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Was it two men,or two olive trees?
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I can show you over 50 verses which show that these 12 Tribes are Christianity.
Cameron said:The Scriptures say God has not destined us for wrath, but we are to endure persecutions and tribulation. They persecuted Jesus, they'll persecute us; but have joy! Jesus overcame!
I could not have answered better if I tried. I believe there is as much reason to believe that it could be Moses and Elijah but either way, it definately is two Prophets, not a mystical group of people or things.Soteriagal said:Concerning the two witnesses, your theories are very interesting. But later on in Rev. it says this about them:
10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
Not a group, not the 12 tribes, not Christians, just TWO PROPHETS.....
who have not yet DIED.....Enoch and Elijah.
The simpliest explanation is most often the right one.
Cameron said:Welcome, Gorges.
Nice to see you here.
I'm sure we'd love to hear your perspective on the Two Witnesses and how you think they relate to the Jewish feasts.
Cameron said:Georges,
Explain more about the Days of Awe - Yamim Noraim.
Cameron....this is a pretty cool deal in regard to Bible prophecy. In Judaism, it is understood that on Rosh Hashanah, the gates of heaven are opened and all men pass "under the rod" for judgment. At this time three books are opened and men are judged according to their faith and deeds. These are judged by Torah standards.
The names of the righteous are written in the Book of Life. The names of the wicked are written in the Book of the Wicked as vessels fit for destruction. Those who are neither righteous or wicked are written into the Book of Inbetween. This happens on Rosh Hashanah.
The Righteous are saved, the wicked are not, and the inbetween have until Yom Kippur to repent and return. At Yom Kippur the "Great Trump" signals the closing of the "gates of heaven" and another judgment occurs. The inbetween who have repented are inscribed into the "Book of Life", those who haven't repented are written into the "Book of the Wicked".
The days inbetween RH and YK are the Yamim Noraim (Days of Awe) when the inbetweener's are given a chance to repent. This is an exact type of the tribulation period, right down to the 7 days inbetween RH and YK.
Why couldn't they refer to the time after the 144,000 are sealed by God in Rev. 7 and then protected through the God's Wrath?
Because of the timing and descriptions given in Rev 4 and 5. Both of these chapters are Rosh Hashanah themed.
Here's how I see it working with these Feasts.
Rapture happens at the Stars, moon and starts event.
The 144,000 have been rounded up in the Kidron valley - last remnant of those who are still faithful Jews.
I see the 144000 as Messianic Christians....who are not believers in Christ (initially), but become believers....(after witnessing the rapture perhaps). This would follow Chapter events (I do realize there are multiple timelines throughout the book). I'll get back to you later on.....My pager just went off and I am on call......
Up on the Temple Mount is a idol that they are supposed to bow to as in Daniel 3. Naturally they would rather die.
It is Jewish tradition that the False Messiah will proclaim himself God (or the Messiah). The Jew's (not necessarily the 144000, but they may be included) refuse to bow to him or accept him...as a result many are killed, and many "flee to the wilderness". That is Jewish tradition.
As they are being prepared to die for failure to comply. Jesus arrives, lands on Mt of Olives (Acts 1:11), splits it apart and provides a way of escape for the 144,000 (Zechariah 14:4).
I don't think it will be limited to the 144000 Messianic Christians only.....however 2/3's of the Jews will be killed during that time period.
During the Days of Awe they learn to retrospect and realize that Jesus is their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) and then become the First Fruits (Revelation 14:4) of those to beleive as the 70th Week is over (Yom Kippur) and God reigns. All during this time the Two Witness have been testifying as you say.
dcookcan said:Georges/Cameron
I am interested in hearing more of what you have got to say on these things. I am not sure how you can support the pre-trib theory, but that is not important right now.
For me there are a many (I say many but it may be a few) anyway it is the connection of the term "The Last Trump" with Rosh Hashanah. Of course Judaism refers to the "Last Trump" in reference to the "First Trump", that being the 2 horns of the "Ram caught in the thicket" as Issac's replacement. The "First Trump" was blown at Sinai (Ex 19), the "Last Trump" will be blown in the Future to gather Israel. The Jewish liturgy used during the Rosh Hashanah ceremony includes as one of it's themes, resurrection. That's just one item.
Rosh Hashanah is actually not a scripturally valid name for the "Jewish New Year". In scripture, it is actually referenced as Yom Teruah, which is Day of Trumpets. Rosh Hashanah (head of the year) is only referenced once in the Tanach and it is actually referencing Yom Kippur:
Ezekiel 40:1
In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
I can't argue your point...however, I am very guilty of using the Jewish extra Biblical sources as reference to support Biblical points for clarification.
A lot of people in past forums have criticized me for using Jewish resources but I use them to better understand their concepts.
This is a reference to the beginning of the Jubilee Year.
Yom Teruah is traditionally kept for two days because they knew that the month had only 29 or 30 days but they did not know the day or the hour that the new moon, which signifies the new month, would arrive. Therefore, they began the feast on the 29th day of the sixth month, just in case the new moon arrived on the 29th. If it didn't show, then they knew it would come the next day.
Glad to see you reference Rosh Hashanah and Yom Teruah and not the Shofar Hagadol of Yom Kippur.
Also, to throw another important point into the whole end time scenario, the feast of Tabernacles (i.e. Sukkot) is called the Feast of Ingathering. I think you might be missing the importance of the meaning of this feast that lasts for seven days, culminating in Shemini Etzeret (the eighth day), which is a reference to the millenial kingdom.
I think the greater evidence points to Sukkot as a picture of the Messianic Kingdom....I think Shemini Etzeret is a picture of life after the Messianic Millennium.....just something to consider...thanks for the dialogue.