Do Believers In Hell Fire Actually Believe?

[Free]

No. It's called "logic".

The whole argument of this thread is really based on the logical fallacy known as Hasty Generalization, not to mention it very much ignores what the Bible and experience teach us about human nature. Also in the process the Straw Man fallacy has been deployed several times.

So, no, it really isn't called logic.

 

[Guest]

You do the same with your actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The whole argument of this thread is really based on the logical fallacy known as Hasty Generalization, not to mention it very much ignores what the Bible and experience teach us about human nature. Also in the process the Straw Man fallacy has been deployed several times.

So, no, it really isn't called logic.

"Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence— essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.[1] Its opposite fallacy is called slothful induction, or denying a reasonable conclusion of an inductive argument (e.g. "it was just a coincidence")." -Wikipedia


I point out the clear, undeniable observation that people who claim to believe in eternal Hell Fire don't act like they actually believe.

Then, a forum member further explores the real human nature in post #13 with a "house burning" analogy that is spot on.

One side of the argument claims that there is an eternal torture chamber.

The other side claims that there isn't.

A world that has an eternal torture chamber and a world that doesn't are two extremely different worlds.

Mysteriously, neither side jumps into action with a serious sense of urgency. People on both sides of the argument behave relatively the same, considering they are claiming to occupy two very different worlds.

I fail to see any logical fallacy from this side of the argument.

 

[Free]

"Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence— essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.[1] Its opposite fallacy is called slothful induction, or denying a reasonable conclusion of an inductive argument (e.g. "it was just a coincidence")." -Wikipedia


I point out the clear, undeniable observation that people who claim to believe in eternal Hell Fire don't act like they actually believe.

How many Christians are there in your city? How about your state? How about the entire US? Or how about North America? How many in the rest of the world?

And of all those Christians, how many have you observed for significant periods of time in order to be able to come to such a conclusion?

The Hasty Generalization fallacy stands.

Then, a forum member further explores the real human nature in post #13 with a "house burning" analogy that is spot on.

One side of the argument claims that there is an eternal torture chamber.

The other side claims that there isn't.

A world that has an eternal torture chamber and a world that doesn't are two extremely different worlds.

Mysteriously, neither side jumps into action with a serious sense of urgency. People on both sides of the argument behave relatively the same, considering they are claiming to occupy two very different worlds.

I fail to see any logical fallacy from this side of the argument.

I fail to see the usefulness of the analogy since it completely ignores what experience and the Bible show us about human nature.

As for "eternal torture," Straw Man, as far as Scripture goes.

 

[P31Woman]

if you like we can just agree to disagree about this subject after all it is not a salvational issue. You can have your eternal torture chamber and we can have our view...hows that?

Is that what you have been doing? Denying portions of scripture are God inspired because they offend your sensibilities?

 

[Guest]

I point out the clear, undeniable observation that people who claim to believe in eternal Hell Fire don't act like they actually believe.

What does this even mean, they don't act like it? The devil can also act like sin is no big deal. Do you follow the devil? Forcing people to act a certain way is Hitler doctrine. The reason we don't act like it 24 hours a day is because 1) life isn't a concentration camp 2) We no longer fear death 3) is because God loved us first before we loved him and 4) is because of people like you, who we preach the salvation of Jesus Christ too and then you act like you repented but maybe you really didn't repent. Are you sure you're not the one that's acting? Just a thought.

 

[P31Woman]

I believe all scripture is God inspired.


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”



I am sure the "Bystander Effect" is at play with some Chrisitans who don't hold the beliefs I do concerning "my" role in bring people to Christ.

 

[Guest]

I believe all scripture is God inspired.

Good for you! Stay strong in the spirit, for you will know them by their fruits.

 

[WIP]

I think it would be good for everyone if we all take a step back for a moment, grab some fresh air, and cool down a bit. This thread is getting a little too heated up.

 

[P31Woman]

if you like we can just agree to disagree about this subject after all it is not a salvational issue. You can have your eternal torture chamber and we can have our view...hows that?

Grappler,

I don't know if you realize this or not but when you speak of Holy Scriptures and use terms such as "eternal torture chamber" in a flippant rather than humble way it leads me to think about another term often thrown around in the same way. "Cosmic Child Abuse"........that the term used by some heretics (who "claim" to be chrisitans) to describe the what Jesus did for me on the Cross. They would stand side by side with you on this thread.

