Do you believe in predestination ?

[brightfame52]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

What God predestined was that we should be holy and blameless before Him. God did not predestine those who would be saved or damned. Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. God predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world, Jeremiah 1:5.

We were predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. In other words, God's plan for man before the foundation of the world was to take care of it and enjoy all He has created.

The other thing God predestined before the foundation of the world was His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus that all who will believe in Him will have eternal life, John 3:16.

 

[Who Me]

The thing about predesination is that we do not know who will be saved.

God has graciously involved us in the saving of non christians so we have to gosip the gospel to everybody.

 

[Eddie42]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

A very good post, Brightframe! In addition, I'll add the following:

Did we Christians by our own will elect or choose God, or did God by his will elect or choose his own?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, KJV) *Born of God's sovereign will, not man's will

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:30-31, REB) *Faith is God's gift, Eph. 2:8 & Phil. 1:29

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth... What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:18, 22-24, KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30, KJV)

The verse reads "whom" he did foreknow; not "what" he did foreknow about persons. To be known by God is to be loved by God, with an everlasting love:

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying," (Rom 11:2, KJV)

If one is reprobate, not one of the elect, Jesus never knew you, even though by foresight he knew of them:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23, KJV)

Keep in mind, the English "foreknew" in Rom. 8:29 is the Greek proginosko and is used in 1st Peter thus:

"Who verily was foreordained(proginosko) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Pet 1:20, KJV)
"He was predestined(proginosko) before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:20, REB)

This was a major point of the Protestant Reformation against Rome, not just Calvinism; for Martin Luther wrote:

"And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!" Sect. 101

TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

www.truecovenanter.com

 

[WIP]

Did we Christians by our own will elect or choose God, or did God by his will elect or choose his own?

This brought other questions to my mind. Even if God chooses me, is it possible for me to reject His approach? I personally believe the answer is yes. I believe this is where our own free will comes into play. If we cannot reject His gift, can it still be possible to truly love Him? What about preaching the gospel - is there any point if it is impossible to reject God?

 

[Eddie42]

This brought other questions to my mind. Even if God chooses me, is it possible for me to reject His approach? I personally believe the answer is yes. I believe this is where our own free will comes into play. If we cannot reject His gift, can it still be possible to truly love Him? What about preaching the gospel - is there any point if it is impossible to reject God?

Hi WIP, I'll try to answer as best I can:

I distinguish between "free agency" and "free will". In free agency, we are free to believe, embrace or do what our own nature causes us to believe, embrace or reject.

No man has "free will" because we are bound by sin and do not even seek God, Rom. 3:10-18. It takes a sovereign act of God to free us from the clutches of Satan:

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Tim 2:25-26, KJV)

Man has no free will to do spiritual good, he is dead in his trespasses and sins:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ," (by grace ye are saved;) (Eph 2:4-5, KJV) *Dead, not sick

Every single human would reject God unless God gives him the new birth, regenerates him. I am so thankful that God did/does not deal with me as my sinful nature deserves, even as his child, it takes Him to give me the proper will and the strength to obey him:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13, KJV)

God uses the preaching of the gospel to call out his own, and the elect do respond:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:26-28, KJV)

 

[brightfame52]

Lets please look at Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Unto the adoption of Children or the placing as a Son.

Paul writes in Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children/sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus

This therefore tells us that Faith in Christ Jesus, which reveals ones Son-ship with God comes as a result of having been predestinated unto the adoption of Sons.

So Faith in Christ is a blessing of predestination ! And yet many so called believers dont even believe in predestination !

 

[WIP]

If I understand the concept of predestination as it pertains to Christianity, faith, belief, etc., doesn't that negate the cross, evangelism, etc? If God has predestined everything from the beginning of time, what value is found in the cross of Jesus or in preaching or sharing the Gospel of Jesus? The end result is still the same.

 

[Eddie42]

If I understand the concept of predestination as it pertains to Christianity, faith, belief, etc., doesn't that negate the cross, evangelism, etc? If God has predestined everything from the beginning of time, what value is found in the cross of Jesus or in preaching or sharing the Gospel of Jesus? The end result is still the same.

You are confusing predestination with fatalism. Fatalism says 'what will be will be' you can't change it by any action at all. Everything was settled and set in place by some fate or unknown power.

Determinism is where every event is solely dictated by causes, including human action, so the outcome is certain, determined.

Predestination involves means, it is determinism where God steps in and moves upon the elect, in a way mysterious to us causing his own, the elect, to be willing; regenerating and bringing us to faith.

In most theological textbooks, "predestination" is presented the same as "election".

