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Doctrine of Predestination

Whatever

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Are people on a Calvinism forum really this uninformed about John Calvin? At least take 15 minutes and read the Wikipedia entry, which is quite good
You do realize that Wikipedia is run by Christian hating Atheists?

If you want to look up biographical information of Christian leaders, you would be better off at Theopedia.
 

Whatever

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Are people on a Calvinism forum really this uninformed about John Calvin? At least take 15 minutes and read the Wikipedia entry, which is quite good
You do realize that Wikipedia is run by Christian hating Atheists?

If you want to look up biographical information of Christian leaders, you would be better off at Theopedia.
 

Whatever

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(As I suggested on another thread this morning, this seemingly pretty awful world may be the one that God in his perfect wisdom saw would nevertheless achieve the maximal good.)
There is a good book that deals with this question of Theodicy, the attempt to justify a good and sovereign God in light of the evil in the world.
WHAT ABOUT EVIL? A DEFENSE OF GOD’S SOVEREIGN GLORY, by Scott Christensen
Published on March 11, 202
576 pages

Throughout history numerous theodicies have been offered. The most common one is the Free-Will Defense, but there is also the Natural-Law Defense, the Greater-Good Theodicy, the Soul-Making Theodicy, the Best-of-All-Possible-Worlds Defense, and the Divine-Judgment Defense.
The theodicy proposed in the book is the Greater-Glory Theodicy.

This model states that God’s ultimate purpose is for his glory and his glory is most highly revealed through Christ’s atonement. Christ’s redemptive work wouldn’t have been necessary without the fall into sin, so the fall is necessary for God’s purposes. This type of position in history has been referred to as felix culpa (i.e. “fortunate fall”). The fall was planned by God so he could bring about redemption. Every great story is about redemption and overcoming catastrophe. We do not expect the hero to defeat the villain by dying, but that’s what Christ does. God’s power and glory is displayed in weakness as well as in power.

Paul seem to be hinting at this:
Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

People are too man (human) centered. They seem to think that God exists to fulfill their wishes.
 

Whatever

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If they find they were predestined with the wicked no matter what they did, won’t be so comforting.
Nobody is predestined (prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22) to be comforted. It is to make Gods power and wrath known. If I in the end find out I was one of them, I will be weeping and gnashing my teeth like all the others, but God will still be glorified.
 

Runner

 
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You do realize that Wikipedia is run by Christian hating Atheists?

If you want to look up biographical information of Christian leaders, you would be better off at Theopedia.
Well, the "Christian-hating Atheists" did an excellent job of summarizing the life of John Calvin, as they do with many religious topics in my experience. I recognize that Wikipedia has biases - their debunking-oriented entries on paranormal phenomena infuriate me - but I believe it is one of the most valuable tools around and I support them financially. The Theopedia entry has a different focus and purpose, but it's certainly OK. The Conservapedia entries are over-the-top lunatic-fringe stuff. Rather humorous that both Theopedia and Conservapedia trade on Wikipedia's name (and Conservapedia slavishly follows the Wikipedia format, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery)!
 

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There is a good book that deals with this question of Theodicy, the attempt to justify a good and sovereign God in light of the evil in the world.
WHAT ABOUT EVIL? A DEFENSE OF GOD’S SOVEREIGN GLORY, by Scott Christensen
Published on March 11, 202
576 pages

Throughout history numerous theodicies have been offered. The most common one is the Free-Will Defense, but there is also the Natural-Law Defense, the Greater-Good Theodicy, the Soul-Making Theodicy, the Best-of-All-Possible-Worlds Defense, and the Divine-Judgment Defense.
The theodicy proposed in the book is the Greater-Glory Theodicy.

This model states that God’s ultimate purpose is for his glory and his glory is most highly revealed through Christ’s atonement. Christ’s redemptive work wouldn’t have been necessary without the fall into sin, so the fall is necessary for God’s purposes. This type of position in history has been referred to as felix culpa (i.e. “fortunate fall”). The fall was planned by God so he could bring about redemption. Every great story is about redemption and overcoming catastrophe. We do not expect the hero to defeat the villain by dying, but that’s what Christ does. God’s power and glory is displayed in weakness as well as in power.