Steve Chalke and Alan Mann, The Lost Message of Jesus,“The fact
is that the cross isn't a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful
Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed.
Understandably, both people inside and outside of the Church have found this
twisted version of events morally dubious and a huge barrier to
faith. Deeper than that, however, is that such a concept stands in total
contradiction to the statement: ‘God is love’. If the cross is a personal act of
violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it
makes a mockery of Jesus' own teaching to love your enemies and to refuse
to repay evil with evil.” , [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003], pp.
182-183)

Another person who is often quoted on this forum would also stand with you in using terms that mock scripture in one way or another. His name is Peter Enns. He has a "new way" to interpet scripture that is anti-supernaturalism.

"Anti-Supernaturalism is a philosophical presupposition that claims one should,
on principle, avoid any belief or explanation that involves supernatural
causation" quote Winki

He teaches his blind followers that even Paul had it wrong when it came to Adam being a true historical person. This fool had the nerve to write on the internet something entitled, The Bible is a Smelly, Gross, Pile of Rotting Garbage! There are good reasons why this man lost his job with a Christian college as a Bible teacher.


I don't know if you follow those types of belief or not. I noticed you ignored my question earlier. I just feel the need to give you a heads up. That is the group of people I and possibly others are going to place you in because you use the same termonology in the same flipant manner they do when speaking of Holy Scripture.

 

[Grappler]

Is that what you have been doing? Denying portions of scripture are God inspired because they offend your sensibilities?

I guess that is a no. Actually i take scripture as a whole...unlike you. You love to focus on eternal torment for some reason...do you fear it? Are you afraid that if you don't go along with the traditional view of eternal torture that you may end up in that place? Do you put your faith in Jesus or eternal torture? Does it not bother you a little that a loving merciful God would send his disobedient creatures to an eternal nightmare with no plan of giving them mercy? After you are in the Kingdom of Heaven 1 trillion years...yep according to you some of your lost loved ones will still be screaming for mercy. Does that offend your sensibilities?

 

[Grappler]

Grappler,

I don't know if you realize this or not but when you speak of Holy Scriptures and use terms such as "eternal torture chamber" in a flippant rather than humble way it leads me to think about another term often thrown around in the same way. "Cosmic Child Abuse"........that the term used by some heretics (who "claim" to be chrisitans) to describe the what Jesus did for me on the Cross. They would stand side by side with you on this thread.


Another person who is often quoted on this forum would also stand with you in using terms that mock scripture in one way or another. His name is Peter Enns. He has a "new way" to interpet scripture that is anti-supernaturalism.
He teaches his blind followers that even Paul had it wrong when it came to Adam being a true historical person. This fool had the nerve to write on the internet something entitled, The Bible is a Smelly, Gross, Pile of Rotting Garbage! There are good reasons why this man lost his job with a Christian college as a Bible teacher.


I don't know if you follow those types of belief or not. I noticed you ignored my question earlier. I just feel the need to give you a heads up. That is the group of people I and possibly others are going to place you in because you use the same termonology in the same flipant manner they do when speaking of Holy Scripture.

Are you calling me a heretic? How judgmental.lol

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I think it would be good for everyone if we all take a step back for a moment, grab some fresh air, and cool down a bit. This thread is getting a little too heated up.

You know, WIP, you're right.

I'm gonna see if I can kick the "politeness level" up a notch . . .



[INCREASED POLITENESS]

How many Christians are there in your city? How about your state? How about the entire US? Or how about North America? How many in the rest of the world?

And of all those Christians, how many have you observed for significant periods of time in order to be able to come to such a conclusion?

The Hasty Generalization fallacy stands.

Hi, Free, and thank you for taking the time to respond.

I was born into a Christian family. I am a mixed Euro-American. As far as I can tell, I am 100% European. I have a grandma off the boat from Scotland, and I have ancestors who arrived in America from Europe in the 1600's. As far as I can tell, my entire family tree has been Christian all the way back to the days where Christianity spread throughout Europe. I was born and raised in Michigan, and I still reside here.

After reading your line of questioning in your post, I started wondering, "When did I meet my first non-Christian?" I guess if I wanted to get technical, I could have been two or three years old, "met" someone for the first(and possibly only) time, and we could have continued on our separate paths without me ever knowing the fact that they were non-Christian. Anyhow, the first time I ever heard someone in person state that they didn't believe in God, I was about fourteen years old. Before then, everyone who I ever heard speak in person was either a Christian or they never mentioned anything about it and I assumed that they were Christian. You name it: family, friends, and not-so-close acquaintances. So, I met the atheist/agnostic/whatever when I was about fourteen, and a few of these same types of people would pop briefly into my life . . . let's say . . . once or twice a year. Somehow, maybe the subject of God would come up, they would say something like, "Oh, I don't believe in that stuff", and that would be the end of it. I was in my mid-twenties when I became acquainted with my first Jew and my first Mormon. Once again, we never talked too much about religion. Now, I grew up in the Detroit area. I was born in the early 70's. I know that Detroit it full of various cultures, just like any big city. I know that there are a lot of Arabic people or perhaps Hindu people, but aside from the occasional encounter with these foreigners, perhaps at a Seven Eleven or a party store or downtown, they were a rare sight in my hometown and surrounding areas. I became acquainted with my first Muslim about two years ago. First Hindu, this year. Never got acquainted with a Buddhist.

