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DO YOU KNOW WHO THE TWO WITNESSES ARE?

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HI

Here is who the Two witnesses are.

These are perhaps the most misunderstood prophecy in Rev. I have heard they are Moses Enoch Elijah so forth and so on. Of course not one verse to back any of it.

You must trust the words of God no matter where it takes you away from Traditional Christian Teachings.

Jesus ALONE IS THE ONE WHO REVEALS ………………………..JESUS ALONE HAS THE ANSWERS TO THE SYMBOLS.

We are told they are witnesses………………. We are given Two symbols that tell us who these are.

3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Ok So what is an Olive Tree in the Bible

Jeremiah 11:

16 The LORD once called you, 'A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit'; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.

And again in Hosea14: 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree, and his fragrance like Lebanon.

And Paul calls Israel the Olive Tree in Romans 11: 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Lampstands are the Churches in Revelation 1:

20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The Greek word for church here was " the assembly of called out ones" which is what Israel was the called out ones. So a Lampstand means called out ones.

So the Twelve Tribes are the Olive Tree and we are Grafted into the Olive Tree when we are saved.

So TRUE Christianity is the Olive Tree. I can show you verses to prove that many of the Christians of Europe are in fact of the lost tribes of Israel.

Ok so who are Gods Witnesses does Jesus also say the Olive Tree is his Witnesses.

Isaiah 43:
1 But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.......

9 Let all the nations gather together, and let the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to justify them, and let them hear and say, It is true. 10 "You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48: And ye are witnesses of these things.

Acts:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts:1:22: Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts:2:32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts:3:15: And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; [/color]whereof we are witnesses.[/color]

Acts:5:32: And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts:10:39: And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts:14:17: Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Acts:22:15: For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

1Thes:2:10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

1Jn:1:2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3Jn:1:6: Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:

Rv:1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

WHAT DOES A WITNESS DO. WELL THEY TESTIFY DON'T THEY

Acts:10:42: And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Acts:20:24: But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

1Pt:5:12: By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

1Jn:4:14: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Deut:17 6: At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Duet 19: 15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sins: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18: 16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

II Corinthians 13: 1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.

So The House of Israel and the House of Judah are the 12 Tribes and the Two Olive Trees. And Christianity. Now I can show you over 50 verses which show that these 12 Tribes are Christianity. If you like I will post them in another post.

Think of it this way before each major event in history of his plan God has sent prophets.

To Egypt to Edom to Assyria, To Israel first then To Judah to Babylon.

Now…………………To warn of the Great Tribulation……………………. To herald the return of the Lord…………… God sends 144,000 prophets.

So 144,000 that stand against the Anti Christ and declare that there is only one God and the truth of the Prophets for this the AC rises up and kills them. They are the beginning of the end once they are sealed this evil world's fate is sealed.

Is that enough verses to show everyone the truth of this matter
 
1 Kings 6:31-33
   31And for the entering of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive tree:
   32The two doors were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.



Zechariah 4 
   1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

   2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

   3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

   4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

   5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

   6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

   7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

   8Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

   9The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

   10For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

   11Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

   12And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

   13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

   14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.



The inner sanctuary is symbolic of the 144,000 which is square, the two olive trees are the doors by which the inner sanctuary is built and entered. In the two passages above we see the significance of two olive trees as pertaining to Solomon's temple and the second temple as well. It seems that the two Olive Trees remain significant in the building of the 3rd Temple which is not built by human hands.
 
Concerning the two witnesses, your theories are very interesting. But later on in Rev. it says this about them:

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Not a group, not the 12 tribes, not Christians, just TWO PROPHETS.....

who have not yet DIED.....Enoch and Elijah.

The simpliest explanation is most often the right one.

:biggrin
 
I believe that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah, as they accompanied Jesus at the Transfiguration [Matt. 17 ]. Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree that the simplest and plain reading is probably correct given the pattern of referring to the Two Witnesses as two individuals in Zechariah 4. One represented the priestly function (Joshua the high priest) and the other the civil function (Zerrubabel).

Their purpose and context? Rebuilding the destroyed Temple despite fears of the surrounding peoples. They stopped because of it before and then the dynamic duo Haggai and Zechariah teamed tagged the returning exiles to goad them back into obediently following God and rebuilding His temple.

