Do I have to be a Calvinist to be one of the Elect?

[Runner]

Obviously, I don't. Calvin wasn't born until 1509. Predestination was scarcely a blip on the radar screen of Christianity until Augustine developed the doctrine in response to Pelagianism.

Let's say I happen to be one of the Elect in God's plan. Nothing I can do about it - I'm just fortunate. According to 5-point TULIP Calvinism, I will hear God's call and will find it irresistible.

Let's say I hear God's call in a Russian Orthodox service and respond accordingly. I remain a faithful Russian Orthodox believer all my life - I "persevere," in Calvinist terms. Orthodox theology is about as far from Calvinism as it could get.

Voila, I'm one of the Elect and have responded to God's call, yet I live my Christian life as a non-Calvinist and may even be very opposed to Calvinism.

Seems rather odd, does it not? How about all the faithful Calvinists who, alas, are actually not among the Elect? They've spent their entire lives kidding themselves. Is this a coherent theology?

This is why hardcore, 5-point, double-predestination Calvinists are pretty rare birds anymore. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't make sense.

Water down Calvinism so that some people are the predestined Elect and everyone else has a free-will opportunity to turn to God and join them and ... well, what you then have is scarcely Calvinism at all and is little different from what non-Calvinists believe. 2- or 3-point Calvinism really isn't Calvinism.

Presenting the Gospel message in a Calvinistic way seems dangerous and counterproductive to me. I don't see that Calvinism adds anything worthwhile to the Gospel message. In a way, it's like Once Saved Always Saved - possibly harmless, but possibly very misleading and harmful.

If my Orthodox understanding of salvation is correct, but Calvinism happens to be true, I will have either (1) lost nothing if I happen to be one of the Elect anyway, or (2) wasted my time in Orthodoxy, which is neither here nor there if I'm not one of the Elect since I wouldn't be one of the Elect even if I'd spent my life believing Calvinism.

If I spend my life in Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Calvinist.

 

[jasonc]

Obviously, I don't. Calvin wasn't born until 1509. Predestination was scarcely a blip on the radar screen of Christianity until Augustine developed the doctrine in response to Pelagianism.

Let's say I happen to be one of the Elect in God's plan. Nothing I can do about it - I'm just fortunate. According to 5-point TULIP Calvinism, I will hear God's call and will find it irresistible.

Let's say I hear God's call in a Russian Orthodox service and respond accordingly. I remain a faithful Russian Orthodox believer all my life - I "persevere," in Calvinist terms. Orthodox theology is about as far from Calvinism as it could get.

Voila, I'm one of the Elect and have responded to God's call, yet I live my Christian life as a non-Calvinist and may even be very opposed to Calvinism.

Seems rather odd, does it not? How about all the faithful Calvinists who, alas, are actually not among the Elect? They've spent their entire lives kidding themselves. Is this a coherent theology?

This is why hardcore, 5-point, double-predestination Calvinists are pretty rare birds anymore. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't make sense.

Water down Calvinism so that some people are the predestined Elect and everyone else has a free-will opportunity to turn to God and join them and ... well, what you then have is scarcely Calvinism at all and is little different from what non-Calvinists believe. 2- or 3-point Calvinism really isn't Calvinism.

Presenting the Gospel message in a Calvinistic way seems dangerous and counterproductive to me. I don't see that Calvinism adds anything worthwhile to the Gospel message. In a way, it's like Once Saved Always Saved - possibly harmless, but possibly very misleading and harmful.

If my Orthodox understanding of salvation is correct, but Calvinism happens to be true, I will have either (1) lost nothing if I happen to be one of the Elect anyway, or (2) wasted my time in Orthodoxy, which is neither here nor there if I'm not one of the Elect since I wouldn't be one of the Elect even if I'd spent my life believing Calvinism.

If I spend my life in Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Calvinist.

No
Perhaps attending a reformed church .

My pastor preached my dad's funeral ,dad never met my pastor and didn't attend my reformed church .yet is in heaven even in my reformed church .