So, I grew up a Christian who came from Christians and was surrounded by Christians. Some were more church-going than others, but the God that we know from the Bible was their God, in one way or another. On Christmas Day, it seemed that all businesses were shut down. As I got older, that became less and less.

The American culture that I perceived from television seemed to be predominantly Christian as well. TV shows, the local news, movies, whatever.

Eternal torture in Hell was always there too . . . somewhere in there. As far as my mom goes, I think she believed that only murderers and rapists end up there. My parents never threatened me with Hell or anything like that. But, we went to church often, and every so often, the preacher would preach about eternal Hell.

Anyways, when I started this thread, I had half a life's experience in Christian America. I've heard people preach about Hell in real life, in the movie theater, and on television. I've seen discussions about Hell right here on ChristianForums.net.

I was only addressing the people who claim to believe that Hell is an eternal torture chamber. When I started this thread, never once did I feel that I was talking to myself because nobody would fit into the category of believer that my question/assumption was targeted toward. When people started to show up to defend the claim of actually believing in an eternal torture chamber, I wasn't surprised, but I must admit that I thought the percentage of members who disagree with me would be lower.

I honestly posted how I believe I would behave if I truly knew that there was an eternal torture chamber that could be prevented.



Honestly, Free, I wouldn't mind knowing how you think I would behave.

How, do you think, would I behave?



Scratch that. I only want one question answered from this long-winded post:


Do you think that my guess on how I would behave was totally ridiculous, or just a little off?



If you choose to respond, I won't get offended, no matter what your opinion/guess may be. I really want to know what you think.

I fail to see the usefulness of the analogy since it completely ignores what experience and the Bible show us about human nature.

Well, as you already know, I loved that analogy.

Usefulness? Well, I haven't seen anyone here change their position because of that analogy. Not yet, anyway. I still think that it is a rock-solid process of thought.

As for "eternal torture," Straw Man, as far as Scripture goes.

I think I remember you saying that before, and I obviously agree.

 

[Guest]

yep according to you some of your lost loved ones will still be screaming for mercy. Does that offend your sensibilities?

Not really, my 20/20 vision always keeps me from swerving into trashcans.

 

[Free]

Hi, Free, and thank you for taking the time to respond.

I was born into a Christian family. I am a mixed Euro-American. As far as I can tell, I am 100% European. I have a grandma off the boat from Scotland, and I have ancestors who arrived in America from Europe in the 1600's. As far as I can tell, my entire family tree has been Christian all the way back to the days where Christianity spread throughout Europe. I was born and raised in Michigan, and I still reside here.

After reading your line of questioning in your post, I started wondering, "When did I meet my first non-Christian?" I guess if I wanted to get technical, I could have been two or three years old, "met" someone for the first(and possibly only) time, and we could have continued on our separate paths without me ever knowing the fact that they were non-Christian. Anyhow, the first time I ever heard someone in person state that they didn't believe in God, I was about fourteen years old. Before then, everyone who I ever heard speak in person was either a Christian or they never mentioned anything about it and I assumed that they were Christian. You name it: family, friends, and not-so-close acquaintances. So, I met the atheist/agnostic/whatever when I was about fourteen, and a few of these same types of people would pop briefly into my life . . . let's say . . . once or twice a year. Somehow, maybe the subject of God would come up, they would say something like, "Oh, I don't believe in that stuff", and that would be the end of it. I was in my mid-twenties when I became acquainted with my first Jew and my first Mormon. Once again, we never talked too much about religion. Now, I grew up in the Detroit area. I was born in the early 70's. I know that Detroit it full of various cultures, just like any big city. I know that there are a lot of Arabic people or perhaps Hindu people, but aside from the occasional encounter with these foreigners, perhaps at a Seven Eleven or a party store or downtown, they were a rare sight in my hometown and surrounding areas. I became acquainted with my first Muslim about two years ago. First Hindu, this year. Never got acquainted with a Buddhist.