Hey does that context sound a little similar to what is read in Revelation 11? How about those nations they were afraid of? Another similar issue with Rev. 11.

The pattern in the OT = real people. So why change?
It's like the Second Coming and First Coming. The pattern of the First Coming was many deed over a period of time. So why should I think differently about the Second? He's going to stand on the Mt. of Olives one day, on Mt. Zion on a different day and slaughter the nations at Armageddon on a different day yet again.
 
I can show you over 50 verses which show that these 12 Tribes are Christianity.

That makes no sense. Christians did not even exist when the Tabernacle was builit in the Old Testament and surrounded by the 12 Tribes.

"Christians" goes against what he says in Revelations.
Revelations 7:4 He names each tribe specifically.

AND WE KNOW he is talking about the original tribes because one is missing due to their idolatry.

They cannot be "Christians" because the "Church" has already been raptured before the tribulation starts.
 
The Scriptures say God has not destined us for wrath, but we are to endure persecutions and tribulation. They persecuted Jesus, they'll persecute us; but have joy! Jesus overcame!
 
Cameron said:
The Scriptures say God has not destined us for wrath, but we are to endure persecutions and tribulation. They persecuted Jesus, they'll persecute us; but have joy! Jesus overcame!

Welcome to our site Cameron, I see you came form Heidi's site :wink: and the author of the new book I want. Prophecy's Architecture: How to build an End Times Doctrine (Strongtower Publishing: http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/) I have Heidi's book Before God's wrath and Dave Bussard book Who will be left behind and when? Besides VanKampen's the Sign and Rosenthal's Pre-wrath rapture of the church.

I get e-mails form Heidi's Prewarth site on Yahoo all the time. I don't post much there but I do enjoy reading the discussions that go on there. Anyway, I glad you are here and I look forward to reading what you have to say.
 
The two witnesses were sent by God. God sent us the answer.

The answer is to witness, to stand and testify on the strenght of personal observation, in a court of law, under oath , that something is true. The hard part is figuring out what we are suppost to witness.

The Two witnesses represent the spirit of God, they are poring out His essence His spirit onto us so that we may be better prepared for the son of Man than the first time. We now have three spirts to look for instead of one.....and a significant major clue....they will be as one and they will die in the streets at the same time.

So "every eye has seen them...all languages etc. "who has died in the streets... at the same time?
 
Soteriagal said:
Concerning the two witnesses, your theories are very interesting. But later on in Rev. it says this about them:

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Not a group, not the 12 tribes, not Christians, just TWO PROPHETS.....

who have not yet DIED.....Enoch and Elijah.

The simpliest explanation is most often the right one.

:biggrin
I could not have answered better if I tried. I believe there is as much reason to believe that it could be Moses and Elijah but either way, it definately is two Prophets, not a mystical group of people or things.
 
Hi all.....I'm new to the site but not the prophecy forums....I'm looking forward to interesting discussion as I generally view things from a Messianic (Jewish) viewpoint.

In regard to the the Two Witnesses....it is accepted in Judaism that both Elijah and Moses will announce the arrival of the Messiah.

This agrees with the sighting of Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Tranfiguration with Jesus.
 
Welcome, Gorges.

Nice to see you here.

I'm sure we'd love to hear your perspective on the Two Witnesses and how you think they relate to the Jewish feasts.
 
Cameron said:
Welcome, Gorges.

Nice to see you here.

I'm sure we'd love to hear your perspective on the Two Witnesses and how you think they relate to the Jewish feasts.

Hi Cameron,

Yeh got kicked out of the other forum....actually the Mods didn't like my pushing the importance of Judaism in bible prophecy....they actually told me I couldn't mention anything Jewish anymore.....took a couple of years but I think they got tired of it....I hope to bring an interesting contribution to this forum if allow.

Now to your question.....as you know, I'm a big time biblical feast day/prophecy guy. In regard to the two witnesses....

As I support a pretrib rapture situation....Rosh Hashanah being the Jewish feast day associated with that, the Yamim Noraim (the days of awe) of course follow Rosh Hashanah and prepared the Jewish people for Yom Kippur.