Paul seem to be hinting at this:
Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

People are too man (human) centered. They seem to think that God exists to fulfill their wishes.
I know you mean well, but you keep trying to educate me as though I were some neophyte. I wrote a 100-page seminary thesis on theodicy 49 years ago. I didn't just fall off the theological turnip truck. My Kindle alone has more than 2,000 titles, at least 1,500 of them theology or apologetics. I've read numerous theodicies, including a very thoughtful one by an English scholar who argued that after the Holocaust it's pointless to continue to try to rationalize the Euthyphro dilemma with manmade theodicies. I agree with him that all theodicies are ultimately inadequate. Probably the best answer is God's in the Book of Job: "You ain't gonna understand it, bub. Don't try to figure it out."

Christensen’s approach is described as a combination of the "greater-good theodicy" and the "best of all possible worlds defense" that I alluded to. This is probably as good a theodicy as we're going to get, for those who feel they need one. It still isn't really a connect-all-the-dots rationalization, which I don't think there can ever be.
 

brightfame52

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Nothing like anything close to this in scripture but I know it comforts a number of people. If they find they were predestined with the wicked no matter what they did, won’t be so comforting.
Yes it is. Ive shown you scripture and others. According to this Psalm who turns mens heart to hate other men Ps 105:25

He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
 

Dorothy Mae

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I know you mean well, but you keep trying to educate me as though I were some neophyte. I wrote a 100-page seminary thesis on theodicy 49 years ago. I didn't just fall off the theological turnip truck. My Kindle alone has more than 2,000 titles, at least 1,500 of them theology or apologetics. I've read numerous theodicies, including a very thoughtful one by an English scholar who argued that after the Holocaust it's pointless to continue to try to rationalize the Euthyphro dilemma with manmade theodicies. I agree with him that all theodicies are ultimately inadequate. Probably the best answer is God's in the Book of Job: "You ain't gonna understand it, bub. Don't try to figure it out."

Christensen’s approach is described as a combination of the "greater-good theodicy" and the "best of all possible worlds defense" that I alluded to. This is probably as good a theodicy as we're going to get, for those who feel they need one. It still isn't really a connect-all-the-dots rationalization, which I don't think there can ever be.
There is way to understand God resulting in KNOWING He is morally excellent. But it’s not going to be in trying to find out as He himself said that is beyond us. It’s in knowing Him as He knows Himself to be.
 

Dorothy Mae

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Nobody is predestined (prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22) to be comforted. It is to make Gods power and wrath known. If I in the end find out I was one of them, I will be weeping and gnashing my teeth like all the others, but God will still be glorified.
You misunderstood. The doctrine of predestination for heaven comforts those who believe it. The trade off is they have to accept that the God they worship does moral wrong, but that doesn’t matter to them as they are not going to hell no matter how they behave. That is their comfort.

How do you think God is glorified if it turns out you were predestined for hell?
 

Dorothy Mae

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Yes it is. Ive shown you scripture and others. According to this Psalm who turns mens heart to hate other men Ps 105:25

He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
This is why I say that no Calvinist can come to understand God. They believe his ways include making people hate other people against their will.
 

Dorothy Mae

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Are people on a Calvinism forum really this uninformed about John Calvin? At least take 15 minutes and read the Wikipedia entry, which is quite good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin. By any standard, Calvin was a genius. He did receive legal training, which I can tell you from personal experience will hone your critical-thinking skills like nothing else, but he never worked as a lawyer. He is the single leading figure of the Protestant Reformation and widely considered one of the handful of greatest theologians who have ever lived, and his massive Institutes of the Christian Religion is one of the handful of greatest works in Christian theology. His commentaries on the Bible are still considered among the best in Protestant Christianity.

To attempt to denigrate John Calvin or minimize his importance says more about the person who foolishly attempts it than about John Calvin.

And I say all this as someone who is not a Calvinist.

Just a few points:

1. It's entirely possible, as Calvin did, to construct a coherent Bible-based Calvinist theology. There is nothing goofy or unbiblical about Calvin's theology, unappealing as it may be to you or me. It does require that many verses be ignored or "explained away," but this is true of all systematic theologies.

2. It's entirely possible - obviously - to construct a coherent Bible-based non-Calvinist theology. This requires some "creativity" with the verses on which Calvin relied.

3. You posit an entirely warm-and-fuzzy Jesus who desired that all be saved. (Revelation is not where I personally look for accurate quotations from Jesus, and Calvin never wrote a commentary on it.) The Jesus of the Gospels said things like “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside everything is expressed in parables, so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" - in addition to plenty of other things that don't quite fit the entirely-warm-and-fuzzy model.

