Do Believers In Hell Fire Actually Believe?

[Shakes]

O: Whether or not I stand corrected on the numbers, one simply cannot justifiably ignore the Lord Jesus's dire warnings about hell.

If it were merely a case of an empty annihilation or something, the sheer, elemental force of His warnings would be blunted.

Does your "or something" just refer to empty annihilation by a different name or are the other beliefs that you believe would blunt Jesus' message about hell?

 

[Free]

O: Whether or not I stand corrected on the numbers, one simply cannot justifiably ignore the Lord Jesus's dire warnings about hell.

If it were merely a case of an empty annihilation or something, the sheer, elemental force of His warnings would be blunted.

And this is a point that cannot be ignored. The strength of the language Jesus uses in warning about 'hell,' which I use only to refer to gehenna, leaves little room for doubt that one does not want to go there.

Does your "or something" just refer to empty annihilation by a different name or are the other beliefs that you believe would blunt Jesus' message about hell?

There are other beliefs about the afterlife and the next age which also would blunt Jesus' words both about hell and the gospel.

 

[farouk]

And this is a point that cannot be ignored. The strength of the language Jesus uses in warning about 'hell,' which I use only to refer to gehenna, leaves little room for doubt that one does not want to go there.



There are other beliefs about the afterlife and the next age which also would blunt Jesus' words both about hell and the gospel.

Free:

Well, exactly; while to us it may seem almost a truism, yet the point is often lost.

 

[Shakes]

There are other beliefs about the afterlife and the next age which also would blunt Jesus' words both about hell and the gospel.

I suppose if hell is eternal conscious torment is correct, then any teaching that doesn't go to that point blunts Jesus' teaching to some degree. Whatever happens to those outside of Jesus after they die is horrible judging from the Jesus' warnings so I wasn't sure if farouk felt there were other teachings that blunted these warnings to the same degree as empty annihilation. If there are I'm wondering what they might be. Also, I'm not exactly sure what is meant by empty annihilation, but I figured it meant when you die that is it - you don't resurrect for judgement or get punished in any way.

 

[Free]

I suppose if hell is eternal conscious torment is correct, then any teaching that doesn't go to that point blunts Jesus' teaching to some degree. Whatever happens to those outside of Jesus after they die is horrible judging from the Jesus' warnings so I wasn't sure if farouk felt there were other teachings that blunted these warnings to the same degree as empty annihilation. If there are I'm wondering what they might be. Also, I'm not exactly sure what is meant by empty annihilation, but I figured it meant when you die that is it - you don't resurrect for judgement or get punished in any way.

I'll let farouk answer for himself but to address the idea of hell being "eternal conscious torment," even that has more than one way of being looked at. As I pointed out to a previous poster, the idea that hell will somehow be physical pain and torture is, IMHO, not biblically correct and I consider it to be a strawman. There simply is more than one way to consider the idea of eternal hell. As to my thoughts on the matter, consider the following:

It seems that for believers there are various levels of reward:

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

In the same way, it appears that there are various levels of punishment for unbelievers:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Also, if you have not done so, consider reading C. S. Lewis's The Great Divorce.

 

[Guest]

Free, do you know what it means when shakes says, 'Whatever happens to those outside of Jesus after they die'

 

[Osgiliath]

O: Whether or not I stand corrected on the numbers, one simply cannot justifiably ignore the Lord Jesus's dire warnings about hell.

If it were merely a case of an empty annihilation or something, the sheer, elemental force of His warnings would be blunted.

And this is a point that cannot be ignored. The strength of the language Jesus uses in warning about 'hell,' which I use only to refer to gehenna, leaves little room for doubt that one does not want to go there.

Does your "or something" just refer to empty annihilation by a different name or are the other beliefs that you believe would blunt Jesus' message about hell?

There are other beliefs about the afterlife and the next age which also would blunt Jesus' words both about hell and the gospel.

Here is a question for you guys. Actually the question is asked in the first of the following verses, and then answered in the second:

• Isaiah 33:14 "The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: 'Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? Who among us shall dwell in EVERLASTING BURNINGS?'"
  
  
  [*]Isaiah 33:15 "HE WHO WALKS RIGHTOUSLY AND SPEAKS UPRIGHTLY, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil."

