Doctines?

[WIP]

I am often confused when I see various labels used such as a Calvinist or Armenian or Post-modernism or others. I searched for descriptions of Christian systems and found hundreds of them including these mentioned here. Some say it is helpful for identifying a person's core system. I started this thread because I would like to understand how these differ. I may not contribute too much other than maybe to ask questions but I'm hoping through discussion that we might be able to offer some helpful information for me as well as others that may be as confused as I am. Thanks.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

Friendly reminder: Its arminianism, after Jacobus Arminius, not armenianism, as in Armenia the country ;)

Here is a good article on the differences between the two:

Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

Compare Calvinism vs. Arminianism side by side and learn why these doctrines form one of the most divisive debates in the history of the church.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[WIP]

Friendly reminder: Its arminianism, after Jacobus Arminius, not armenianism, as in Armenia the country ;)

Here is a good article on the differences between the two:

Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

Compare Calvinism vs. Arminianism side by side and learn why these doctrines form one of the most divisive debates in the history of the church.

www.thoughtco.com

Thanks for the clarification.

Having read through the link you provided, Calvinism sounds like it totally debunks Christ's command to go and make disciples. Why bother if everything has already been predetermined by God and nothing will change it? Arminianism seems to be more in line with what I believe.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity of one Lord, one faith (Christ Jesus) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is only one true doctrine and that is what Christ Jesus has already taught. Why would we even consider following the doctrine of other so called Christian systems as they differ from each other.

The spirit of Jezebel has her own twisted doctrine of devils within the so called Christian systems and we need to be aware of the devices of Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy. God confounded the language at the tower of Babel to bring Himself a nation that would honor Him and through Him be a blessing to all the nations.

 

[WIP]

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity of one Lord, one faith (Christ Jesus) and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is only one true doctrine and that is what Christ Jesus has already taught. Why would we even consider following the doctrine of other so called Christian systems as they differ from each other.

The spirit of Jezebel has her own twisted doctrine of devils within the so called Christian systems and we need to be aware of the devices of Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy. God confounded the language at the tower of Babel to bring Himself a nation that would honor Him and through Him be a blessing to all the nations.

This is precisely why I am asking these questions. Why is it necessary to claim I am Arminian or I am Calvanist or I am whatever except for Christian?

 

[for_his_glory]

This is precisely why I am asking these questions. Why is it necessary to claim I am Arminian or I am Calvanist or I am whatever except for Christian?

It's only necessary for self proclamation and nothing more than causing division in the unity of the Spirit. I don't even like the fact of calling myself a Christian anymore as it has become stigmatize through all these so called Christian systems. I call myself a blood bought child of the most high God of grace and mercy for that is who I am in Christ Jesus.

 

[dianegcook]

I don't label myself as any.
If there is some truth to any of the sects, Then that is truth, because many sects do have some truths and somethings, I totally disagree with.

I am a seeker of truth...no matter where the chips fall.
If I believe this, some will say I am a Calvinist, or Jehovah witness, etc... which I am not..
I do not agree with EVERY THING that they believe.

You have Baptist, Methodist, Protestant , Catholic, Pentecostal and Moravian.....etc.
The same thing, don't agree with ALL their doctrines.

 

[Nathan12]

Some say it is helpful for identifying a person's core system.

Yes, it is definitely helpful to know what the core beliefs of Christians are, especially in this day and age.

Theopedia (as a starting point) can help people understand the various belief systems that exist in Christianity. Got Questions is another good source. The statements of faith of various churches/denominations provide more indepth information. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us the full range of Catholic doctrines, while the Westminster Confession of Faith presents Reformed Theology (which is not exactly Lutheran either).

Many Christians have been indoctrinated into the beliefs of their denominations, but have not taken the time to see whether the Bible supports all those beliefs. However, God holds every Christian accountable for knowing the truth from His Word. See Revelation 1-3.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

Thanks for the clarification.

Having read through the link you provided, Calvinism sounds like it totally debunks Christ's command to go and make disciples. Why bother if everything has already been predetermined by God and nothing will change it? Arminianism seems to be more in line with what I believe.

They were predestined to go and make disciples. ba dum tshh

On a serious note: My problem with it, after coming out of it is that, its really a gamble salvation. They do preach perseverance of the saints, once saved always saved, but the thing about calvinism is, your salvation is less secure than someone who believes you have to maintain it by obedience. Why?
Because you can NEVER BE SURE, if you are one of the elect of God chosen to salvation from the foundation of the world.

