctrines but mostly in opposition to heresy, particularly about the nature of God, and Jesus in particular.

Quotes below in are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The First Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 325)
To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios)

The Second Ecumenical Council (Constantinople I, 381)
It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

The Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431)
….. defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon (451)
…. defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches

The Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople II, 553)
Condemned various writings and … confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople III, 680-681)
It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.

So well into the 7th century the Church was still fighting heresy about the nature of God and Christ. It is not surprising therefore that other topics such as original sin and Mary took time to develop in understanding and formal definitions.


Doctrine develops
“Is there to be no development of Doctrine in Christ’s Church? Certainly there should be great development.

Who could be so grudging towards his fellow-men and so hostile to God as to try to prevent it? But care should be taken to ensure that it is development of the faith and not alteration. Development implies that each point of doctrine is expanded within itself, while alteration suggests that a thing has been changed from what it was into something different…….

The limbs of infants are tiny, while those of young men are large, but they are the same limbs. The man has no more parts to his body than the little child…as a result it can be said that nothing new is produced in old men that was not already present in an undeveloped form when they were boys…..” (St. Vincent Lerins - died 445)

I'd like to add that many times I've stated that were it not for the CC we would have no true Christianity today.
Who knows what we'd have...there were so many heresies to ward off.

I'm sorry that our Protestant brothers and sisters cannot accept that the CC is the first church and, in the beginning, did much good for our faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Obviously you're not familiar with the New Testament. There are many churches listed in the Mediterranean region, and there were most probably others not listed in the Bible.

It doesn't matter if Protestants disagree with each other. In fact, it's a badge of honor! We're actually capable of independent thought!!!

You Catholics believe only what you're told to believe by your clergy. In fact, the many errors of your denomination were the reason Protestantism began. Hallelujah!!!

Jaybo,
it does matter if Protestants don't agree with each other.
When there is more than one truth...
there is no truth.

 

[Benadam]

What was always believed becomes more certain that characterizes authentic development of doctrine.
if a development of doctrine requires that what was always believed is false it's not a development of faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

What was always believed becomes more certain that characterizes authentic development of doctrine.
if a development of doctrine requires that what was always believed is false it's not a development of faith.

How would you characterize confession?
It changed over time.
There was no true confession at the beginning...

The Didache states to confess our sins in the congregation and to not come to prayer with an evil conscience.
90AD approx

Clement of Rome said that Jesus desires nothing more than that sins be confessed to Him (Jesus).
96AD

"I bent my knees and once again confessesd my sins to God, as I had done before".
Hermas 150AD

Sins were confessed publically.
Tertullian 198AD
Irenaeus 180AD

In smaller sins, sinners may come to public confession according to the rules of discipline.
Cyprian 250AD

Which method would be correct??

 

[WIP]

I'd like to add that many times I've stated that were it not for the CC we would have no true Christianity today.
Who knows what we'd have...there were so many heresies to ward off.

I'm not convinced that the Catholic church of today is true Christianity and that there are some heresies that have invaded over the centuries. I believe that was part of what Martin Luther was trying to point out but the church would have nothing to do with it. Rather than address it, the church excommunicated him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not convinced that the Catholic church of today is true Christianity and that there are some heresies that have invaded over the centuries. I believe that was part of what Martin Luther was trying to point out but the church would have nothing to do with it. Rather than address it, the church excommunicated him.

The heresies came at the beginning.
John was worried about gnosticism invading the church, so this was before he died.
I think it was the first heresy. Many more to follow.

Martin Luther was in the 1,500's. By this time the CC had gotten mixed in with politics.
We have to admit that the reformation caused many wars and deaths.

Martin Luther came to believe that man was saved by faith alone.
There are two verses he was influenced by, one was Ephesians 2:8 and I can't remember the other one.

Looking back, it can be seen that it would have been better for the church to examine his personal discoveries.
Certainly he was thinking and speaking as the first Christians did. I think it was impossible for the church to change so much and all at once. It tried to hold on to its power and its doctrines.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not convinced that the Catholic church of today is true Christianity and that there are some heresies that have invaded over the centuries. I believe that was part of what Martin Luther was trying to point out but the church would have nothing to do with it. Rather than address it, the church excommunicated him.

P.S. I think it is true Christianity. It teaches Christ and Him crucified.
There are no heresies that I can think of.
We may not like all it teaches, but it is Christian.
What makes a church Christian?:
The Trinity
Jesus is God
Baptism

 

[WIP]

The heresies came at the beginning.
John was worried about gnosticism invading the church, so this was before he died.
I think it was the first heresy. Many more to follow.

Martin Luther was in the 1,500's. By this time the CC had gotten mixed in with politics.
We have to admit that the reformation caused many wars and deaths.

Martin Luther came to believe that man was saved by faith alone.
There are two verses he was influenced by, one was Ephesians 2:8 and I can't remember the other one.

Looking back, it can be seen that it would have been better for the church to examine his personal discoveries.
Certainly he was thinking and speaking as the first Christians did. I think it was impossible for the church to change so much and all at once. It tried to hold on to its power and its doctrines.

The heresies began at the beginning. I do not believe they stopped there. Getting involved with politics is almost assuring heresies will also be introduced. The violence, that erupted between the Catholics and Protestants following Luther's excommunication were anything but Christian.

 

[WIP]

P.S. I think it is true Christianity. It teaches Christ and Him crucified.
There are no heresies that I can think of.
We may not like all it teaches, but it is Christian.
What makes a church Christian?:
The Trinity
Jesus is God
Baptism

Do you think all Catholic doctrine and everything the Catholic church teaches today is exactly as it was at the beginning? I do not believe that even what we consider to be orthodox today is the same.

What I believe makes a church Christian is to follow Christ. I don't even know if any of us can truly judge whether or not a church is Christian for we all have our own ideas about what it means to follow Christ.