Don't confuse caged reformed types with those that aren't .my pastor is a five pointer but isn't gonna die on that hill

 

[brightfame52]

To be one of Gods elect, the requirement is that God the Father had to choose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Obviously, I don't. Calvin wasn't born until 1509. Predestination was scarcely a blip on the radar screen of Christianity until Augustine developed the doctrine in response to Pelagianism.

Let's say I happen to be one of the Elect in God's plan. Nothing I can do about it - I'm just fortunate. According to 5-point TULIP Calvinism, I will hear God's call and will find it irresistible.

Let's say I hear God's call in a Russian Orthodox service and respond accordingly. I remain a faithful Russian Orthodox believer all my life - I "persevere," in Calvinist terms. Orthodox theology is about as far from Calvinism as it could get.

Voila, I'm one of the Elect and have responded to God's call, yet I live my Christian life as a non-Calvinist and may even be very opposed to Calvinism.

Seems rather odd, does it not? How about all the faithful Calvinists who, alas, are actually not among the Elect? They've spent their entire lives kidding themselves. Is this a coherent theology?

This is why hardcore, 5-point, double-predestination Calvinists are pretty rare birds anymore. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't make sense.

Water down Calvinism so that some people are the predestined Elect and everyone else has a free-will opportunity to turn to God and join them and ... well, what you then have is scarcely Calvinism at all and is little different from what non-Calvinists believe. 2- or 3-point Calvinism really isn't Calvinism.

Presenting the Gospel message in a Calvinistic way seems dangerous and counterproductive to me. I don't see that Calvinism adds anything worthwhile to the Gospel message. In a way, it's like Once Saved Always Saved - possibly harmless, but possibly very misleading and harmful.

If my Orthodox understanding of salvation is correct, but Calvinism happens to be true, I will have either (1) lost nothing if I happen to be one of the Elect anyway, or (2) wasted my time in Orthodoxy, which is neither here nor there if I'm not one of the Elect since I wouldn't be one of the Elect even if I'd spent my life believing Calvinism.

If I spend my life in Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Calvinist.

No Calvinist I ever met would admit that they just might NOT be one of the elect before birth. Not one ever admitted that all their feelings of assurance are an illusion and they are not predestined for heaven but the other place.

They will say that you, all the other people besides them, might just be not elected. That’s because they don’t think deeply about it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

To be one of Gods elect, the requirement is that God the Father had to choose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And if He didn’t, doesn’t matter what you believe!

 

[brightfame52]

And if He didn’t, doesn’t matter what you believe!

There you go making a statement I haven't stated, nor as far as i can tell, no one has stated on this thread. Yet the chosen, the elect God will save them by the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the elect will be brought to believe the Truth, God has that under control. Hence Gods elect will not remain deceived by false gospels Matt 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

See being an elect enures one will believe the Truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There you go making a statement I haven't stated, nor as far as i can tell, no one has stated on this thread. Yet the chosen, the elect God will save them by the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the elect will be brought to believe the Truth, God has that under control. Hence Gods elect will not remain deceived by false gospels Matt 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

See being an elect enures one will believe the Truth.

Anyone thinking about the Calvinist position will be drawing the obvious conclusion you cannot answer. So you’ll just say that never said that which is not an answer. But it OK. You cannot answer any objection to Calvinism as there are none. I will have mercy and move on.

 

[brightfame52]

Anyone thinking about the Calvinist position will be drawing the obvious conclusion you cannot answer. So you’ll just say that never said that which is not an answer. But it OK. You cannot answer any objection to Calvinism as there are none. I will have mercy and move on.

You always run around saying someone said something and have not provided the statement. You need to stop doing that here on this forum please.

 

[Whatever]

If I spend my life in Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Calvinist.

Let's change a few words.

If I spend my life in Anti-Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Anti-Calvinist.

 

[jerry63935]

You always run around saying someone said something and have not provided the statement. You need to stop doing that here on this forum please.

here is the real deal i been in Calvinist forums / every scripture i present they deny. then call me a false teacher. when it comes to discussion nothing ever changes . you all have the same scriptures the same answer . when it comes to salvation you folks just dont Line up as the Ecclesiastes writer said it best nothing new under the sun

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You always run around saying someone said something and have not provided the statement. You need to stop doing that here on this forum please.