So, I grew up a Christian who came from Christians and was surrounded by Christians. Some were more church-going than others, but the God that we know from the Bible was their God, in one way or another. On Christmas Day, it seemed that all businesses were shut down. As I got older, that became less and less.

The American culture that I perceived from television seemed to be predominantly Christian as well. TV shows, the local news, movies, whatever.

Eternal torture in Hell was always there too . . . somewhere in there. As far as my mom goes, I think she believed that only murderers and rapists end up there. My parents never threatened me with Hell or anything like that. But, we went to church often, and every so often, the preacher would preach about eternal Hell.

Anyways, when I started this thread, I had half a life's experience in Christian America. I've heard people preach about Hell in real life, in the movie theater, and on television. I've seen discussions about Hell right here on ChristianForums.net.

I was only addressing the people who claim to believe that Hell is an eternal torture chamber. When I started this thread, never once did I feel that I was talking to myself because nobody would fit into the category of believer that my question/assumption was targeted toward. When people started to show up to defend the claim of actually believing in an eternal torture chamber, I wasn't surprised, but I must admit that I thought the percentage of members who disagree with me would be lower.

I honestly posted how I believe I would behave if I truly knew that there was an eternal torture chamber that could be prevented.



Honestly, Free, I wouldn't mind knowing how you think I would behave.

How, do you think, would I behave?

Scratch that. I only want one question answered from this long-winded post:


Do you think that my guess on how I would behave was totally ridiculous, or just a little off?



If you choose to respond, I won't get offended, no matter what your opinion/guess may be. I really want to know what you think.

I don't think your guess as to how you would behave is at all accurate, just as how you extrapolate that to others is inaccurate. Again, this is why I appeal to the Bible and experience regarding human behavior. We constantly don't do what we know we should and do what we know we shouldn't, for any number of reasons. That someone believes something to be true in no way means that they will act a certain way regarding that belief.

And because you are not only guessing at what you would do but arguing to what you believe everyone would be doing if they truly believed in eternal punishment in Hell, it's a Hasty Generalization because you simply cannot know what all Christians, or even a decent percentage of them, are doing all the time.

As for "eternal torture," Straw Man, as far as Scripture goes.

I think I remember you saying that before, and I obviously agree.

I don't think you understand. You and a couple of others continue to use such phrases as "eternal torture" or "eternal torture chamber" and such. But since that is not necessarily what the Bible teaches, it is a Straw Man against the idea of an eternal existence in Hell.

 

[gr8grace]

I guess that is a no. Actually i take scripture as a whole...unlike you. You love to focus on eternal torment for some reason...do you fear it? Are you afraid that if you don't go along with the traditional view of eternal torture that you may end up in that place? Do you put your faith in Jesus or eternal torture? Does it not bother you a little that a loving merciful God would send his disobedient creatures to an eternal nightmare with no plan of giving them mercy? After you are in the Kingdom of Heaven 1 trillion years...yep according to you some of your lost loved ones will still be screaming for mercy. Does that offend your sensibilities?

So God, in time did not do His Job? God did not offer Grace and mercy to those that end up in the Lake of fire? God is not capable to get His point across to his creatures while they are alive?

You are saying that God is Not capable and God cannot get His message of Grace and Mercy to His creatures while they are alive.

He is a eternal God, every sin that I commit has a just penalty of separation from Him For eternity. He is HOLY.

He Killed His Son for us, and asks for us puny creatures to Just believe that for a way out! And that is not Love and Mercy?

One thing we need to get straight about Hell, is there will not be ONE creature that is screaming for mercy. God could come back to hell after a trillion years and ask if anyone wanted His Mercy and all He would hear is Crickets And more blame. ANYONE who would accept His mercy Is with Him. He would not and will not send anyone to hell that would ever except His mercy.

Those creatures in hell get worse and hate God more every moment, and would NEVER not in a trillion years say Yes to God. If they would have EVER said yes to God their destination would never have been the lake of fire. God makes SURE of that. No one Gets better or changes their mind about God in the lake of fire.

God does His Job while we are here on this earth. EVERY creature will be with out excuse.

Gods love and mercy is epitomized in His Son. A way out for ALL.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I don't think you understand. You and a couple of others continue to use such phrases as "eternal torture" or "eternal torture chamber" and such. But since that is not necessarily what the Bible teaches, it is a Straw Man against the idea of an eternal existence in Hell.

Hey, Free!