Why is that? Why are those "WHO WALK RIGHTOUSLY AND SPEAK UPRIGHTLY" the ones who shall dwell with the "DEVOURING FIRE" and "EVERLASTING [Hebrew: olawm] BURNINGS?"

According to those who subscribe to eternal torment, is it not the wicked who are supposed to be the ones who dwell with the devouring fire and in everlasting burnings?




And here is another question for y'all:

• Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set for an example suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE."

Sodom and Gomorrah and all the cities of the plain are suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire. OR ARE THEY?

This is the only time "eternal" fire is used in the King James, however, "everlasting" fire (translated from the same Greek word aionios) is used twice (Matthew 18:8; 25:41).

Now then, how could it be endless or eternal, seeing that the area of Sodom and Gomorrah and that whole plain on which there were multiple cities, are not on fire today? Nor was it on fire in Christ's time, or in Israel's time, or in ANY time since Abraham.

The Greek word aion, translated "eternal" and "everlasting" in these verses means "age" or pertaining to an age. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek manuscripts had a word that can be properly and accurately translated as either "eternal" "everlasting," or "endless time" (in fact, no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that mean "eternity" or "endless time.") Eonian or age-lasting fire is decidedly not eternal, never-ending fire.



The "eternal fire" of Jude 7 is no longer burning in Sodom and Gomorrah; being that it was not "eternal" but "eonian" and therefore is no longer burning. The fire from God in Jerusalem "that shall not be quenched" as recorded in Jeremiah 17:27, likewise is no longer burning.


Why not if they are said to be "eternal?"


And what about Sodom? Are the people from Sodom doomed to eternal torment?

• Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Judah] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."

"Shall return to their former estate?" What is this about guys?

Can you be Scripturally and intellectually honest and thoroughly answer these questions (using the Scriptures, of course)?

 

[Webb]

All one need do is to read the remainder of the chapter (Isa.33:15-16) to understrand its NOT the righteous who burn. "He (who walks righteously etc. emp. mine) will dwell on high; His place of defense will be he fortress of rocks; bread will be given him, his water will be sure."

Nothing like reading the context, context is everything. With such mishandling scripture I do not need read the rest of the post.

 

[Osgiliath]

All one need do is to read the remainder of the chapter (Isa.33:15-16) to understrand its NOT the righteous who burn. "He (who walks righteously etc. emp. mine) will dwell on high; His place of defense will be he fortress of rocks; bread will be given him, his water will be sure."

Nothing like reading the context, context is everything. With such mishandling scripture I do not need read the rest of the post.

So you're just going to ignore verses 13 & 14? Those verses are CRYSTAL CLEAR, in perfect context my friend. I'm not surprised.


Here is some context for you:

• Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE."

And so are all those who are "in Christ." The very words of scripture proceeding from their mouths devours their enemies:

• Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make MY WORDS in thy mouth FIRE, and this people wood, hay and stubble and it shall devour them."

And the Revelation of Jesus Christ affirms that those who speak God's word are that "fire:"

• Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, FIRE proceedeth out of THEIR MOUTH, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."

• Hebrews 1:7 "God said about the angels, "He makes his messengers winds. He makes his servants FLAMES OF FIRE."

Here is why the RIGHTEOUS can dwell in the devouring fire and everlasting burnings:

• Revelation 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH."

• Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Does the above verse say he "shall not GO THROUGH the second death?" Or does it say he "shall not BE HURT of the second death?"


Remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego?

• Daniel 3:25 " 'Look!' he answered, 'I see four men loose, walking in the MIDST OF THE FIRE; and THEY ARE NOT HURT, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God!"

 

[Webb]

I have not ignored vs.13,14. You ignore what follows those verses and refuse context. Until you can handle that I need not address such foolishness further.

 

[Webb]

I addressed the VERY FIRST verse you submitted. Vs. 15, 16 follows vs. 13,14 and tells where the one "who walks righteously" dwells. No smokescreen but yours.

 

[iLOVE]

Believers must be totally dependent upon Christ and the Cross as a child is dependent upon their parents or you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Believers who depend on self, will not accept the Cross. This will pull one into unbelief, and, thereby, a lost condition. No exceptions to this rule! Matthew 18: 1-5

 

[JLB]

So you're just going to ignore verses 13 & 14? Those verses are CRYSTAL CLEAR, in perfect context my friend. I'm not surprised.