So the way I see it,

Rapture - Rosh Hashanah
Tribulation period - Yamim Noraim
Second Coming - Yom Kippur

Now, the Yamim Noraim are 10 days (7 days if you subtract Rosh Hashanah (2 day feast) and Yom Kippur) of introspection, repent and return to God......These are the themes to which the 2 witnesses will preach. Their goal, to get the people to repent and return to God before the final Yom Kippur. So I guess to answer your question to me...I'd have to say they are involved with all three feast days....most certainly the Days of Awe...or the Yamim Noraim.

Also, it is interesting to note at the Mt. of Transiguration that Peter suggests that 3 tabernacles (sukkahs) be built for the transfigured individuals. The Feast of Taberncles is a picture of the Messianic Millennial Kingdom.
 
Georges,

Explain more about the Days of Awe - Yamim Noraim.

Why couldn't they refer to the time after the 144,000 are sealed by God in Rev. 7 and then protected through the God's Wrath?

Here's how I see it working with these Feasts.

Rapture happens at the Stars, moon and starts event.
The 144,000 have been rounded up in the Kidron valley - last remnant of those who are still faithful Jews. Up on the Temple Mount is a idol that they are supposed to bow to as in Daniel 3. Naturally they would rather die. As they are being prepared to die for failure to comply. Jesus arrives, lands on Mt of Olives (Acts 1:11), splits it apart and provides a way of escape for the 144,000 (Zechariah 14:4). During the Days of Awe they learn to retrospect and realize that Jesus is their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) and then become the First Fruits (Revelation 14:4) of those to beleive as the 70th Week is over (Yom Kippur) and God reigns. All during this time the Two Witness have been testifying as you say.
 
Georges/Cameron

I am interested in hearing more of what you have got to say on these things. I am not sure how you can support the pre-trib theory, but that is not important right now.

Rosh Hashanah is actually not a scripturally valid name for the "Jewish New Year". In scripture, it is actually referenced as Yom Teruah, which is Day of Trumpets. Rosh Hashanah (head of the year) is only referenced once in the Tanach and it is actually referencing Yom Kippur:
Ezekiel 40:1
In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.

This is a reference to the beginning of the Jubilee Year.

Yom Teruah is traditionally kept for two days because they knew that the month had only 29 or 30 days but they did not know the day or the hour that the new moon, which signifies the new month, would arrive. Therefore, they began the feast on the 29th day of the sixth month, just in case the new moon arrived on the 29th. If it didn't show, then they knew it would come the next day.

Also, to throw another important point into the whole end time scenario, the feast of Tabernacles (i.e. Sukkot) is called the Feast of Ingathering. I think you might be missing the importance of the meaning of this feast that lasts for seven days, culminating in Shemini Etzeret (the eighth day), which is a reference to the millenial kingdom.
 
Cameron said:
Georges,

Explain more about the Days of Awe - Yamim Noraim.

Cameron....this is a pretty cool deal in regard to Bible prophecy. In Judaism, it is understood that on Rosh Hashanah, the gates of heaven are opened and all men pass "under the rod" for judgment. At this time three books are opened and men are judged according to their faith and deeds. These are judged by Torah standards.

The names of the righteous are written in the Book of Life. The names of the wicked are written in the Book of the Wicked as vessels fit for destruction. Those who are neither righteous or wicked are written into the Book of Inbetween. This happens on Rosh Hashanah.

The Righteous are saved, the wicked are not, and the inbetween have until Yom Kippur to repent and return. At Yom Kippur the "Great Trump" signals the closing of the "gates of heaven" and another judgment occurs. The inbetween who have repented are inscribed into the "Book of Life", those who haven't repented are written into the "Book of the Wicked".

The days inbetween RH and YK are the Yamim Noraim (Days of Awe) when the inbetweener's are given a chance to repent. This is an exact type of the tribulation period, right down to the 7 days inbetween RH and YK.



Why couldn't they refer to the time after the 144,000 are sealed by God in Rev. 7 and then protected through the God's Wrath?

Because of the timing and descriptions given in Rev 4 and 5. Both of these chapters are Rosh Hashanah themed.

Here's how I see it working with these Feasts.

