Disillusionment in the Church post New Millennium

[JohnD]

Many shortcomings in the organized Church came to light when the year 2000 CE came and passed without any spiritual significance. Many in the Church organism became disillusioned and were not as intent on actively pursuing their faith as before the big bugaboo millennium loomed on the horizon.

The organized churches enjoyed a hay day of attendance and a rather gullible audiences lapping up their every idea from the pulpits before the millennium passed. The Y2K bug was but an extreme example of how easily the Church organization could be showed up with well placed disinformation.

And the post millennium church organization who taught less biblical beliefs about the scriptures gained a new audience in the disillusioned exploiting how wrong the church organization that disillusioned them was...

Many who now entertain Preterist dogma came over to that belief system in this time frame. Many returned to Roman Catholicism (a great Apologist named Francis Beckwith being among them). I do not have the figures before me but the Christian cults have since enjoyed enormous growth after the organized church that banked on futurism and could not resist date setting (or at the least date implying about the year 2000 CE) had it blow up in everyone's face.

 

[JohnD]

I am trying to choose my words carefully because what I am about to say can be so easily misunderstood...

Better yet, I'll illustrate:

 

[JohnD]

How much of what we believe or accept is based on the traditions of the church organization that best suits us?

Forgetting that:

Mark 7:7–13 (AV)
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus was speaking about the Jewish religious leaders. But doesn't it also apply to all?

Some denominations (Roman Catholicism for one) makes no bones about the Bible NOT being its authority / source for all truth. And we will find that to at least some degree ALL denominations fall into the traditions of man trap...

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All scripture came this way (btw). And thus the Holy Spirit is the only one who is to interpret the scriptures he wrote.

 

[Brother Mike]

How much of what we believe or accept is based on the traditions of the church organization that best suits us?

Forgetting that:

Mark 7:7–13 (AV)
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus was speaking about the Jewish religious leaders. But doesn't it also apply to all?

Some denominations (Roman Catholicism for one) makes no bones about the Bible NOT being its authority / source for all truth. And we will find that to at least some degree ALL denominations fall into the traditions of man trap...

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All scripture came this way (btw). And thus the Holy Spirit is the only one who is to interpret the scriptures he wrote.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

OK, so at what point does this become bad.

Every church I have been to has taken up some tradition of man.

many take one scripture to get understanding.

Even Job.............. "Behold, all that He has is in your power."

There is no other scripture to show God turning Satan loose on someone that obey's him, yet that is what is believed taking that instance in private interpretation.

In my church a teacher said......... "Jesus the 2nd person in the Godhead"
what scripture is that again?

God knows the End from the Beginning. That is not a scripture, and misquoting and changing the Meaning in one from ISA.

God is Sovereign. Where is that Scripture?

I was slain in the Holy Spirit.......... Your still breathing, where is your scripture?

So while some are just blatant and bad like Rome, I don't see how to completely avoid this.

 

[JohnD]

You just keep proving my point.

And the only way to minimize this if not avoid it is to get back to the Holy Spirit interpreted Bible as the authority it was intended to be.

If nothing else it will reduce / eliminate the divisions in the Body Christian to the unity Jesus prayed for three times in the high priestly prayer (John 17) at least once likening it to the unity of his Father and he.

 

[Brother Mike]

You just keep proving my point.

And the only way to minimize this if not avoid it is to get back to the Holy Spirit interpreted Bible as the authority it was intended to be.

If nothing else it will reduce / eliminate the divisions in the Body Christian to the unity Jesus prayed for three times in the high priestly prayer (John 17) at least once likening it to the unity of his Father and he.

When then they say the Holy Spirit showed me this. I am around lots of tongue talking folks, and they do hear God, but lots of their "Thus Saith the Lord." are not the Lord, but what they want to believe.

 

[Obadiah]

I really don't know where all these churches were that were doing all this "date setting" and other things concerning the year 2000 that caused all these problems you're talking about. I sure didn't see it in any church around me, nor did I hear any rational, level headed Christians talking about this. Most I know, if they talked about it at all, were warning people away from these kind of things. I just don't know where all these churches are that are doing all these kind of things people are so anxious to blame them for. Seems most times I hear this kind of thing, I can't remember ever seeing it myself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

OK, so at what point does this become bad.

Every church I have been to has taken up some tradition of man.

many take one scripture to get understanding.

Even Job.............. "Behold, all that He has is in your power."

There is no other scripture to show God turning Satan loose on someone that obey's him, yet that is what is believed taking that instance in private interpretation.

In my church a teacher said......... "Jesus the 2nd person in the Godhead"
what scripture is that again?