Here is some context for you:

• Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE."

And so are all those who are "in Christ." The very words of scripture proceeding from their mouths devours their enemies:

• Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make MY WORDS in thy mouth FIRE, and this people wood, hay and stubble and it shall devour them."

And the Revelation of Jesus Christ affirms that those who speak God's word are that "fire:"

• Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, FIRE proceedeth out of THEIR MOUTH, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed."

• Hebrews 1:7 "God said about the angels, "He makes his messengers winds. He makes his servants FLAMES OF FIRE."

Here is why the RIGHTEOUS can dwell in the devouring fire and everlasting burnings:

• Revelation 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH."

• Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Does the above verse say he "shall not GO THROUGH the second death?" Or does it say he "shall not BE HURT of the second death?"


Remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego?

• Daniel 3:25 " 'Look!' he answered, 'I see four men loose, walking in the MIDST OF THE FIRE; and THEY ARE NOT HURT, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God!"

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


You just can't explain away the verse's you don't like.

There is no explaining away the simple clear truth of this scripture -


... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.


JLB

 

[VirginShallConceive]

There is no explaining away the simple clear truth of this scripture -

[/B][/COLOR]
... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.


JLB

All liars? That alone covers a lot of people.

 

[Webb]

All liars? That alone covers a lot of people.

So now when the scripture reads "all liars" we are not to believe that either? Is that what you are saying?

 

[JLB]

All liars? That alone covers a lot of people.

The Apostle Paul clarifies for us the intent of God in these matters as he writes to the Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

as does John -

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10


Those whose lifestyle is that of lying, by the fact that they "practice" lying would be considered a liar.

Likewise those who "practice" at other sinful habits, without repentance will also be considered adulterer's or murderers or whatever...

So it is those who continually "practice" these things, that will not inherit the kingdom.

As Jesus describes clearly for us -

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


I would think that if someone heard these words from Jesus, Paul and John, they would be motivated to repent and walk uprightly.

However, if these same people were taught that there is no consequences for practicing an ungodly or unrighteous lifestyle, then they would have no motivation to repent.


Hopefully you are not someone whose is lying to them and telling them that the bible is not true.


JLB

 

[Webb]

Osgoliath--You are "dodging" Isa.33. No need to go further until you admit error or prove wrong what I presented.

 

[Carolyn]

those who have received Christ into their lives, walk in His Spirit and rely òn His death to pay the debt for their
sins, having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will not be in the Great White Throñe judgement. Their works will be judged but it will not affect their salvation, only their rewards.
Those who have given intellectual assent to Christ but have not acknowledged Him as Lord and ruler of the
universe and have not relied upòn Him as their personal Savior, these probably are not born again and may
not spend eternity with Jesus.. Some people may have a superficial belief in Christ but not the saving faith that
fully relys on His sacrifice, the seal of His Spirit and His Grace, which is necessary for heaven.

 

[Carolyn]

People can have a superficial belief that does not rely on Christ but instead opposes Christ. Those who oppose Christ till they die will be in torment just being in His Presence just as they hate being around us. But they are ordained of their own free will that they prefer not being in Christ's Presense. They would actually prefer a lake of fire. They have already made that choice before they die.

Some of us have been given the gift of intercession and pray for those who need Christ without ceasing.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

So now when the scripture reads "all liars" we are not to believe that either? Is that what you are saying?

The Apostle Paul clarifies for us the intent of God in these matters as he writes to the Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Okay. First, we have this . . .


"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8


. . . and then you tell me that Paul clarifies.

Really? Those verses clarify?



Uncleanness:

Just saying "uncleanness" can only mean two things if the reason that it is listed is because it is different than the other items listed. It either means that the person dictating it needs to clarify further, and I wouldn't be surprised if you or someone else posted back to me in order to clarify it for Paul, or it means anyone who is unclean, which covers a lot of ground. If "uncleanness" is describing any of the other items listed, why even list it in the first place?



Murders:

I love how "murders" is just tossed in there, right in between "envy" and "drunkenness". "Yeah, you know . . . envy . . . murders . . uh . . drunkenness. Stuff like that." :toofunny



Come on, man. Let's get real here. And don't even get me started on the "sorcerers".