G
Guest
Guest
He's actually right according to scripture. Have a good day.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
He's actually right according to scripture. Have a good day.
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
Hi, P31Woman.
Our modern Western society has an entire spectrum of laws and punishments. We don't just paint all crimes with the same brush of "punishment in eternal agony", or anything in that direction within our power. And we have good reason to.
A 12-year-old boy steals a dollar. I don't hear anybody say, "Lock him up for the rest of his life, and torture him every day!" Yes, their might be a few crazy people that would say that, in a world of billions of people, but I think you know what I mean.
If you want to pretend that you don't, I can't stop you.
To be perfectly honest, I think that your request for me to name one is so ridiculous, that I've seen people on this forum accused of "trolling" for less.
That's the most polite way that I can put it.
Originally Posted by gr8grace
He is an eternal God, every sin that I commit has a just
penalty of separation from Him For eternity..
Originally Posted by VirginShallConceive
This is a serious matter.
Thank you for mentioning
this.
Will you please list the sins that justify an eternal separation
from God and eternal bliss?
This issue is more serious than my entire
life!
Originally Posted by P31Woman
Name one that does not.
I simply turned your questions back on you.
Again:
Name one sin that does not justify an eternal separation from God and eternal bliss?
Last edited by a moderator:
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
Petty theft.
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
Because I believe that one count of petty theft does not justify an eternal separation from God and eternal bliss.
Do I know that?
I think so, but maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm crazy.
OK so you are saying, we are self-righteous until we commit some sin(s) that is bad enough to seperate us from God.
Can you tell me what sins those are that make us lose our righteousness?
as you said to gr8grace:
Last edited by a moderator:
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
No. I am not saying that.
I said what I said.
totopic
Hello VSC,
I by no means can justify petty theft to eternal damnation. But to a Holy, perfect, God who is beyond standards, measures, boundaries and all kinds of limitation can separate Himself from petty theft for eternity.
Sin has levels, degrees and measure to a finite being, But to a perfect God there are no levels, there is Just perfectness. Anything less then that corrupts perfectness.
A list of Sins would be anything that you can think of, Then there would be a infinite number that we can not even conceive because of our sin nature.
God is a God of life, He does not create creatures with the intent to someday destroy that life. There is no death in our God.
Gods Love motivated the Cross. But the love of God can NOT save us. His perfect Justice is what saves us. Simply believe on His Son for salvation and His Justice is satisfied.(and we as creatures have so convoluted and corrupted that message that most people think that salvation is some hard task and God wants us to PAY,PAY,PAY!)
How could a loving God send His creatures to a eternal lake of Fire?
How could a loving God Kill His Perfect Son on a tree for creatures that hate their creator?
No. I am not saying that.
I said what I said.
You took us down the trail REMEMBER......you said this is a more serious issue than your entire live!
Ephesians 2:3b
"we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else."
The we mentioned in the partial verse above is speaking the those who have obeyed the first portion of this sermon.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
"We" have realized we are poor in spirit that is spiriturally broke. We have no resources with which we can make things with with God. Our pide is strped away and as we realize that we are completely unworthy. As Romans 7:18 says, "nothing good dwells within us"
"We" have mourned over that state of being and desire to have a right relationship with God. We are bankrupt and broken. Humbled and begging for mercy and grace. We hate sin and want it out of our life.
"We" have become meek. That is we have layed our lives down before the Cross of Jesus. He has given us His righteousness. We are under His control and guidance. He is truly our Lord and Savior.
______________________ That is the "We" spoken of in Ephesians verse mention above__________________
BTW the rest of that sermon deals with our santification process. Once we become Children of God we have a hunger and thirst to live right. That's why we dive into scripture, bible study, prayer and felloship with other believers.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Let me see.....so i look at woman lustfully and then immediately correct myself....so i guess according to you i would deserve to burn in agony not for a day but absolutely forever.lol My God wouldn't do that would yours?
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
Hi, Free.
Once again, thank you for the reply.
For me, it just seems that a noticeable portion of Christians act responsibly and distribute their efforts with the future in mind. They go to work, so that they can have a paycheck in the future. I know that there is a certain population of Christians who might just live for today, and not plan for the future, but from living half a life and seeing everything that I have seen, there is a significant amount of Christians who properly calculate their best interests in the long term. In other words, the overwhelming population of people realize the extreme difference between 80 years and infinity.
I also see a significant chunk of the population truly care if their fellow human being is suffering. Someone might be up at night watching television, and on comes a commercial that asks for them to send a little money that will go a long way to feed a starving child. Whether any charity is legit or a scam, many people donate to them. I live in a world with billions of people. This world also has the internet. Like I said, I based my assumptions from half a life of observation. It seems that a significant portion of the Christian population believes in an eternal torture chamber, whether it be physical torture, like feeling hot flames forever, or mental torture, like having the feeling you get when you lose a loved one . . . forever. Can I put an exact number on what percentage of Christians believe in an eternal torture chamber? No. In this thread, it seems that they are the majority. But, even if only 10% of the Christians I ever saw claimed to believe in an eternal torture chamber, that would still be a huge number.