God knows the End from the Beginning. That is not a scripture, and misquoting and changing the Meaning in one from ISA.

God is Sovereign. Where is that Scripture?

I was slain in the Holy Spirit.......... Your still breathing, where is your scripture?

So while some are just blatant and bad like Rome, I don't see how to completely avoid this.

I don't quite understand all that you are saying here.
Satan has certainly been loosed on God's people.
Ephesians 6:11
James 4:7
1 Peter 5:8

God is sovereign is throughout Scripture if you understand what sovereign means.
2 Chronicles 20:6
And many other verses.

Being slain in the Spirit.
Acts 9
Revelation 1:17
John 18:6
2 Chronicles 5:14.
Ezekiel 1:28

And although the words "Jesus is 2nd person in Godhead" does not appear, the unity of God the Father and Jesus is quite clear throughout Scripture.

So what is it you are trying to say?
That these things are not true?
That we should not put these things in our own words to explain to others?

There may very well be disillusionments in the church today, but a better representation of those disillusionments needs to be presented.

 

[Brother Mike]

I really don't know where all these churches were that were doing all this "date setting" and other things concerning the year 2000 that caused all these problems you're talking about. I sure didn't see it in any church around me, nor did I hear any rational, level headed Christians talking about this. Most I know, if they talked about it at all, were warning people away from these kind of things. I just don't know where all these churches are that are doing all these kind of things people are so anxious to blame them for. Seems most times I hear this kind of thing, I can't remember ever seeing it myself.

Date Setting is another one not mentioned, but a big Issue.

When Hearing God, I have learned that God most the time never gives you a time or date on something. We add that in for God to speed things up.

I have learned to never, never, never set a date or time.

When other believers tell me God told the it will be this way by next October, I already know they are in for a disappointment. One of the Worse ways to be led by God and set times is to look at natural things, then make predictions. The Blood moons being one current, Y2K and the list goes on through the years. God is not setting his time clock according to what we see on earth.

In fact, when I told the Doctor concerning my son and His Cancer diagnose, I said, "This is Under the Curse, it don't belong to us, you won't even find Cancer in a week (7 days)" I added the 7 days myself, believed it, and on the 8th when Chicago reported back that my son would not make it through the night, the devil used what I said to the Doctor against me.

We don't set times and dates. If the Lord tells you I am coming soon............. Soon might not be in Human years.

I don't quite understand all that you are saying here.
Satan has certainly been loosed on God's people.
Ephesians 6:11
James 4:7
1 Peter 5:8

God is sovereign is throughout Scripture if you understand what sovereign means.
2 Chronicles 20:6
And many other verses.

Being slain in the Spirit.
Acts 9
Revelation 1:17
John 18:6
2 Chronicles 5:14.
Ezekiel 1:28

And although the words "Jesus is 2nd person in Godhead" does not appear, the unity of God the Father and Jesus is quite clear throughout Scripture.

So what is it you are trying to say?
That these things are not true?
That we should not put these things in our own words to explain to others?

There may very well be disillusionments in the church today, but a better representation of those disillusionments needs to be presented.

I think your missing the point of the post.

Jesus the 2nd person in the Godhead is Wording of a Modern Catholic Doctrine accepted by the West in the 1600's. I guess you believe in Holy Water also. Keeps Vampires away, I get it.

I have been around tongue talking believers and strong anointing and not one time has the Holy Spirit killed anyone.

God knows the end from the beginning is a common Pentecostal expression based on twisting a scripture in ISA.

There are no scriptures saying God is Sovereign, in the context people use it. God does what he wants, when He wants to who he wants.

There is no scripture by which Satan is turned loosed on anyway. Satan Got his place by Adam obeying him. Judgement from God gives place to the devil also. None of it God's fault. Jude said if you keep yourself, the evil one touch you not, in contrast to what happened to Job.

 

[reba]

Christ is the head of the Church He does not fail

 

[LovethroughDove]

This scripture proves your illustration.

Revelation 3:7-8 To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name

I am of this church. I don't have a building I go to.

 

[Brother Mike]

This scripture proves your illustration.

Revelation 3:7-8 To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name

I am of this church. I don't have a building I go to.

Lots of folks on the forum don't go to "A Church" We are suppose to be hooked with someone and should be in church (Building)

And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
(Act 14:27)

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(Heb 10:25)

We are suppose to be physically together with other Believers, and should have a Pastor.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Brother Mike - you are reading more into it, than the word says. In Acts 14 they came together in a city (Antioch). They didn't have a church service where there was "one" person saying everything.

