Do Believers In Hell Fire Actually Believe?

[Grappler]

Grappler being mortal is not mentioned in the Bible?

Do you normally start a discussion by twisting scripture?....Just what is your point? What do you want?

 

[Guest]

Do you normally start a discussion by twisting scripture?....Just what is your point? What do you want?

You said there's no torment in scripture forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 clearly states there is. Revelation predicts what will happen. Do you think you're mortal and will die one day? Do you think you will be judged by God one day by steering Christians wrong by making them believe there is no torment in hell forever and ever?

 

[Grappler]

You said there's no torment in scripture. Revelation 20:10 clearly states there is. Revelation predicts what will happen. Do you think you're mortal and will die one day? Do you think you will be judged by God one day by steering Christians wrong by making them believe there is no torment in hell?

So not only do you make a practice of twisting scripture you also twist what i say as well. Not a very "Christian" thing to do urk I never said there will be no torment...whatever that means. I assume you mean 'torment' in Hell? If you do...as i have stated several times yes there will be torment in the lake of fire for unbelievers. Here is the answer to your two questions for me...1. Yes. 2. No. If you would like for me to elaborate on those two questions please let me know...otherwise i am involved in other topics for now.

 

[Guest]

So not only do you make a practice of twisting scripture you also twist what i say as well. Not a very "Christian" thing to do urk I never said there will be no torment...whatever that means. I assume you mean 'torment' in Hell? If you do...as i have stated several times yes there will be torment in the lake of fire for unbelievers. Here is the answer to your two questions for me...1. Yes. 2. No. If you would like for me to elaborate on those two questions please let me know...otherwise i am involved in other topics for now.

but from what i've read for the last month, you don't believe in torment forever and ever. wow did you change your mind!! that's awesome. i'm not twisting scripture. it cleary says torment forever and ever in Revelation 20:10. are you reading the scripture ok.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hi Virginshallconceive,

While you do make some good points, we ought not rely on our emotional urges to guide our theological framework. The Bible clearly teaches that there is a judgement coming for the wicked that some will not escape and the nature of this punishment will be rendered permanent with no hope of return. However we must understand that these passages that speak on God's punishment are employing language and a type of literary style that we are not familiar with.

I personally do not hold to the eternal torment view of hell (aka the traditional view). To be brief here are a few reasons why, and I pray that you go to the Scriptures to find out for yourself.

1. The destruction of the wicked. I believe that from Genesis to Revelation we see the consistent teaching of death or destruction being God's ultimate punishment for sin. That the wages of sin is death.. not eternal torment. And the price Jesus paid for us on the cross was DEATH... not eternal torment. Jesus overcame.. the GRAVE.. not eternal torment. Jesus fears us from the fear of death... not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second DEATH... not eternal torment. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says that we should fear him who is able to destroy both body AND SOUL in Hell. The Greek word here is ἀπόλλυμι and it means what it sounds like, to destroy. And the context is in regards to Jesus telling them not to fear the one's who can KILL the body but after that can do nothing, the language employed here is not in regards to being brought to ruin or lost, but to be destroyed.. to die by the wrath of God.
2. Passages that are often used by traditionalists such as Revelation 14:9-13 or Revelation 20:10 are apocalyptic literature, and should not be taken literally. This was a literary style familiar with those of the 1st Century and we do great damage to the teaching of Scripture if we are to take these words literally. For example, Isaiah uses this literary style to describe the destruction of Edom.

For ⌊Yahweh has a day of vengeance⌋,
a year of retribution for the strife of Zion.
9 And its streams shall be changed to pitch and its soil to sulfur,
and its land shall become like burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall be in ruins;
forever and ever there will be no one who passes through her. (Is 34:8–10).

If you'll notice this the SAME language used in Revelation 14, yet let us ask a few questions. A) Is Edom still burning today? B) Does Edom still have smoke rising from it? C) Does no one still pass through it? The answer to all these questions is of course no.. and this language is implemented to demonstrate the totality of Edom's destruction, not it's continual.
3. Eternal fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, in the Epistle of Jude we see that he uses this instance as an example of those undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. What then happened to Sodom and Gomorrow? Were they tortured forever and ever? No they were utterly destroyed!
4. The Old Testament Jews never had thought up an idea like we do in regards to Hell until the Selucid empire invaded in the 300BC era and brought Hellenistic culture and pagan religion to Israel. A syncretism happened from then on and many differing views on the after life appeared. Prior to this time there was not much thought about the after life.

Ultimately I could go on and on for reasons why, but I think one of the most compelling arguments that I have is that God's victory is total and FINAL. That one day he will triumph and abolish death and hades to the lake of fire to be utterly destroyed and then there will cease to be suffering, sin or death in ALL of God's creation. He will not be torturing those near and dear to us while we enjoy him in the new creation forever and ever, God is going to destroy evil forever! This is the gospel!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Immortality is in Christ alone and is reserved for only those of the resurrection of the righteous.. who the second death will have NO power over.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

Hi, δοῦλος Ἰησοῦ!

Thank you for stopping by and giving us a little insight into where you're coming from. I'm glad that you don't subscribe to the "eternal torture chamber" belief(nobody acts like they do, anyway).

 

[VirginShallConceive]

[video=youtube;qnrJVTSYLr8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8[/video]

Erasing Hell

This thread is better than Francis Chan's book could ever be.

If his book doesn't contain Post #13 or Post #83, don't waste your money. :toofunny

 

[Grappler]

but from what i've read for the last month, you don't believe in torment forever and ever. wow did you change your mind!! that's awesome. i'm not twisting scripture. it cleary says torment forever and ever in Revelation 20:10. are you reading the scripture ok.

