Discussion on UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

[atpollard]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

That is as good a working definition of Unconditional Election as any I know, and here is as good a Scripture to start a discussion with as any:

Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV]
10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."​

First, a brief digression (if you will permit me). Spare me any arguments about whether Paul is discussing the individuals or nations.

1. The context referring to their birth and their mother makes a discussion of nations nonsense.
2. Even if Paul was discussing nations, it changes NOTHING in the points that Paul made … the decision was made BY GOD for THE PURPOSE OF GOD and had nothing to do with “deserved” for either individual (or nation).

So focus on the Scripture in its context and spare me pointless arguments about nations that will not change what Paul actually said.

CONDITIONAL ELECTION:
It might not be a terrible thing to present the opposite view, Conditional Election, right up front for an immediate contrast:

Many (most?) people believe that in eternity past, God looked ahead and saw who would say yes and who would say no to the gospel. Based on this prior knowledge of who would believe in Jesus Christ, God elects to save them. This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet.​

 

[atpollard]

Does UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION mean that God has no conditions to salvation? Can one be saved without faith? Without repentance? Without being baptized three times by someone that can trace their pedigree back to an Apostle?

[That was a trick question. The answer to the first three is “No”, but the answer to the last question is “Yes” … I’ve just had a few arguments with a certain Christian Sect that teaches incorrect baptisms are invalid and negate your salvation … a teaching that really pisses me off.]

Scripture is clear that God decrees conditions for salvation - like placing your trust in Jesus Christ, for one. Those are conditions for JUSTIFICATION. The Doctrine of Election is something else and speaks of a much narrower scope.

Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV]​

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

SINCE (not “if”, God already said so) God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and it does not depend on what mankind “wills” (desires) or “runs” (strives to do) but the mercy of God is given based on the will of God … “On what basis does God ELECT (choose) some people to be saved?

R.C. Sproul prefers the term SOVEREIGN ELECTION because God’s choice is based on God’s Sovereignty.

 

[atpollard]

… BUT THAT’S NOT FAIR!

Is it a violation of justice for God to choose to give His grace (undeserved favor) to some sinners and to withhold His undeserved favor (grace) from other sinners? How? Why?
Those that did not receive the gift did not get anything that they did not deserve. Is it unjust for God to punish sinners for their sins? Nobody has received injustice.

It is the sovereign right of a Sovereign King to bestow mercy when and where He chooses. God affirmed to Moses that this RIGHT belonged to God: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” Mercy is not given to those that meet some condition; mercy is bestowed on those to whom God is pleased to bestow mercy.

 

[JLB]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

That is as good a working definition of Unconditional Election as any I know, and here is as good a Scripture to start a discussion with as any:

Yes its a good working definition of Unconditional Election because both the definition and the term Unconditional Election come from man and not scripture.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Yes its a good working definition of Unconditional Election because both the definition and the term Unconditional Election come from man and not scripture.


JLB

Just like TRINITY … and THEOLOGY … and BIBLE …. and GLORIFICATION …

 

[atpollard]

ELECTION (not found in the Bible):

[Romans 9:11 NKJV] 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

[Romans 11:5, 28 NKJV] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... 28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers.

[1 Thessalonians 1:4 NKJV] 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

[2 Peter 1:10 NKJV] 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

So to summarize:

• the purpose of God according to election
• the election of grace
• election by God
• call and election

… but “election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save” comes from man and not from scripture. 😎

 

[brightfame52]

It should be understood that election unto salvation is very much unconditional considering God did the choosing when ? Before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This election therefore took place before Adam was created from the dust of the ground, even before the world had a beginning.

This had much to do with the eternal counsel and purpose of God, outside of time in Christ the God Man Mediator 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

It had nothing to do with mans choices and actions outside of time, for man didn't yet have a physical being or existence. This election was founded solely on Gods Purpose and Grace !

Now once we bypass all this sacred information and insist that election is conditional on mans action whatever it may be, we disown the Grace element of Election !