1 Corinthians 11:18 Again, not a church building setup. Believers coming together to discuss what God is doing through them.

Hebrews 10:25 - - - We don't forsake assembling ourselves on this website.

We are suppose to be physically together with other Believers, and should have a Pastor.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.

Pastors in the body of Christ are there for the "world's sake".

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike - you are reading more into it, than the word says. In Acts 14 they came together in a city (Antioch). They didn't have a church service where there was "one" person saying everything.

1 Corinthians 11:18 Again, not a church building setup. Believers coming together to discuss what God is doing through them.

Hebrews 10:25 - - - We don't forsake assembling ourselves on this website.



1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.

Pastors in the body of Christ are there for the "world's sake".

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(Eph 4:11-13)

No, No, Sister. That Anointing comes from hearing a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Teacher. You have to hear, it's God who gives the increase, the Anointing teaches you and expounds on what you hear. You still need the Pastor, Teacher, Apostle, Prophet and so on.

If I tell you something in Scripture about Healing, it's the Holy Spirit that expounds on that and makes it real. You still have to have the seed of the Word planted though.

I get e-mail from members here, P.M's asking me private faith Questions. I get e-mail from folks passing through here and don't sign up about something I wrote her and they want to know more about.

That does not mean I am a replacement for a Pastor or anything else.

I can't go to Washington and visit you if your sick, you can't invite me to go fishing for Steel heads or Salmon either and talk scriptures.

You need to be connected to other believers who you can help, and they can be there for you. Best way to do that is find a Building where they gather together. Church in the Greek just means Assemblies together.

I have had through the years forum members come visit us, and have diner if they were going through Branson, MO. That is not the same as being part of a Church with lots of other believers you see all the time.

At least think about it.

 

[reba]

No, No, Sister. That Anointing comes from hearing a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Teacher. You have to hear, it's God who gives the increase, the Anointing teaches you and expounds on what you hear. You still need the Pastor, Teacher, Apostle, Prophet and so on.

And all my life i thought the anointing came from God. :tongue

 

[Brother Mike]

And all my life i thought the anointing came from God. :tongue

One would think........ sigh................

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Mike, you are very confusing.
And I'm not dumb.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike, you are very confusing.
And I'm not dumb.

I am not trying to be confusing, this makes it the point of the OP though. I mentioned some things like God's Sovereignty. I said it's not a scripture. We have scripture like this though.

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
(Isa 46:9)

JohnD's Point was the the Holy Spirit is the only one that can interpret scriptures he gave. When you say God is Sovereign, what goes through your mind? It's not a scripture, but is often said as if it's a scriptural fact. It really depends on what someone's definition of what Sovereign is.

JohnD made a point about Rome, they have no bones admitting they don't adhere to scripture only. They feel that being the Authoritative Church that changing scripture is OK, they have that right.

So, I mentioned Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead. A quote from their new modern Trinity Doctrine. That came right out of Rome, they made that up and approved it.

You said even though it's not in scripture, it's still found and hinted throughout scripture.

How do you find something in scripture Rome made up? In Fact Rome admitted (Catholic Encyclopedia 1912) that Trinity is not found in scripture. It's a mystery of christian faith.

People have gone so far as to Say Rome messed up the Trinity doctrine, they hold the "REAL" Trinity doctrine........... Rome invented the doctrine and there would not even be a Doctrine had Rome not rammed it down everyone throats for so many years. You can't take credit for someone else Doctrine.

Yet, it's still quoted as if it came right out of scriptures, not something Rome proclaimed. Does that make it bad though? Does it matter?

it really does not matter the doctrine. How much do we believe as truth that is not truth or part truth?

How much do we believe that is not truth, but not really all that harmful?

It's true anyone can say the Holy Spirit Showed me this in Scripture, but how can we take their word on that?

Service starts at 9am, offering collected at 9:30am, singing until 10am, sermon until 11:20am Alter call at 11:30am and dismissed by 11:45am. The same thing every Sunday. Is that what God wants? Or is that the way we just do things as we have always done? Is it bad or good?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Titus 2:13
"---the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".
I think with this verse it is easy to see Jesus as the 2nd person of the Godhead.

 

[Brother Mike]

Titus 2:13
"---the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".
I think with this verse it is easy to see Jesus as the 2nd person of the Godhead.

The Godhead has nothing to do with this, I just used it as an example of what JohnD was talking about. It could be any subject you hear at churches today. Purgatory, Tongues, Serpent seed, Anything.

However, I hit on a subject that seems to get you on the defense........ (Modern Trinity Doctrine) I would check into that.