Sad system. I also believe it makes the devil unemployed, since God is already predestining all this wickedness to take place

 

[Christ_empowered]

I lean towards the basics of Calvinism (TULIP, what I call Calvinism 101) because I was raised liberal Presbyterian and then received some in depth psychotherapy from a conservative Calvinist minister. and so...

this was all before I "got saved." that's the other thing....I live in The Bible Belt, always have, and 'getting saved' always struck me as so meaningless, because it was in the culture and the people I knew 'back then' who got saved walked away...usually the same, sometimes worse. 'Religion makes good people better and bad people worse' I think is the saying that applies there. having said all that...

my 'take' on it, per my reading, upbringing, life experiences, etc., is that salvation is God's work in the human being's life (i believe old school texts call us Christians 'vessles of mercy')...human beings who are called out of darkness, out of the miry clay (away from the 'vessels of wrath'). The big one that stands out to me w/ Calvinsim 101 is the T-total depravity. One can go to a high emotions church, they'll put on modern Christian jamz, you'll 'make a decision for Christ..."

or did you? can you? I couldn't. Total depravity...because of Adamic sin, we're all so (literally) hell bent away from God, it requires an act of supreme mercy to bring us to Him. And yet...

because -all- are created in His image and -all- are His creatures, -all- are required to believe and obey...

but only The Elect have been chosen (thru no merit of our/their own, btw) from way back, back when God was making His master plan for mankind...

to be recipients of the grace and mercy (hence, 'vessels of mercy') needed to draw nigh unto Him and be redeemed, etc.

www.ligonier.org

RC Sproul was -pure genius- , btw.

 

[Nathan12]

Why is it necessary to claim I am Arminian or I am Calvanist or I am whatever except for Christian?

Sooner or later every Christian must determine from Scripture what they believe. While there are some fundamentals which are common to all Bible-believing Christians, there are also some seriously divergent beliefs which divide Christians.

The problem with Calvinism is that it promotes "another Gospel". What it teaches is that (a) God elects some for salvation and others for damnation, (b) Christ died only for the sins of the elect, (c) therefore they are saved by "irresistible" grace, and that (d) saving faith is a "gift" of God to the elect only. This is all summarized in the acronym TULIP.

T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[dianegcook]

Sooner or later every Christian must determine from Scripture what they believe. While there are some fundamentals which are common to all Bible-believing Christians, there are also some seriously divergent beliefs which divide Christians.

The problem with Calvinism is that it promotes "another Gospel". What it teaches is that (a) God elects some for salvation and others for damnation, (b) Christ died only for the sins of the elect, (c) therefore they are saved by "irresistible" grace, and that (d) saving faith is a "gift" of God to the elect only. This is all summarized in the acronym TULIP.

T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints.

Yes, that is true.
Which contradicts John 3:16
But, there is some truth to it.
Jer.1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, before thou cometh forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom.11:4,5
I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Like Saul, he persecuted Christians.
But God can intervene in his life, he was chosen, thumped his gourd on the road to Damascas, blinded him, but really made him see.
Mary was predestined...
Judas was predestined.
You are destined to be here at this time...
The purpose of God.
His will be done.

 

[stovebolts]

It's only necessary for self proclamation and nothing more than causing division in the unity of the Spirit. I don't even like the fact of calling myself a Christian anymore as it has become stigmatize through all these so called Christian systems. I call myself a blood bought child of the most high God of grace and mercy for that is who I am in Christ Jesus.

Why not just say you're a follower of the way. Aka Jesus. That's what the word Christian means anyway.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Thanks for starting this topic WIP. For me it's less of what I identify as, and more of what I'm accused as being for my beliefs or what I say. Sayning I'm Calvinist, or Armenian or anything else but I don't know what that short discription is suppose to mean to correct them or to tell them their right that is my view.

Recently was reading a intro to theology book that my brother in law gave me and felt like I was arguing with the book as I read it in the beginning. (Parts of the issues got resolved as the book continued on and more explainations came from it). How ever from it there was a new term I hadn't heard about before. A biblicist. It was a term that apparently was a faulty belief by believing solely from the bible instead of also taking in from theology, from church, and from modern life. (Or at least that's what it sounds like the term is for).

Too many Christian labels not just to identify ourselves by, but to also be accused of being as well. What happened to Paul's rebuke to early Christians from calling themselves disciples of Peter or desciples of someone else instead of trusting our teacher Jesus who should be our focus.

 

[Christ_empowered]

ive been thinking on this lately. the established church is crumbling, collapsing. pulled from liberals and conservatives and taken over by anti-commie rhetoric or social justice talk and...and...

