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Does Catholic Church know 'veneration of Saints' was transferred from idol worship?

reddogs

Member
Official saint making, or canonization by the Vatican, did not start until the 11th century, but as early as the 2nd century, the veneration of saints began to be allowed to spread by the pagan converts and came into the church. Basically what Gentile converts were doing was the same thing they had done for centuries before as pagans, and so they picked up Greek pagan doctrines and used it to cover what was being done.
Veneration of the dead is based on the belief that the deceased, often family members, have a continued existence and/or possess the ability to influence the fortune of the living, so you see how the lie spread and grew, especially in the Catholic Church, who venerate saints as intercessors with God.

The Roman Catholic Church, venerate the dead as what they claim are saints who are in Heaven. They are honored through prayers and feast days. Such holidays to honor the dead in Christianity include All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day, and Day of the Dead. The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

So is the Catholic Church aware that its 'veneration of Saints' was transferred from idol worship?
 
Official saint making, or canonization by the Vatican, did not start until the 11th century, but as early as the 2nd century, the veneration of saints began to be allowed to spread by the pagan converts and came into the church. Basically what Gentile converts were doing was the same thing they had done for centuries before as pagans, and so they picked up Greek pagan doctrines and used it to cover what was being done.
Veneration of the dead is based on the belief that the deceased, often family members, have a continued existence and/or possess the ability to influence the fortune of the living, so you see how the lie spread and grew, especially in the Catholic Church, who venerate saints as intercessors with God.

The Roman Catholic Church, venerate the dead as what they claim are saints who are in Heaven. They are honored through prayers and feast days. Such holidays to honor the dead in Christianity include All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day, and Day of the Dead. The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

So is the Catholic Church aware that its 'veneration of Saints' was transferred from idol worship?

Personally I disallow the term, Catholic Church, and avoid affirming it. For there is one church, Mt.16:18, and Catholicism is at best but a pretty large denomination and tradition within it.

As to the etiology of canonization, I think there must be some speculation here, howbeit reasonable: eg Ancient Rome attributed ancestors with mortal influence, as ancient letters/stories tell. But pagan does not mean evil though it means misguided. I am unaware of anything comparable under Sinai.

For all that and calling it a church practice, not a Christian practice, IMO it has pros and cons, an error with some plus points. One pro is remembering heroes and heroines of the faith beyond the NT orb. They can inspire us as missionary stories. A con is that we can too easily skip past our Christian link to the father, and pass the buck of prayer, to our mental images of saints long dead. What would we think of a child who always asked their mum to ask their dad?

I don’t see Sinai’s Dt.18 as an exact match to asking deceased Christians to intercede to God on our behalf. A Catholic riposte is that Protestants who ask mortal saints to intercede for them, should upgrade to asking immortal saints. To my mind the bigger issues are seeing our father’s deep love for us his children through his son, and how we are enjoined to pray directly to our father. “‘On that day,’ Jesus went on, ‘you won’t ask me for anything. I’m telling you the solemn truth: whatever you ask the father in my name, he will give you’” (NTFE: Jhn.16:23).

PS: importantly the KJV has LORD, not Lord (Dt.18:12). Copy/paste drops even Tyndale’s code for God’s name, and tends to Sabellianism.
 
God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
 
Official saint making, or canonization by the Vatican, did not start until the 11th century, but as early as the 2nd century, the veneration of saints began to be allowed to spread by the pagan converts and came into the church. Basically what Gentile converts were doing was the same thing they had done for centuries before as pagans, and so they picked up Greek pagan doctrines and used it to cover what was being done.
Veneration of the dead is based on the belief that the deceased, often family members, have a continued existence and/or possess the ability to influence the fortune of the living, so you see how the lie spread and grew, especially in the Catholic Church, who venerate saints as intercessors with God.

The Roman Catholic Church, venerate the dead as what they claim are saints who are in Heaven. They are honored through prayers and feast days. Such holidays to honor the dead in Christianity include All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day, and Day of the Dead. The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

So is the Catholic Church aware that its 'veneration of Saints' was transferred from idol worship?
Although I don't believe in veneration of saints, nor am I a Roman Catholic, I think you have set up a straw man red herring. Veneration is about honor and respect, not divine worship, which is due only to God. Both Catholics and Orthodox make that clear.

The scriptural support cited for asking other Christians to beseech God for something we want done for the kingdom, was extended to include Christians now in the presence of our LORD:

7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:7-10 NKJ)

As a Protestant I recoil from praying "to the dead" for anything.

It is a fine line I choose not to cross, even though "all in Christ" are not dead, they are alive in Him.

