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Did the biblical God create evil?

God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god.

Where do you get this idea that for Lucifer's entire existence he disobeyed God? This isn't what the Bible says.

That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god.

But you haven't shown from any objective, authoritative source that your first premise about Lucifer always disobeying God is true. So, then, you can't get to this second premise from your first one.

God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

Well, since your first and second premises that bring you to this question have no basis in objective fact, what point is there in trying to offer an answer? Your question, built upon errors, is illegitimate.

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom.

God made Lucifer with the capacity to choose to serve God or not. In what direction Lucifer exercised this capacity is entirely Lucifer's choice - and responsibility.

Was God unfair to make Lucifer capable of such decision-making? This depends upon what God wanted regarding Lucifer. If God had wanted a robot, a puppet, He'd have made Lucifer incapable of choosing to serve. This was not what God wanted, as we can see from Lucifer's choice to serve himself rather than his Maker.

If a wood carver made a knife of capable of carving wood, in doing so he'd also unavoidably make a knife capable of cutting and stabbing human flesh. Any knife that could carve wood, could carve human tissue. If a thief stole the wood carver's knife and used it to murder someone, would the wood carver be responsible for such an evil use of his knife? He could not have made a knife that could carve wood that couldn't also wound or kill a human being. And he never intended the knife should be used to harm another person. It's purpose was to create things of beauty from wood. So, then, how is the wood carver responsible for the wretched use of his knife? Well, he's not. The thief is solely responsible for how he used the wood carver's knife.

In the same way, Lucifer used the "carving knife" of his free agency, of his capacity to choose to serve God or himself, to do evil. God intended Lucifer's free agency to produce a good end, but giving such agency to Lucifer unavoidably meant giving him the ability to choose an evil end. Like the thief, Lucifer used the "carving knife" of free agency to do wrong, against its intended purpose. Such use is, then, on Lucifer, not God; Lucifer, like the murdering thief, bears full responsibility for how he uses the "carving knife" of his free agency.

God, then, has never been unfair to Lucifer. Far from it.
 
Where do you get this idea that for Lucifer's entire existence he disobeyed God? This isn't what the Bible says.



But you haven't shown from any objective, authoritative source that your first premise about Lucifer always disobeying God is true. So, then, you can't get to this second premise from your first one.



Well, since your first and second premises that bring you to this question have no basis in objective fact, what point is there in trying to offer an answer? Your question, built upon errors, is illegitimate.



God made Lucifer with the capacity to choose to serve God or not. In what direction Lucifer exercised this capacity is entirely Lucifer's choice - and responsibility.

Was God unfair to make Lucifer capable of such decision-making? This depends upon what God wanted regarding Lucifer. If God had wanted a robot, a puppet, He'd have made Lucifer incapable of choosing to serve. This was not what God wanted, as we can see from Lucifer's choice to serve himself rather than his Maker.

If a wood carver made a knife of capable of carving wood, in doing so he'd also unavoidably make a knife capable of cutting and stabbing human flesh. Any knife that could carve wood, could carve human tissue. If a thief stole the wood carver's knife and used it to murder someone, would the wood carver be responsible for such an evil use of his knife? He could not have made a knife that could carve wood that couldn't also wound or kill a human being. And he never intended the knife should be used to harm another person. It's purpose was to create things of beauty from wood. So, then, how is the wood carver responsible for the wretched use of his knife? Well, he's not. The thief is solely responsible for how he used the wood carver's knife.

In the same way, Lucifer used the "carving knife" of his free agency, of his capacity to choose to serve God or himself, to do evil. God intended Lucifer's free agency to produce a good end, but giving such agency to Lucifer unavoidably meant giving him the ability to choose an evil end. Like the thief, Lucifer used the "carving knife" of free agency to do wrong, against its intended purpose. Such use is, then, on Lucifer, not God; Lucifer, like the murdering thief, bears full responsibility for how he uses the "carving knife" of his free agency.

God, then, has never been unfair to Lucifer. Far from it.
Ur interpretation of fair & who is to blame is not rational here.