The preceding is my explanation as a layman. But, I view it like the Trinity, I do not need to understand and comprehend God's ways fully, I just accept what He states, his word the Bible. I am bound to believe what he has inspired to be written whether I can have some clear philosophy about it or not. I find predestination being worked out in the following:

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." (Ps 110:3, KJV)
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13, KJV)

For those who are inclined toward more philosophical presentations, I suggest this one by B. B. Warfield:

What Fatallism Is | Monergism

by B. B. WarfieldThis is a sad state of mind that people fall into sometimes, in which they do not know the difference between God and Fate. One of the most

www.monergism.com

or

Is Calvinism Synonymous with Fatalism? | Monergism

A guest post by Steve HaysI've posted most of the definitions at one time or another, but it's useful to collate them in one place. Is Calvinism fatalistic? Is

www.monergism.com

 

[WIP]

You are confusing predestination with fatalism. Fatalism says 'what will be will be' you can't change it by any action at all. Everything was settled and set in place by some fate or unknown power.

Determinism is where every event is solely dictated by causes, including human action, so the outcome is certain, determined.

Predestination involves means, it is determinism where God steps in and moves upon the elect, in a way mysterious to us causing his own, the elect, to be willing; regenerating and bringing us to faith.

In most theological textbooks, "predestination" is presented the same as "election".

The preceding is my explanation as a layman. But, I view it like the Trinity, I do not need to understand and comprehend God's ways fully, I just accept what He states, his word the Bible. I am bound to believe what he has inspired to be written whether I can have some clear philosophy about it or not. I find predestination being worked out in the following:

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." (Ps 110:3, KJV)
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13, KJV)

For those who are inclined toward more philosophical presentations, I suggest this one by B. B. Warfield:

What Fatallism Is | Monergism

by B. B. WarfieldThis is a sad state of mind that people fall into sometimes, in which they do not know the difference between God and Fate. One of the most

www.monergism.com

or

Is Calvinism Synonymous with Fatalism? | Monergism

A guest post by Steve HaysI've posted most of the definitions at one time or another, but it's useful to collate them in one place. Is Calvinism fatalistic? Is

www.monergism.com

I see and I agree that it is not necessary for us to know everything about everything. I have often commented that God will let know what we need to know, when we need to know it. I ask, not because I worry about my salvation but, because I'm curious and wish to understand the topic more. It would be nice to have a clearer understanding of what predestination truly is while it may not be absolutely necessary.

 

[brightfame52]

If I understand the concept of predestination as it pertains to Christianity, faith, belief, etc., doesn't that negate the cross, evangelism, etc? If God has predestined everything from the beginning of time, what value is found in the cross of Jesus or in preaching or sharing the Gospel of Jesus? The end result is still the same.

God predestinated preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on.

 

[Eddie42]

I see and I agree that it is not necessary for us to know everything about everything. I have often commented that God will let know what we need to know, when we need to know it. I ask, not because I worry about my salvation but, because I'm curious and wish to understand the topic more. It would be nice to have a clearer understanding of what predestination truly is while it may not be absolutely necessary.

WIP, I do believe on such a matter as God's election, predestination; our background and experiences do influence how we reason about the Scriptures. Over the years I came to think of the topic along the following lines:

I have no way to understand the following two passages if God did not predestinate individuals to salvation.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9, KJV)

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:30-31, REB)

For instance, say we make "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9, KJV)" somehow mean that God through some form of 'prevenient grace' put each and every man on a level playing field and now it is up to the free will of each individual, I end up with the question, "Why did one believe and another did not believe?" Maybe he had a stronger spark of divinity within him prompting him to believe but his neighbor just did not have as strong a good spark within himself?? Then he has something to boast about since he had more devine spark. Then in the KJV use of a preposition, i find God's choice of individuals and then the death on the cross of Jesus applied to these individuals thus chosen by God, as follows:

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19, KJV)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (John 17:6, KJV)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9, KJV)

From this verse in Revelation I also get the idea what "world" meant in John 3:16, Gentiles as well as Jews! To my mind, John wrote both books. I find this verse a strong argument for Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement.

 

[Eddie42]

I find that Article 17 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England, describes predestination well, but it also contains a caution for us all. I quote Article 17:

"PREDESTINATION to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby, before the foundations of the world were laid, He hath constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by His Spirit working in due season; they through grace obey the calling; they be justified freely; they be made sons of God by adoption; they be made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ; they walk religiously in good works; and at length by God's mercy they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feeling in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation or into wretchlessness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise as they be generally set forth in Holy Scripture; and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God."

https://cofec.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-39-Articles-of-Religion.pdf

I've underlined what I understand as a good precaution stated in this Confession of Faith.

 

[Edward]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

That's actually a pretty good question Brother. I think the answer is fairly simple too.

I could say that I believe in predestination. I can also say that I believe in Time and that God created Time for us to live within.

Knowing that God lives outside of Time and space, it's easy to visualize God, outside of time can both be looking at the beginning and looking at the end of Time, so He knows and can see how it turns out. (Imagine a helicopter above a parade high enough that he can see both ends of the entire parade from the staging area to the end. We see the parade as...linear. We are boots on the ground and see it come down the street and pass us and turned a corner somewhere out of our sight!)

That said, the Scriptures are just riddled with the repeated admonition to...seek, knock, choose life, and so forth. So we do have a free will and find ourselves having to make choices everyday. God most certainly will not violate our free will. So predestination is really nothing more than, God knew immediately in the beginning who all would (will, Did!) choose wisely because He already seen the end, already is at the end. But it is still our choice to make. Every day.