 

[brightfame52]

Mans religion says man does the choosing in Salvation, but scripture shows that not to be true, God does the choosing unto Salvation Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[God] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Deut 7:6

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Cor 1:27-28

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

2 Thess 2:13

2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

James 2:5

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Concerning James 2:5 I prefer the Mounce Translation,

Listen, my dear brothers! Did not · God choose those whom the world considers poor to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him?

In other words, Gods choice of the poor here results in them being rich in Faith, faith follows Gods choice of a person.

Faith isnt the condition, but the result of Gods unconditional choice of Grace !

 

[journeyman]

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God chooses people who are poor in spirit, regardless of wealth, as Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Job, etc. were wealthy men, but they considered themselves poor, as our Lord did. Being financially poor is no guarantee of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

God chooses people who are poor in spirit, regardless of wealth, as Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Job, etc. were wealthy men, but they considered themselves poor, as our Lord did. Being financially poor is no guarantee of salvation.

I don't know what you talking about, has nothing to do with what I said. Unconditional Election was made by God before the foundation, before anyone had a physical being, before they were born.

 

[journeyman]

I don't know what you talking about, has nothing to do with what I said. Unconditional Election was made by God before the foundation, before anyone had a physical being, before they were born.

Actually, faith in God has to do with believing God will forgive any sinner who so desires it. This is what Jesus demonstrated, when men sinned against him.

 

[wondering]

Yes its a good working definition of Unconditional Election because both the definition and the term Unconditional Election come from man and not scripture.


JLB

Tiring, isn't it?

 

[wondering]

Mans religion says man does the choosing in Salvation, but scripture shows that not to be true, God does the choosing unto Salvation Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[God] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Deut 7:6

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Cor 1:27-28

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

2 Thess 2:13

2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

James 2:5

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Concerning James 2:5 I prefer the Mounce Translation,

Listen, my dear brothers! Did not · God choose those whom the world considers poor to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him?

In other words, Gods choice of the poor here results in them being rich in Faith, faith follows Gods choice of a person.

Faith isnt the condition, but the result of Gods unconditional choice of Grace !

I'd like to answer to the above Brightfame.
Since none of those verses has anything to do with God predestinating those who are saved.
And you have the Ordo Salutis all wrong, as usual.

But first,
I'd like it if you'd answer MY verses in the Total Depravity thread.
It would be nice, and fair, and courteous.

 

[wondering]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION:
God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

That is as good a working definition of Unconditional Election as any I know, and here is as good a Scripture to start a discussion with as any:

Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV]​

10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."​

First, a brief digression (if you will permit me). Spare me any arguments about whether Paul is discussing the individuals or nations.

1. The context referring to their birth and their mother makes a discussion of nations nonsense.
2. Even if Paul was discussing nations, it changes NOTHING in the points that Paul made … the decision was made BY GOD for THE PURPOSE OF GOD and had nothing to do with “deserved” for either individual (or nation).

So focus on the Scripture in its context and spare me pointless arguments about nations that will not change what Paul actually said.

CONDITIONAL ELECTION:
It might not be a terrible thing to present the opposite view, Conditional Election, right up front for an immediate contrast:

Many (most?) people believe that in eternity past, God looked ahead and saw who would say yes and who would say no to the gospel. Based on this prior knowledge of who would believe in Jesus Christ, God elects to save them. This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet.​

Sure.
Unless one of those boys brought forth the nation of Israel,
and one brought forth the nation of the Edomites.
Too complicated and not worth the effort.
God likes to show His strength in weakness.
Paul states this in Corinthians,
Jacob was the weaker brother,
but he turned out to be what God wanted and knew that Esau would not be able to rule Israel.
The Edomites were the descendants of Esau.