4. It seems pretty clear from the world he created that God had no expectation that all or anything like all would be saved. If this were true, one might have expected at least a level playing field, not one in which humans not only have to confront natural evil but are plagued by supernaturally evil forces as well. By the tenets of Christian theology, certainly the large majority of humans who have ever lived have been lost. This can't have been unanticipated by God when he created the world he did, and it can't be any surprise to him now. (As I suggested on another thread this morning, this seemingly pretty awful world may be the one that God in his perfect wisdom saw would nevertheless achieve the maximal good.) Whether we follow Calvinist or Armenian theology, we would have to acknowledge that the net result of a large percentage of souls being lost is entirely consistent with Calvinism.

5. My personal objection to Calvinism is, I believe, the most legitimate one: It turns God's creation and human existence into a pointless cartoon. I would like to believe that God is bigger, better and more creative than that. On the other hand, I am struck by the fact that it really does seem to me that some people (the elect of Calvinism?) have ears to hear and others (the non-elect?) simply don't. Hence, as unappealing as I may find Calvinism, I don't pooh-pooh it or denigrate its founder.
Martin Luther is the single leading figure of the Reformation.
 

Cooper

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Yea.... Calvinism suxs.... Because he did not understand Scripture...

Predestination you bet you scriptures...!!!

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

G4309
προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand
Word study
G4309

προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

Word study
G2820

κληρόω

klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.

Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

The problem you have is.... the wages of Sin... Not Calvin!


Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Now did God tell Adam "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely burn in a fire for

Eternity"?.


No... You will die... Just like countless Christians across time! That penalty is still inforce to this DAY!!!
Jesus died so you could be ressurected... Jesus is the First born from the Dead... the first to be raised to immortality.


2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

It's all about the coming kingdom... and whom has been chosen to rule for 1000 years... Nothing about Heaven or Hell... Come on Runner... read the scriptures with out your Modern world view!

Paul
Everyone is predestined to spend eternity in the presence of God, until they turn away and are disobedient like Adam and Eve.
 

Cooper

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LOL... I will be where God leads me 6 months from now... I have no say!!! Pay Attention!

NASB Pro 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

CEV Pro 16:1 We humans make plans, but the LORD has the final word.

NASB Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

CEV Pro 16:9 We make our own plans, but the LORD decides where we will go.

Do you believe the scriptures above Hawkman??? If not... the next will rock your freewill world!!!

NASB Pro 20:24
Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Net Bible Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?

Pro 20:24
73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").

74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."
sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

NASB Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

CEV Isa 46:10 From the very beginning, I told what would happen long before it took place. I kept my word

Hawkman, Do you think you have a chance in He (double tooth picks) to disrupt the will of God due to your free will???
Paul
We are warned not to backslide.
 

Dorothy Mae

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Everyone is predestined to spend eternity in the presence of God, until they turn away and are disobedient like Adam and Eve.
That’s pretty much saying everyone is predestined by Almighty powerful God to spend Eternity in Heaven unless they reject that predestination.
 

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That’s pretty much saying everyone is predestined by Almighty powerful God to spend Eternity in Heaven unless they reject that predestination.
That is not the way I meant it, sorry. Jesus said, “come unto me and be saved,” meaning we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

Now I ask myself, “what is it that separates us from God?” The answer, of course, is that sin separates us from God, and we know “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” So the call is for everyone, Jews, and Gentiles alike, to come to the Saviour.

To redeem myself from my error, let me say everyone was destined to be present with the Lord before sin entered in, so separating us from God. When it did, God made a way of escape, so that His plan of salvation would be fulfilled by following Him all the days of our life.
.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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That is not the way I meant it, sorry. Jesus said, “come unto me and be saved,” meaning we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

Now I ask myself, “what is it that separates us from God?” The answer, of course, is that sin separates us from God, and we know “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” So the call is for everyone, Jews, and Gentiles alike, to come to the Saviour.

To redeem myself from my error, let me say everyone was destined to be present with the Lord before sin entered in, so separating us from God. When it did, God made a way of escape, so that His plan of salvation would be fulfilled by following Him all the days of our life.
.
Ok, I think you’d better not use “predestined” because that implies not based on your choice but His alone. At least to the Calvinists. Just say He wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.
 

Whatever

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You misunderstood. The doctrine of predestination for heaven comforts those who believe it. The trade off is they have to accept that the God they worship does moral wrong
But no Calvinist believes that God does moral wrong. It is only anti-Calvinists who think the Calvinist view makes God do moral wrong. Whatever God does is just and holy no matter what puny creatures think about it.
 
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