Rapture happens at the Stars, moon and starts event.
The 144,000 have been rounded up in the Kidron valley - last remnant of those who are still faithful Jews.

I see the 144000 as Messianic Christians....who are not believers in Christ (initially), but become believers....(after witnessing the rapture perhaps). This would follow Chapter events (I do realize there are multiple timelines throughout the book). I'll get back to you later on.....My pager just went off and I am on call......

Up on the Temple Mount is a idol that they are supposed to bow to as in Daniel 3. Naturally they would rather die.

It is Jewish tradition that the False Messiah will proclaim himself God (or the Messiah). The Jew's (not necessarily the 144000, but they may be included) refuse to bow to him or accept him...as a result many are killed, and many "flee to the wilderness". That is Jewish tradition.

As they are being prepared to die for failure to comply. Jesus arrives, lands on Mt of Olives (Acts 1:11), splits it apart and provides a way of escape for the 144,000 (Zechariah 14:4).

I don't think it will be limited to the 144000 Messianic Christians only.....however 2/3's of the Jews will be killed during that time period.

During the Days of Awe they learn to retrospect and realize that Jesus is their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) and then become the First Fruits (Revelation 14:4) of those to beleive as the 70th Week is over (Yom Kippur) and God reigns. All during this time the Two Witness have been testifying as you say.

Cameron....It may be possible that Rosh Hashanah (Rapture), Yamim Noraim (7 days of Awe), and Yom Kippur (Second Coming) occur within the 10 day time frame as the occur yearly in the Jewish religious year. I say this based on the Feast Day relationship during Jesus' first coming.

Passover - Death
Hag Ha Motzah (Unleavened Bread) - Burial
Bikkurim (First Fruits) - Resurrection
Pentecost - Gathering, another type of First Fruits.

These all happened in a very short period of time. It may be that this is true during the future with the Fall feast days. 7 days would work with the wedding ceremony tradition also. But......it is tough getting around the Rosh Hashanah terminology used in Rev 4, 5 and the chapter sequence of events.....I'll have to do more research on that.....
 
dcookcan said:
Georges/Cameron

I am interested in hearing more of what you have got to say on these things. I am not sure how you can support the pre-trib theory, but that is not important right now.

For me there are a many (I say many but it may be a few) anyway it is the connection of the term "The Last Trump" with Rosh Hashanah. Of course Judaism refers to the "Last Trump" in reference to the "First Trump", that being the 2 horns of the "Ram caught in the thicket" as Issac's replacement. The "First Trump" was blown at Sinai (Ex 19), the "Last Trump" will be blown in the Future to gather Israel. The Jewish liturgy used during the Rosh Hashanah ceremony includes as one of it's themes, resurrection. That's just one item.

Rosh Hashanah is actually not a scripturally valid name for the "Jewish New Year". In scripture, it is actually referenced as Yom Teruah, which is Day of Trumpets. Rosh Hashanah (head of the year) is only referenced once in the Tanach and it is actually referencing Yom Kippur:
Ezekiel 40:1
In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.

I can't argue your point...however, I am very guilty of using the Jewish extra Biblical sources as reference to support Biblical points for clarification.

A lot of people in past forums have criticized me for using Jewish resources but I use them to better understand their concepts.

This is a reference to the beginning of the Jubilee Year.

Yom Teruah is traditionally kept for two days because they knew that the month had only 29 or 30 days but they did not know the day or the hour that the new moon, which signifies the new month, would arrive. Therefore, they began the feast on the 29th day of the sixth month, just in case the new moon arrived on the 29th. If it didn't show, then they knew it would come the next day.

Glad to see you reference Rosh Hashanah and Yom Teruah and not the Shofar Hagadol of Yom Kippur.

Also, to throw another important point into the whole end time scenario, the feast of Tabernacles (i.e. Sukkot) is called the Feast of Ingathering. I think you might be missing the importance of the meaning of this feast that lasts for seven days, culminating in Shemini Etzeret (the eighth day), which is a reference to the millenial kingdom.

I think the greater evidence points to Sukkot as a picture of the Messianic Kingdom....I think Shemini Etzeret is a picture of life after the Messianic Millennium.....just something to consider...thanks for the dialogue.
 
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