Obadiah 1...
1This is the vision that the Sovereign LORD revealed to Obadiah concerning the land of Edom.
Edom’s Judgment Announced
We have heard a message from the LORD
that an ambassador was sent to the nations to say,
“Get ready, everyone!
Let’s assemble our armies and attack Edom!”
2The LORD says to Edom,
“I will cut you down to size among the nations;
you will be greatly despised.
3You have been deceived by your own pride
because you live in a rock fortress
and make your home high in the mountains.
‘Who can ever reach us way up here?’
you ask boastfully.
4But even if you soar as high as eagles
and build your nest among the stars,
I will bring you crashing down,”
says the LORD.
5“If thieves came at night and robbed you
(what a disaster awaits you!),
they would not take everything.
Those who harvest grapes
always leave a few for the poor.
But your enemies will wipe you out completely!
6Every nook and cranny of Edoma
will be searched and looted.
Every treasure will be found and taken.
7“All your allies will turn against you.
They will help to chase you from your land.
They will promise you peace
while plotting to deceive and destroy you.
Your trusted friends will set traps for you,
and you won’t even know about it.
8At that time not a single wise person
will be left in the whole land of Edom,”
says the LORD.
“For on the mountains of Edom
I will destroy everyone who has understanding.
9The mightiest warriors of Teman
will be terrified,
and everyone on the mountains of Edom
will be cut down in the slaughter.
Reasons for Edom’s Punishment
10“Because of the violence you did
to your close relatives in Israel,b
you will be filled with shame
and destroyed forever.

 

[brightfame52]

Conditional election is work/merit Salvation based upon something good saw in us or done by us.

 

[JLB]

Just like TRINITY … and THEOLOGY … and BIBLE …. and GLORIFICATION …

I don’t use the word Trinity because it’s unbiblical.


I use the word Godhead.

Likewise I tend to s the scriptures instead of Bible.

I only use “theology” as a facetious reference.


I don’t think I have ever used Glorification.





JLB

 

[atpollard]

Sure.
Unless one of those boys brought forth the nation of Israel,
and one brought forth the nation of the Edomites.
Too complicated and not worth the effort.
God likes to show His strength in weakness.
Paul states this in Corinthians,
Jacob was the weaker brother,
but he turned out to be what God wanted and knew that Esau would not be able to rule Israel.
The Edomites were the descendants of Esau.

OK, since you REFUSED to step over that worthless pile of manure …

… how does one word of this change anything Paul wrote about “God choosing” and doing so “to make God’s purpose known”?
(and according to Paul, God made that choice BEFORE THE BABIES WERE BORN!)

• What CONDITION in Jacob made him (while still unborn) DESERVE to have his future nation blessed?
• What CONDITION in Esau made him (while still unborn) DESERVE to have his future nation cursed?
• That is the essence of CONDITIONAL ELECTION (the opposite of Unconditional Election).

 

[atpollard]

God chooses people who are poor in spirit, regardless of wealth, as Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Job, etc. were wealthy men, but they considered themselves poor, as our Lord did. Being financially poor is no guarantee of salvation.

… so God saves the spiritually bankrupt, like Wall Street bankers? (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)😉

 

[wondering]

OK, since you REFUSED to step over that worthless pile of manure …

… how does one word of this change anything Paul wrote about “God choosing” and doing so “to make God’s purpose known”?
(and according to Paul, God made that choice BEFORE THE BABIES WERE BORN!)

• What CONDITION in Jacob made him (while still unborn) DESERVE to have his future nation blessed?
• What CONDITION in Esau made him (while still unborn) DESERVE to have his future nation cursed?
• That is the essence of CONDITIONAL ELECTION (the opposite of Unconditional Election).

God's word is manure?

 

[atpollard]

God's word is manure?

Arguing that Rebecca gave birth to Edom and Israel so Paul did not say what he said is “manure”.

Insisting on arguing about EDOM and ISRAEL when I specifically stated that it changes nothing about Paul’s basic point (God’s purpose before they were born) and had no desire to waste time doing so is “manure”.

Now try responding to either the points in the OP or the questions in post #17 rather than arguing about whether your manure is manure.