U r very unfair in ur opinion here. Even if Lucifer wasn't always evil, he still chose to become evil due to God designing Lucifer with inherent flaws that would set him up for doom. For Lucifer to fall, god would've knowingly set him up to do so, by forcing Lucifer's design to contain inherent flaws beyond Lucifer's ability to control that would lead to doom
 
Lucifer would have to have fatal flaws to have even chosen evil in the first place...so your logic here is redundant

The flaws he had within him that made him fall were flaws he didn't have the ability to understand without outside help. The same way the mentally ill need someone outside themselves to make them realize they're mentally ill, same logic with Lucifer. He just had mental issues that he lacked self awareness of due to his flawed design. That's some level of impossible to control. He was set up for doom by having a design so flawed that the design he had didn't even let him know of his own flaws to be evil.

That's like being set up for doom by a mentally ill set of caretakers
 
Hey All,
Do you think you are the first person to come up with the idea that God is the cause of sin Truth_is_powerful 729292? First let's consult James for biblical rebuttal. Then Thomas Aquinas (455-486AD) who answered this back in the 5th century.

James 1:13-16 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do not err, my beloved brethren.

I could stop right here. This is the truth. Let's go further and explore the logic that makes it true.


"God is the cause of the act of sin: and yet He is not the cause of sin, because He does not cause the act to have a defect" Thomas Aquinas

(I was going to give you a long drawn out answer as Aquinas did. But let me try this analogy instead.)

A man and a wife are the cause of their child being born. The child is well raised, taught right from wrong, don't smoke, don't do drugs, all of that. Then the child becomes a man, able to do as he pleases, and subsequently becomes a drug addict. (May God forbid in real life.) By your logic, the parents caused the child's addiction.

The husband and wife are the cause of their child's addiction insofar as they are the cause of his existence. Therefore they are the cause of the act without the intent of the act.

The child acted of his own accord, their own free will. The child bears the responsibility of both intent and cause of his addiction.

Now let's equate this to God.
God is the author/cause of all things.
That makes Him the cause of the act of sin.
God gave the angels and mankind something He Himself does not have, a free will. (Probably the defect to which Aquinas refers.)
Satan, along with about one third of the angels exercised that free will and chose to rebel against God.
Mankind exercised their free will and rebelled also.
Thus God is the cause of the act of sin.
(Free will)
God is not the cause of sin.
God did not cause or force the angels or mankind to sin. (To do so would violate free will. Then it isn't free will any more.)

That is the logic behind what Thomas Aquinas said.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Ur interpretation of fair & who is to blame is not rational here.

Making this statement and showing it to be true are not one-and-the-same thing. In other words, merely saying so doesn't make it so.

Even if Lucifer wasn't always evil, he still chose to become evil due to God designing Lucifer with inherent flaws that would set him up for doom.

Lucifer's freedom to choose was not a flaw but a necessary characteristic of being a creature that was not a mere puppet, or robot, or instinct-driven animal. There were many angels who did not make Lucifer's choice, though they were of an angelic kind with him. Why didn't their inherent flaws (which you have yet to clearly identify in Lucifer) drive them in the direction Lucifer took? How were they able to overcome these flaws but Lucifer was not?

Anyway, Lucifer had enormous cause not to become evil - greater cause than you or I have since Lucifer, as an angel, dwelt in heaven, encountering God directly, without any doubt as to God's existence and awesome power and glory. Lucifer was made beautiful, and highly-skilled, and given authority, as well. Lucifer did not suffer pain; he did not endure misery and hardship common to life on earth; he did not labor under disease and the fearful prospect of physical violence and/or death. What possible grounds, then, could Lucifer have had to choose as he did? There was no fault in God that prompted Lucifer's choice; there was no fault in Lucifer's environment, or in the blessings of his own angelic nature, that warranted his prideful rebellion. Lucifer could have chosen other than he did, as other angels had done, to serve God as he was made to do; he was not bound by a "fatal flaw" to turn to evil. So, no, what Lucifer chose freely to do, what he could have chosen not to do, was entirely his responsibility and not something he could blame anyone else for - not even his Maker.

Lucifer would have to have fatal flaws to have even chosen evil in the first place...so your logic here is redundant

Nope. See above. Other angels of a kind with Lucifer have not made Lucifer's choice. Though they have the same capacity to choose as Lucifer did, though they have all the angelic bestowments Lucifer enjoyed, they remain faithful servants of God.