You know what you happens when you assume?lol You made the wrong assumption that i believe in eternal life for the unsaved....they die in the lake of fire its called the second death...look it up sometime. Still think thats awesome??lol It must really bother you that i believe that the unsaved do not suffer horrible torture forever and ever..why is that? I mean i have moved onto other topics and was happy to agree to disagree with you but you must not be satisfied with that are you?

 

[Guest]

You know what you happens when you assume?lol You made the wrong assumption that i believe in eternal life for the unsaved....they die in the lake of fire its called the second death...look it up sometime. Still think thats awesome??lol It must really bother you that i believe that the unsaved do not suffer horrible torture forever and ever..why is that? I mean i have moved onto other topics and was happy to agree to disagree with you but you must not be satisfied with that are you?

but what you believe is different than what scripture says. it says torment forever and ever in Revelation 20:10.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

You said there's no torment in scripture forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 clearly states there is. Revelation predicts what will happen. Do you think you're mortal and will die one day? Do you think you will be judged by God one day by steering Christians wrong by making them believe there is no torment in hell forever and ever?

Urk,

If you believe there is eternal torture, and you want more people to believe this, you and others should start panicking and actually act like it, because if you don't, they're gonna believe me instead.

 

[P31Woman]

This thread is better than Francis Chan's book could ever be.

If his book doesn't contain Post #13 or Post #83, don't waste your money. :toofunny

I appreciate his attitude. I believe that's the type of attitude required by God when seeking to know His truth. (humble, sober minded submission to God)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I appreciate his attitude. I believe that's the type of attitude required by God when seeking to know His truth. (humble, sober minded submission to God)

I appreciate his attitude as well and he actually attempts to take the Bible seriously on the matter. What I find very interesting though is that his scholarly support who co-authored the book Dr.Preston Sprinkle no longer holds to the conclusion they arrived at in the book and actually holds to my view which I detailed earlier in this thread.

 

[Guest]

Urk,

If you believe there is eternal torture, and you want more people to believe this, you and others should start panicking and actually act like it, because if you don't, they're gonna believe me instead.

What i believe is flawed without scripture. Are you saying Revelation scripture is flawed?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I appreciate his attitude. I believe that's the type of attitude required by God when seeking to know His truth. (humble, sober minded submission to God)

Hi, P31Woman!

I know you do. I appreciate you stopping by and offering your view. You always make the discussion interesting. Honestly.

He does speak with a lot of enthusiasm, and that is good for capturing and maintaining the viewer's attention.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

What i believe is flawed without scripture. Are you saying Revelation scripture is flawed?

I don't like to give a short answer to questions like that. Check out Post #93. It's long, but I think you'll get the gist of what I think.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What i believe is flawed without scripture. Are you saying Revelation scripture is flawed?

Hi urk,

I have a question for you.. Read this passage and then answer the following questions:

For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isaiah 34:8-10)

This is a text about the destruction of Edom that is promised by the Lord as an oracle of destruction through Isaiah the prophet. My questions are:

1. Were the streams of Edom turned into pitch?
2. Was the soil of Edom turned into sulfur?
3. Is it still burning to this day.. night and day?
4. Is there smoke forever rising from Edom?
5. Does it still lie completely waste?
6. Has no one ever passed through it since it's destruction?

If you answer yes to these questions then we have a problem.. as I can look up pictures and maps that prove that it doesn't. However, my point is to demonstrate was this EXACT language used in Revelation is found in other apocalyptic literature and if we don't take these word literally here... why would you have no problem saying yes in regards to Revelation?

Some food for thought, remember we must be utterly faithful to what Scripture actually says.. not a misinterpretation of it.

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Guest]

I don't like to give a short answer to questions like that. Check out Post #93. It's long, but I think you'll get the gist of what I think.

All I'm hearing is your opinions in post#93 without scripture. It says torment forever and ever in Revelation 20:10. Is God a liar?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

[video=youtube;qnrJVTSYLr8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8[/video]

Erasing Hell

Watch out, folks!

Thanks to Free and Danus, P31Woman now has the power to insert videos! Our threads will never be the same again!

:toofunny

 

[Guest]

No, God isn't a liar, but whoever threw that verse in there was smoking crack.

Interesting because the people who wrote the bible were indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Are you saying the Holy Spirit smokes crack? Crack rock?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Interesting because the people who wrote the bible were indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Are you saying the Holy Spirit smokes crack? Crack rock?

You can go yell it on top of the mountain that you believe what that verse says until you're blue in the face, but the undeniable truth remains . . . you don't act like it. That is the whole theme of this thread.

You. People. Don't. Act. Like. It.

 

[Guest]

Hi urk,

I have a question for you.. Read this passage and then answer the following questions:

For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Isaiah 34:8-10)

This is a text about the destruction of Edom that is promised by the Lord as an oracle of destruction through Isaiah the prophet. My questions are:

1. Were the streams of Edom turned into pitch?
2. Was the soil of Edom turned into sulfur?
3. Is it still burning to this day.. night and day?
4. Is there smoke forever rising from Edom?
5. Does it still lie completely waste?
6. Has no one ever passed through it since it's destruction?

If you answer yes to these questions then we have a problem.. as I can look up pictures and maps that prove that it doesn't. However, my point is to demonstrate was this EXACT language used in Revelation is found in other apocalyptic literature and if we don't take these word literally here... why would you have no problem saying yes in regards to Revelation?

Some food for thought, remember we must be utterly faithful to what Scripture actually says.. not a misinterpretation of it.

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

Edom is located south of Judea on the earth. The lake of fire in Revelation 20:10 is not on earth. It's in hell. utterly faithful is right sir.