When my brain factors in
all of the charitable acts done by Christians,
all of the Christians who claim to believe in an eternal torture chamber,
the simple fact that this life is infinitely short when compared with Eternity,
the amount of years I've lived observing the world around me,
and that sixty seconds of torture is extremely cruel,
the resulting calculation is that not only should I have seen one relentless constant preacher who is perfectly sane because this life is infinitely short when compared with eternity, I should have seen many by now.
I have yet to see one.
For me, it's so obvious that it actually feels funny trying to explain it.
Even if you said, "Eh, I don't know, VirginShallConceive. Your assumptions seem a little off, but I'm still pondering your thoughts. It's kinda teetering in my head right now. But hey, interesting observation", I would still feel a little funny that you didn't totally agree.
But, from what you did say, it looks as if we are at extreme ends of this issue. It's not an opinionated type of thing like "I like the freedom to own firearms", or "I don't like the freedom to own firearms". Two people could be polar opposites on firearms, and still both of them can be equally correct.
I don't think that this is the case with this type of assumption. I believe that one of us is way off. Whether it's me or you, it's still strange that we both think the other is way off.
Once again, thank you for engaging in this interesting discussion.
Like I said before, I love post #13. It was a pleasure to read.
But, sometimes the opposing point of view is even more interesting.
Jesus Christ said,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell."
That too is from the sermon on the mount. That is God's standard Jesus is teaching us about.
Nothing about eternal torture there.
G
Guest
Guest
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Virginshallconceive,
While you do make some good points, we ought not rely on our emotional urges to guide our theological framework. The Bible clearly teaches that there is a judgement coming for the wicked that some will not escape and the nature of this punishment will be rendered permanent with no hope of return. However we must understand that these passages that speak on God's punishment are employing language and a type of literary style that we are not familiar with.
I personally do not hold to the eternal torment view of hell (aka the traditional view). To be brief here are a few reasons why, and I pray that you go to the Scriptures to find out for yourself.
1. The destruction of the wicked. I believe that from Genesis to Revelation we see the consistent teaching of death or destruction being God's ultimate punishment for sin. That the wages of sin is death.. not eternal torment. And the price Jesus paid for us on the cross was DEATH... not eternal torment. Jesus overcame.. the GRAVE.. not eternal torment. Jesus fears us from the fear of death... not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second DEATH... not eternal torment. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says that we should fear him who is able to destroy both body AND SOUL in Hell. The Greek word here is ἀπόλλυμι and it means what it sounds like, to destroy. And the context is in regards to Jesus telling them not to fear the one's who can KILL the body but after that can do nothing, the language employed here is not in regards to being brought to ruin or lost, but to be destroyed.. to die by the wrath of God.
2. Passages that are often used by traditionalists such as Revelation 14:9-13 or Revelation 20:10 are apocalyptic literature, and should not be taken literally. This was a literary style familiar with those of the 1st Century and we do great damage to the teaching of Scripture if we are to take these words literally. For example, Isaiah uses this literary style to describe the destruction of Edom.
For ⌊Yahweh has a day of vengeance⌋,
a year of retribution for the strife of Zion.
9Â And its streams shall be changed to pitch and its soil to sulfur,
and its land shall become like burning pitch.
10Â Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall be in ruins;
forever and ever there will be no one who passes through her. (Is 34:8–10).
If you'll notice this the SAME language used in Revelation 14, yet let us ask a few questions. A) Is Edom still burning today? B) Does Edom still have smoke rising from it? C) Does no one still pass through it? The answer to all these questions is of course no.. and this language is implemented to demonstrate the totality of Edom's destruction, not it's continual.
3. Eternal fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, in the Epistle of Jude we see that he uses this instance as an example of those undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. What then happened to Sodom and Gomorrow? Were they tortured forever and ever? No they were utterly destroyed!
4. The Old Testament Jews never had thought up an idea like we do in regards to Hell until the Selucid empire invaded in the 300BC era and brought Hellenistic culture and pagan religion to Israel. A syncretism happened from then on and many differing views on the after life appeared. Prior to this time there was not much thought about the after life.
Ultimately I could go on and on for reasons why, but I think one of the most compelling arguments that I have is that God's victory is total and FINAL. That one day he will triumph and abolish death and hades to the lake of fire to be utterly destroyed and then there will cease to be suffering, sin or death in ALL of God's creation. He will not be torturing those near and dear to us while we enjoy him in the new creation forever and ever, God is going to destroy evil forever! This is the gospel!
but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).
Immortality is in Christ alone and is reserved for only those of the resurrection of the righteous.. who the second death will have NO power over.
Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus
G
Guest
Guest
Do you normally troll? Fitting description. Anyhow...the three verses that you mentioned do NOT say what you said...please have more respect for scripture. Now would you like to have a mature discussion??
Grappler being mortal is not mentioned in the Bible?