The same way the mentally ill need someone outside themselves to make them realize they're mentally ill, same logic with Lucifer.

??? You first have to establish the devil is mentally ill, or something like it, before you can offer this parallel. As it stands, your remark here simply flatly asserts, without any objective, rational basis, that the devil is as you think he is. Well, I need a lot more reason for this remark you've made here before I will take it at all seriously.

He just had mental issues that he lacked self awareness of due to his flawed design.

Again, you're just asserting this as though it is established fact. It isn't. The devil made his rebellious choice under circumstances that gave him every reason NOT to rebel. God didn't set him up; the devil freely chose his wicked course.

He was set up for doom by having a design so flawed that the design he had didn't even let him know of his own flaws to be evil.

That's like being set up for doom by a mentally ill set of caretakers

This is just silly, groundless speculation. See above.
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?
Angels must have imagined they knew everything there was to know about God.
That's how Eve was tempted. God will forgive anyone who stops rebelling against Him.

On earth as it is in Heaven. 😊
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
Undistributed middle. The conclusion is founded upon a premise that does not exist.

God did not create Lucifer, He created free will beings among whom was Lucifer, Michael the Archangel, Gabriel, etc. All easily figured out whether they would obey God or not, on their own.

The defect was the Devil's own making, not in what God created. If it were impossible for free will creatures to choose evil instead of good, then free will didn't exist. So, the fact some angels chose evil instead of good is proof God gifted them with free will.

The defect was the Devil's own making, before then God made him Perfect. God likens satan to the doomed King of Tyre. Alexander the Great built a causeway and destroyed the allegedly impregnable city:

12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. (Ezek. 28:12-16 NKJ)
 
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God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
Hi Truth_is_powerful729292

I would just caution that you be very, very careful where you're going with this. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is described for us as an unforgiveable sin. To make some spurious claim that the Holy God, who is Spirit, has done something evil, according to your logic, which may not be from God, would be, I believe, blasphemous in God's sight. So, I'd just caution you to be careful that God doesn't see you as an infiltrator of the enemy trying to sow seeds against God's holiness and righteousness. That's not a place that I think is going to be comfortable in the next life.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Truth_is_powerful729292

I would just caution that you be very, very careful where you're going with this. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is described for us as an unforgiveable sin. To make some spurious claim that the Holy God, who is Spirit, has done something evil, according to your logic, which may not be from God, would be, I believe, blasphemous in God's sight. So, I'd just caution you to be careful that God doesn't see you as an infiltrator of the enemy trying to sow seeds against God's holiness and righteousness. That's not a place that I think is going to be comfortable in the next life.

God bless,
Ted
See post 13
 
Lucifer's freedom to choose was not a flaw but a necessary characteristic of being a creature that was not a mere puppet, or robot, or instinct-driven animal.
I see a problem with this. In Heaven or the new heavens and new earth, we will never sin and there will be no sin. Do we all lose our free wills then?
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
What do you mean by evil?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Yes, I know the word can mean calamity or something like that but:
Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?

This Hebrew word is never rendered "sin"; it is rendered "calamity" in Psa_141:5; "adversity" in 1Sa_10:19; Psa_94:13; Ecc_7:14; "grief" in Neh_2:10; Pro_15:10; Ecc_2:17; Jon_4:6; "affliction" in Num_11:11; "misery" in Ecc_8:6, besides several other renderings elsewhere.

But the modern idea that God is never behind any calamity that happens is not Biblical.
 
I see a problem with this. In Heaven or the new heavens and new earth, we will never sin and there will be no sin. Do we all lose our free wills then?

My thinking at the moment on your question is that, yes, we may lose our capacity to choose to do evil once we move on from here to be with God. But we are choosing this end by choosing submission to God now.

The longer I walk with God, the more my relationship with Him resolves down to whose will it is that will be done in my life. I am more and more in the habit of submitting to His will and way, and the more I am, the less the idea of being unable to choose evil causes me any consternation. In fact, I welcome such a circumstance; for under it, God's will may be done in my life without struggle, or half-measures.
 
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