I asked you a question and you answer is you never said that. I didn’t accuse you saying anything in particular. You need to stop falsely accusing people on this forum.

Calvinists cannot answer how God can be just and sentence people to hell before they were born. I know the response, they ignore this obvious problem as you do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's change a few words.

If I spend my life in Anti-Calvinism and it proves to be false, my understanding of God and his plan of salvation will have been very wrong, my understanding of Jesus and his mission will have been very wrong, and the Gospel message I've been spreading will have been very wrong. I don't predict what the consequences of all that will be, but I think I'd be concerned if I were a Anti-Calvinist.

Except if the Anti/Calvinist is wrong, nothing changes. Either the anti-calvinist was selected to be a part of the Elect before birth or not. Deeds don’t matter at all, only Gods arbitrary selection. It’s a no lose position.

 

[JLB]

To be one of Gods elect, the requirement is that God the Father had to choose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:3-4


It says He chose us “in Him”.

Jesus Christ is the Elect One, everyone who is “in Christ” is elect.


Do you believe a person comes to be “in Christ” by hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?


Notice it goes on to say that we are chosen in Him ”that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love”.


Do you believe Christians who are not holy will receive eternal salvation?



JLB
.

 

[Whatever]

Notice it goes on to say that we are chosen in Him ”that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love”.

Also, it goes on in the next verse to say Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons . . .

So we are predestined for adoption. What else are we predestined for?

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It is an unbroken chain. Those predestined, end up being glorified. Everything in the middle will take place.

Do you believe Christians who are not holy will receive eternal salvation?

They will be holy. There are a lot of professing Christians who are not holy, they will not receive salvation because they were never predestined.

 

[brightfame52]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:3-4


It says He chose us “in Him”.

Jesus Christ is the Elect One, everyone who is “in Christ” is elect.


Do you believe a person comes to be “in Christ” by hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?


Notice it goes on to say that we are chosen in Him ”that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love”.


Do you believe Christians who are not holy will receive eternal salvation?



JLB
.

A Person is Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, before they had any existence to believe. Explain how one can believe to get into Christ when they didn't physically exist, even before the foundation.

Now yes their election will result in them being Holy and unblameable.

 

[Whatever]

Explain how one can believe to get into Christ when they didn't physically exist, even before the foundation.

This is kind of what Paul was trying to explain.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

That is so plain that non-Calvinists have to be just plain anti to reject it.

ESV
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Common English Bible So then, it doesn’t depend on a person’s desire or effort. It depends entirely on God, who shows mercy.

Contemporary English Version Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do.

Easy-to-Read Version So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do.

Good News Translation So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.

How many ways does it have to be said?

 

[brightfame52]

This is kind of what Paul was trying to explain.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

That is so plain that non-Calvinists have to be just plain anti to reject it.

ESV
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Common English Bible So then, it doesn’t depend on a person’s desire or effort. It depends entirely on God, who shows mercy.

Contemporary English Version Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do.

Easy-to-Read Version So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do.

Good News Translation So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.

How many ways does it have to be said?

I agree, its as plain as the nose on our faces, that God doesnt consider our actions, since the emphasis is the choice is made prior to one being born to even make any choices. Duh !

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is kind of what Paul was trying to explain.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

That is so plain that non-Calvinists have to be just plain anti to reject it.

ESV
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Common English Bible So then, it doesn’t depend on a person’s desire or effort. It depends entirely on God, who shows mercy.

Contemporary English Version Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do.

Easy-to-Read Version So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do.

Good News Translation So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.

How many ways does it have to be said?

For Gods so had mercy on every single person that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in should have everlasting life.

 

[brightfame52]

For Gods so had mercy on every single person that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in should have everlasting life.

Thats false, God is Sovereign in His Mercy, and gives it to some, and withholds it from others and hardens them, even unto destruction, they are called the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. Rom 9

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thats false, God is Sovereign in His Mercy, and gives it to some, and withholds it from others and hardens them, even unto destruction, they are called the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. Rom 9

Not the Father of Jesus Christ. He loves the whole world and gave his one begotten son.