The scriptures say, ask and ye shall receive. Back in the Noah covenant is where God said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man...meaning, He will never interfere again with mankind's free will like He did with the flood. From now on and after that, we have to ask. We have to ask in prayer. Then your miracle can come.
Ask and ye shall receive.

Hope this makes sense, lol. But it is truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

God predestinated preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on.

For what purpose if God already knew who would be His own?

 

[for_his_glory]

Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world for God's purpose here on earth, Jeremiah 1:5.

 

[Edward]

For what purpose if God already knew who would be His own?

That is the right question!

I think that, in His plan to create man in His image, that man would have to learn to know both good and evil. So AFAIK, mankind is (so far) the only beings created outside of heaven. If we are destined to be one with God, In Christ and Christ in us, then we absolutely will have to learn both good and evil and so that is what God is doing I think. He's merely introducing us to death and evil before He introduces us to good and Heaven so that we can learn to love in the harshest of environments, walking with no fear...

Besides, this way we're all going to appreciate Heaven a little bit more when we do finally get there, than we would had we been created already in Heaven. (I know but that's another thread, lol)

And I also learned that....some things man is unable to learn without suffering. Things the Lord does want us to learn.

Project Earth Carnival. Where everything is a funhouse and all lead to death and most people are spiritual toddlers. You can't let go of Daddy's hand. Get in trouble quick here don't let loose!

 

[Eddie42]

That's actually a pretty good question Brother. I think the answer is fairly simple too.

I could say that I believe in predestination. I can also say that I believe in Time and that God created Time for us to live within.

Knowing that God lives outside of Time and space, it's easy to visualize God, outside of time can both be looking at the beginning and looking at the end of Time, so He knows and can see how it turns out. (Imagine a helicopter above a parade high enough that he can see both ends of the entire parade from the staging area to the end. We see the parade as...linear. We are boots on the ground and see it come down the street and pass us and turned a corner somewhere out of our sight!)

That said, the Scriptures are just riddled with the repeated admonition to...seek, knock, choose life, and so forth. So we do have a free will and find ourselves having to make choices everyday. God most certainly will not violate our free will. So predestination is really nothing more than, God knew immediately in the beginning who all would (will, Did!) choose wisely because He already seen the end, already is at the end. But it is still our choice to make. Every day.

The scriptures say, ask and ye shall receive. Back in the Noah covenant is where God said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man...meaning, He will never interfere again with mankind's free will like He did with the flood. From now on and after that, we have to ask. We have to ask in prayer. Then your miracle can come.
Ask and ye shall receive.

Hope this makes sense, lol. But it is truth.

You have written "God knew immediately in the beginning who all would (will, Did!) choose wisely" and do you wish to keep that thought?

So, only the wise get saved and the foolish are damned?

Does that not risk us becoming wise in our own conceits?

"For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;" (Rom 11:25, ASV)

Doesn't that oppose the command through paul?

"Be of the same mind one toward another. Set not your mind on high things, but condescend to things that are lowly. Be not wise in your own conceits." (Rom 12:16, ASV)

Is it man who chose wisely, or was it that "God chose"?

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Cor 1:25-31, ASV)

Is salvation of man's free will or God's will?

"And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations." (Ezek 36:23-30, ASV)

 

[Hidden In Him]

What God predestined was that we should be holy and blameless before Him. God did not predestine those who would be saved or damned.

Agreed. Determinism doesn't account well for the existence of Satan, IMO. It in effect creates a monstrous God, who determined not only to bring saving grace to some, but to instill in one of His angels a hatred towards mankind that is beyond what we can imagine; a being who daily enjoys watching his servants murder children and sacrifice human beings on his altars, and subjects some to the worse types of tortures, not only here but in Hell; a ruler who orders his demons to incite men, women and children every day across this planet to commit suicide, so badly filled with grief as to take their own lives.

Certainly no offense to Eddie or anyone else who thinks this is what scripture teaches, but it is a truly grievous theology to me, and completely unreconcilable with my worldview and my knowledge of what God is like, and what His true heart is towards man.

 

[Edward]

You have written "God knew immediately in the beginning who all would (will, Did!) choose wisely" and do you wish to keep that thought?

So, only the wise get saved and the foolish are damned?

Does that not risk us becoming wise in our own conceits?

"For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;" (Rom 11:25, ASV)

Doesn't that oppose the command through paul?

"Be of the same mind one toward another. Set not your mind on high things, but condescend to things that are lowly. Be not wise in your own conceits." (Rom 12:16, ASV)

Is it man who chose wisely, or was it that "God chose"?

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Cor 1:25-31, ASV)

Is salvation of man's free will or God's will?

"And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations." (Ezek 36:23-30, ASV)

You could be straining at gnats. I suppose I was speaking rather loosely but scripture does say,

Proverbs 4:7
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.../

And there's always,

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

Isn't that sort of plain and simple. We have a choice, we have freewill.