"Saints" cannot add any weight to my request made "in the name of Jesus" because Jesus is all I need to "get the prayer answered." If I ask for things that are "in His Name" (according to God's Will), I will get what I asked for, because my LORD Jesus Christ said I would. Therefore, I don't need saints alive or dead to "get the job done".

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. (Jn. 14:12-14 NKJ)


It is eisegesis to apply this to the dead. In context, its the prayer of living saints that "availeth much":

16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. (Jas. 5:16-18 NKJ)


And the logic of prayer to departed saints is flawed. Everyone covered by the ransom sacrifice of Christ---clothed in His righteousness, get equal hearing before God. No saint "dead or alive" changes that.
 
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Official saint making, or canonization by the Vatican, did not start until the 11th century, but as early as the 2nd century, the veneration of saints began to be allowed to spread by the pagan converts and came into the church. Basically what Gentile converts were doing was the same thing they had done for centuries before as pagans, and so they picked up Greek pagan doctrines and used it to cover what was being done.
Veneration of the dead is based on the belief that the deceased, often family members, have a continued existence and/or possess the ability to influence the fortune of the living, so you see how the lie spread and grew, especially in the Catholic Church, who venerate saints as intercessors with God.

The Roman Catholic Church, venerate the dead as what they claim are saints who are in Heaven. They are honored through prayers and feast days. Such holidays to honor the dead in Christianity include All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day, and Day of the Dead. The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

So is the Catholic Church aware that its 'veneration of Saints' was transferred from idol worship?
The very early church buried the martyrs and venerated them even John the Baptist, Stephen etc.
 
Although I don't believe in veneration of saints, nor am I a Roman Catholic, I think you have set up a straw man red herring. Veneration is about honor and respect, not divine worship, which is due only to God. Both Catholics and Orthodox make that clear.

The scriptural support cited for asking other Christians to beseech God for something we want done for the kingdom, was extended to include Christians now in the presence of our LORD:

7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:7-10 NKJ)

As a Protestant I recoil from praying "to the dead" for anything.

It is a fine line I choose not to cross, even though "all in Christ" are not dead, they are alive in Him.

"Saints" cannot add any weight to my request made "in the name of Jesus" because Jesus is all I need to "get the prayer answered." If I ask for things that are "in His Name" (according to God's Will), I will get what I asked for, because my LORD Jesus Christ said I would. Therefore, I don't need saints alive or dead to "get the job done".

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. (Jn. 14:12-14 NKJ)


It is eisegesis to apply this to the dead. In context, its the prayer of living saints that "availeth much":

16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. (Jas. 5:16-18 NKJ)


And the logic of prayer to departed saints is flawed. Everyone covered by the ransom sacrifice of Christ---clothed in His righteousness, get equal hearing before God. No saint "dead or alive" changes that.
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Saints ain’t dead

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Saints alive!
 
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Saints ain’t dead

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Saints alive!
None of those texts imply we can have a conversation with them. It follows they know about their loved ones, and pray for them. It does not follow we can ask them to pray for us, they are "departed" and with the LORD.
 
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Saints ain’t dead

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Saints alive!

Although I disallow your Bible version—for Jas.5:16 it’s [sins], not [faults]; its archaism is not in the spirit of Scripture; [man] is umbilical ageism (cf. NJB; NABRE; NRSV)—I agree that God is over a living Abraham, etc: that, as you put it, [all] saints [are] alive. Glorious as that is—and it is—it falls short of authorising petition to them, though it neither precludes veneration of God’s holy people (hagioi) even while we are mortal, nor asking us (mortal or immortal) to join us in petition—a prayer circle. It only falls short of Scripture if we as Christians don’t directly and primarily ask our father as well: in petition all saints are nonessential addons.
 
None of those texts imply we can have a conversation with them. It follows they know about their loved ones, and pray for them. It does not follow we can ask them to pray for us, they are "departed" and with the LORD.
Supernatural spiritual knowledge is one of the gifts of the spirit!

And the angels are also involved!
Heb 1:14
 
Although I disallow your Bible version—for Jas.5:16 it’s [sins], not [faults]; its archaism is not in the spirit of Scripture; [man] is umbilical ageism (cf. NJB; NABRE; NRSV)—I agree that God is over a living Abraham, etc: that, as you put it, [all] saints [are] alive. Glorious as that is—and it is—it falls short of authorising petition to them, though it neither precludes veneration of God’s holy people (hagioi) even while we are mortal, nor asking us (mortal or immortal) to join us in petition—a prayer circle. It only falls short of Scripture if we as Christians don’t directly and primarily ask our father as well: in petition all saints are nonessential addons.
That’s your Protestant version

James 5:16

King James Version
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Catholic version


James 5:16

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

 
That’s your Protestant version. KJV
Catholic version: Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.​


The KJV? Ah yes, I’d sussed that before I wrote😉 But please, the KJV is not my tipple, and with C S Lewis I would discount the label, Protestant. I am a mere Christian, and Orthodoxism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, whatever, are but denominations/movements, networks within the one church: each has pros and cons.