? ive prayed to be part of the last day's remnant, and im beginning to think....


well, i dont know of a church in my area that fits the bill. not that they're bad or not that there arent solid, developed and developing Christians in those walls, just...

hey, its anytown, usa. there's such a mean spirited, hateful feeling, all around...

and its in the church, in the church leaders, in the followers...

personally speaking, maybe im better off just reading Scripture and fellowshipping here? that's the thing...outcasts, pariahs, misfits, 'the least of these...'

no longer welcome in many (most?) churches, unless we 'play by the rules' (i don't just mean repent and such...there's a lot more expected of us...)

ugh. oh well. God, Himself...is just a prayer away.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

ive been thinking on this lately. the established church is crumbling, collapsing. pulled from liberals and conservatives and taken over by anti-commie rhetoric or social justice talk and...and...

? ive prayed to be part of the last day's remnant, and im beginning to think....


well, i dont know of a church in my area that fits the bill. not that they're bad or not that there arent solid, developed and developing Christians in those walls, just...

hey, its anytown, usa. there's such a mean spirited, hateful feeling, all around...

and its in the church, in the church leaders, in the followers...

personally speaking, maybe im better off just reading Scripture and fellowshipping here? that's the thing...outcasts, pariahs, misfits, 'the least of these...'

no longer welcome in many (most?) churches, unless we 'play by the rules' (i don't just mean repent and such...there's a lot more expected of us...)

ugh. oh well. God, Himself...is just a prayer away.

Don't give up my friend.

 

[Nathan12]

... Mary was predestined... Judas was predestined...

Christians need to be clear that there is indeed divine election for specific reasons -- BUT NEVER FOR SALVATION.

1. Specific individuals are called to specific ministries all through Scripture, and the latest was Saul the persecutor being called to be Paul the greatest apostle (even though he considered himself the least). This continues to hold true throughout Church history.

2. Israel -- the 12 tribes -- were elected for very specific purposes (eight) as noted in Romans 9, and the ultimate purpose was to bring Messiah to the world. But had election been for salvation every single Jew who has ever lived would have been saved. And since the majority rejected their Messiah, we see that election is never for salvation. That would contradict the Gospel message (John 3:16,17).

3. Those who believe and are justified by grace through faith are elected or predestined for what? To be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30).

4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since the whole world of humanity is guilty before God. Therefore the Gospel invitation is to "whosoever" will believe on the Lord, and call upon the name of the Lord and be saved (Rom 10). But that requires obedience to the Gospel, "and they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16).

 

[dianegcook]

Christians need to be clear that there is indeed divine election for specific reasons -- BUT NEVER FOR SALVATION.

1. Specific individuals are called to specific ministries all through Scripture, and the latest was Saul the persecutor being called to be Paul the greatest apostle (even though he considered himself the least). This continues to hold true throughout Church history.

2. Israel -- the 12 tribes -- were elected for very specific purposes (eight) as noted in Romans 9, and the ultimate purpose was to bring Messiah to the world. But had election been for salvation every single Jew who has ever lived would have been saved. And since the majority rejected their Messiah, we see that election is never for salvation. That would contradict the Gospel message (John 3:16,17).

3. Those who believe and are justified by grace through faith are elected or predestined for what? To be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30).

4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since the whole world of humanity is guilty before God. Therefore the Gospel invitation is to "whosoever" will believe on the Lord, and call upon the name of the Lord and be saved (Rom 10). But that requires obedience to the Gospel, "and they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16).

Amen
Some selected for some specific purposes.
Rom.8:30-33
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called, and whom He called, them HE also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[Redwords lou]

I express Christian because it is what the world seems to associate with how I believe, but I am a bible thumper, holy roller, and any other names some one would like to call me. I won’t take offense to anything I’m labeled as because in the mind of those putting a name to me it is how they associate someone who follow Jesus Christ in the way that I do. Arguing sects is such a self righteous thing. It is what I try to keep in the grave man! Self righteousness . Well I guess that was my 2cents and I’m not even sure if it’s worth a penny

 

[Tessa]

We are told in Hebrews 10;16 that God will pit His laws in our hearts and .minds

We are told in Revelation 2:23 that He will search our hearts and minds.

To me a Christian is a person who loves the Lord and follows Him. Someone who is seeking Him and wanting to obey Him and trying to be as like Him as is humanly possible

Although any Christian can lead another person to the gospel everyone has to come to God themselves seeking truth through prayer and study

I agree with WIP it is totally confusing reading debates and arguments and questions like "Are you a Calvinist?", I have a very simple faith and I want to obey God (even though I often fail) because I love Him whether I am saved or not. But of course I want to be saved too. So I don't know what you would call me, perhaps 'a simplest?