The first portion of your post is very "meaty", in a good way. In other words, it has a lot of content that needs to be addressed from an opposing(although understanding) view. Thank you for answering my question. Coming from you and the aura that you emit, I know, as much as I know anything, that it was sincere. That's saying a lot in the world of internet forums, where you can say that you are an eighty-year-old man from Nashville, Kentucky, but in reality you are a thirteen-year-old girl from Mariefred, Sweden. Like I said, I am not offended. I didn't expect you to just lay down and say, "You're right, VirginShallConceive!"


I will respond to the first part maybe tomorrow.


Since the first part of your post demands a somewhat lengthy response, in my opinion, I just wanted to eliminate any confusion about the 2nd part of your post.



If you disagree with my reasoning, just let me know. Besides my wife and two sons, I've said more to you than anyone else that I know in the last two days.

You and I spend a lot of time here, and more kudos to you. You are a moderator, and that comes with more responsibility.



In my OP, I quoted a verse from the Bible and used it as if it was describing an eternal torture chamber, even though by further analyzation of the passage, it wasn't conclusive that an eternal torture chamber was implied by the author of that passage.

I admit my mistake on that particular detail, Free. Good catch.




Why did I use that verse as if it was describing an eternal torture chamber?


One thing that I can think of is this:

In someone else's previous thread, a forum member used that Bible passage to promote a belief in an eternal torture chamber.

I, not wanting to derail someone else's thread, decided to start a new thread, and that was the verse that was fresh in my mind.

Upon further review, take out my mistakenly quoted Bible passage, and I don't see a Strawman. Do you agree?
I don't know if that is a Straw Man. If it is, I don't mind saying that I was wrong.

But, I know that there are believers in Christ that claim to believe in an eternal torture chamber. If I call them out on their claim, does that mean that I am setting up a Strawman? I say, "No! It doesn't!"

I think that between you and I, we can clear up your claim of me being guilty of a Strawman Fallacy, either by me admitting to it, or by you recanting it.

I am not afraid of admitting that I am wrong.

I have been wrong countless times before.

I will be wrong again.

 

[Grappler]

So God, in time did not do His Job? God did not offer Grace and mercy to those that end up in the Lake of fire? God is not capable to get His point across to his creatures while they are alive?

You are saying that God is Not capable and God cannot get His message of Grace and Mercy to His creatures while they are alive.

He is a eternal God, every sin that I commit has a just penalty of separation from Him For eternity. He is HOLY.

He Killed His Son for us, and asks for us puny creatures to Just believe that for a way out! And that is not Love and Mercy?

One thing we need to get straight about Hell, is there will not be ONE creature that is screaming for mercy. God could come back to hell after a trillion years and ask if anyone wanted His Mercy and all He would hear is Crickets And more blame. ANYONE who would accept His mercy Is with Him. He would not and will not send anyone to hell that would ever except His mercy.

Those creatures in hell get worse and hate God more every moment, and would NEVER not in a trillion years say Yes to God. If they would have EVER said yes to God their destination would never have been the lake of fire. God makes SURE of that. No one Gets better or changes their mind about God in the lake of fire.

God does His Job while we are here on this earth. EVERY creature will be with out excuse.

Gods love and mercy is epitomized in His Son. A way out for ALL.

It appears you have never read Romans chapter 9. God created some vessel to show his mercy and some to destroy. I suppose you equate destroy with eternal life....Anyways so you have been to Hell? Wow...no one will be screaming for mercy after a trillion years? Give that man a cigar! You are absolutely correct there will be no screaming because there is no eternal life in Hell...their will be silence not even crickets because everyone will be dead..burned up...you know it is called the second death in Revelation...Jesus and Paul just call it destroyed. I am glad that we agree on this issue.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

He is an eternal God, every sin that I commit has a just penalty of separation from Him For eternity..

This is a serious matter.

Thank you for mentioning this.

Will you please list the sins that justify an eternal separation from God and eternal bliss?

This issue is more serious than my entire life!

 

[VirginShallConceive]

One thing we need to get straight about Hell, is there will not be ONE creature that is screaming for mercy. God could come back to hell after a trillion years and ask if anyone wanted His Mercy and all He would hear is Crickets And more blame. ANYONE who would accept His mercy Is with Him. He would not and will not send anyone to hell that would ever except His mercy.

Those creatures in hell get worse and hate God more every moment, and would NEVER not in a trillion years say Yes to God. If they would have EVER said yes to God their destination would never have been the lake of fire. God makes SURE of that. No one Gets better or changes their mind about God in the lake of fire.

Free!

Somebody!



I see nothing but logical fallacies in this post! I can sense that there are logical fallacies, but I can't assign the official terms to the various fallacies!


Help!