A good Bible version for Jas.5:16 should avoid the sageism, [man], and the singular, [a]. Hence the NCB, like the DRA, remains subpar, the NJB less so, whereas the NABRE ticks the boxes. [Faults] is the faulty Majority Text, not the ancient uncials. Both Vulgate & Wycliffe were right, as was Rheims (1582).

Saying [Catholic version] is as much a caricature as saying [Protestant Version]: there are numerous versions within both those traditions, and some collaborative ones as well.
 
The KJV? Ah yes, I’d sussed that before I wrote😉 But please, the KJV is not my tipple, and with C S Lewis I would discount the label, Protestant. I am a mere Christian, and Orthodoxism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, whatever, are but denominations/movements, networks within the one church: each has pros and cons.

A good Bible version for Jas.5:16 should avoid the sageism, [man], and the singular, [a]. Hence the NCB, like the DRA, remains subpar, the NJB less so, whereas the NABRE ticks the boxes. [Faults] is the faulty Majority Text, not the ancient uncials. Both Vulgate & Wycliffe were right, as was Rheims (1582).

Saying [Catholic version] is as much a caricature as saying [Protestant Version]: there are numerous versions within both those traditions, and some collaborative ones as well.
Cool beans
 
That’s your Protestant version

James 5:16​

King James Version​

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Catholic version

James 5:16​

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition​

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.​

Confess to ONE OTHER. not to some special person like a Catholic "priest". confess to, say, an average joe Christian!

Funny how they switch "effectual fervent" for "continual" in the cathode version.
EFFECTUAL is synonymous with "effective". FERVENT is synonymous with PASSIONATE.

Sincerity and effectiveness of prayers of Godly men "availeth much". Not merely repeating prayers over and over like the Cathode version asserts. The enemy is subtle!

READ MATTHEW 6:7.
Cathode "Bible" found LACKING, SUPERIOR BIBLE WITHSTANDS SCRUTINY.


All false beliefs wither and die. Cathodeism withers and dies. Therefore Cathodeism is a false belief.
 
Confess to ONE OTHER. not to some special person like a Catholic "priest". confess to, say, an average joe Christian!

Funny how they switch "effectual fervent" for "continual" in the cathode version.
EFFECTUAL is synonymous with "effective". FERVENT is synonymous with PASSIONATE.

Sincerity and effectiveness of prayers of Godly men "availeth much". Not merely repeating prayers over and over like the Cathode version asserts. The enemy is subtle!

READ MATTHEW 6:7.
Cathode "Bible" found LACKING, SUPERIOR BIBLE WITHSTANDS SCRUTINY.


All false beliefs wither and die. Cathodeism withers and dies. Therefore Cathodeism is a false belief.

Jas.5.16 (Vulgate): deprecatio…adsidua = prayer…constant, followed by John Wycliffe (contynuel preyer), but corrected by Erasmus/Tyndale. Rheims kept [continual], possibly for political reasons combined with respect for Jerome, but NABRE/NCB/NJB have adjusted to the Greek, putting right an ancient error of Jerome. The DRA is somewhat outdated, and like the KJV fails to show the church at its best.

In The Word’s Gone Global (Hakes 2017), the NABRE/NCB/NJB respectively are ranked 11/24/J4, respectful positions. I suspect that [Cathode] sheds more heat than light. However, if you wish to have a debate on English Bible versions as such, how about beginning a new thread?
 
But there is no evidence im aware of that physically dead people can pray for anyone.
Catholicism is necromancy + idolatry, (among other sins), disguised as Christianity. BEWARE.
Idolatry is forbidden
Images are not

Saints are not dead

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
 
Confess to ONE OTHER. not to some special person like a Catholic "priest". confess to, say, an average joe Christian!

Funny how they switch "effectual fervent" for "continual" in the cathode version.
EFFECTUAL is synonymous with "effective". FERVENT is synonymous with PASSIONATE.

Sincerity and effectiveness of prayers of Godly men "availeth much". Not merely repeating prayers over and over like the Cathode version asserts. The enemy is subtle!

READ MATTHEW 6:7.
Cathode "Bible" found LACKING, SUPERIOR BIBLE WITHSTANDS SCRUTINY.


All false beliefs wither and die. Cathodeism withers and dies. Therefore Cathodeism is a false belief.
Jn 20:21-23
 
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