Does Genesis 3:4 refute Eternal Security?

[YosefHayim]

What are your thoughts?

Eternal Security (Also known as OSAS or Perseverance of the saints) states that God preserves and keeps the believer sealed to life everlasting. It states that it is impossible for the believer to lose their salvation.

Conditional Security teaches that one can lose their salvation and must work to maintain their salvation.

Here is the claim by Conditional Security believers.

God said if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die (2:16,17).

3:4 - Satan said if Eve ate, she would not die. She ate and we know the result. This event is used in 2 Cor. 11:3 as an example to us of the danger of falling into sin.

Satan was the first one to teach the doctrine of "impossibility of apostasy." God stated the consequence of sin, but Satan denied that the consequence would follow. Today God has stated the consequences of sin, and Satan uses preachers to deny the consequences. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was originated and first preached by Satan himself.
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Here is the counter-claim by the Eternal Security believer.

Screenshots
http://postimg.org/image/lnnbez7s9/959d7ad3/
http://postimg.org/image/qdvhttxqr/8aa4fca6/
http://postimg.org/image/h3ppsncf3/abd65d10/
Google Books
http://is.gd/gen34vseternalsecurity

 

[jasonc]

that is a stretch to say that satan does that. im not an oaser. perserverance of the saints would mean that those that believe that teach sin all you want and not be worried per that comment. they don't teach that at all.

the puritans were Calvinists and they slew witches and didn't celebrate Christmas nor Halloween.

 

[Jesse]

NOSAS does not teach you have to work for your salvation or work to keep it.

Jesus taught us about Apostasy, how then could he teach it doesn't exist?

I agree with Jason, the OP is searching for straws that don't exist.

 

[YosefHayim]

NOSAS does not teach you have to work for your salvation or work to keep it.

Jesus taught us about Apostasy, how then could he teach it doesn't exist?

I agree with Jason, the OP is searching for straws that don't exist.

How does a NOSASer lose their salvation?

that is a stretch to say that satan does that. im not an oaser. perserverance of the saints would mean that those that believe that teach sin all you want and not be worried per that comment. they don't teach that at all.

the puritans were Calvinists and they slew witches and didn't celebrate Christmas nor Halloween.

This Genesis 3:4 refutation is a claim by Evangelical Outreach, Gospelway.com, and many other Anti-Osas advocates.

 

[jasonc]

I don't often go by commentaries alone unless its something that I must.

that to me is something that I have never heard of. I noticed those are all online. this cant be new. doesn't mean that it isn't, just not heard by me on the outside of the internet.most churches teach osas. I attend one that doesn't

 

[Jesse]

How does a NOSASer lose their salvation?
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There are 2 other threads on the same topic, so no offense but I've presented my arguments in those threads.

 

[jeff77]

We just had another thread on OSAS vs. non-OSAS and it went south pretty quick. Since this is The Lounge this should not turn into a serious debate. Is this even possible with this topic?

 

[jasonc]

We just had another thread on OSAS vs. non-OSAS and it went south pretty quick. Since this is The Lounge this should not turn into a serious debate. Is this even possible with this topic?

probably not.

 

[jeff77]

There are 2 other threads on the same topic, so no offense but I've presented my arguments in those threads.

Yes, the other one got bumped over to the second page since it hasn't been commented on and newer threads show on the first page.

 

[YosefHayim]

Yes, the other one got bumped over to the second page since it hasn't been commented on and newer threads show on the first page.

To be honest, this one really choked me as a person holding to ES. One of the biggest things that moved me away from psychedelics (psyche- soul delic-manifesting) drugs, which are Pharmakeia (sorceries) in the New Testament, was Genesis 3. They hold the lie of Genesis 3:4 - Psychedelics will bring you to the realization that you are a god, you can't be harmed or die from them, and you will be enlightened. 3 parallels. This also runs through every false religion. Reincarnation is resurrection of the flesh, while Christianity is resurrection of the soul. Satan's lie is rebirth into the flesh. Evolution is all about knowledge, and becoming more advanced, all the way to the transhumanist immortality quest. Satan recycles his deception.

But the other thing is that this holds only one vague point. Satan said they wouldn't die as God said. Those who are born once die twice. This is where satan's deception aims. Those who are born twice die once. This is where it can't aim.

 

[jeff77]

YosefHayim that is a definitely a stretch to say that Satan started the OSAS doctrine in the garden of eden. I'm non-OSAS, but I don't think most OSASer's see the doctrine as an excuse to sin. To tell you the truth I don't think it matters which one a person believes. If they are focused on having a relationship with Christ and following Him it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[jeff77]

To be honest, this one really choked me as a person holding to ES. One of the biggest things that moved me away from psychedelics (psyche- soul delic-manifesting) drugs, which are Pharmakeia (sorceries) in the New Testament, was Genesis 3. They hold the lie of Genesis 3:4 - Psychedelics will bring you to the realization that you are a god, you can't be harmed or die from them, and you will be enlightened. 3 parallels. This also runs through every false religion. Reincarnation is resurrection of the flesh, while Christianity is resurrection of the soul. Satan's lie is rebirth into the flesh. Evolution is all about knowledge, and becoming more advanced, all the way to the transhumanist immortality quest. Satan recycles his deception.

But the other thing is that this holds only one vague point. Satan said they wouldn't die as God said. Those who are born once die twice. This is where satan's deception aims. Those who are born twice die once. This is where it can't aim.

I was a user and saw it as being idolatry. I was a Christian the whole time I was an addict, but my actions showed that drugs were what I put my faith in. I am not sure if this was the case with you and psychedelics. That sounds a little different.

 

[Malachi]

Satan was the first one to teach the doctrine of "impossibility of apostasy." God stated the consequence of sin, but Satan denied that the consequence would follow. Today God has stated the consequences of sin, and Satan uses preachers to deny the consequences. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was originated and first preached by Satan himself.

This is almost too ludicrous to even comment on. I trust you are just relaying someone's false idea. To even bring this passage into the discussion of OSAS makes no sense whatsoever. The last statement is somewhat blasphemous, in that salvation is a gift of God's grace, and it is the gift of eternal life.

 

[YosefHayim]

I was a user and saw it as being idolatry. I was a Christian the whole time I was an addict, but my actions showed that drugs were what I put my faith in. I am not sure if this was the case with you and psychedelics. That sounds a little different.

I did them as a Christian as well. My friend was an athiest at the time. We smoked weed together. This was when I had a closeted faith. I did them merely to see and feel some cool stuff. Then I found LSA (precursor to LSD). https://www.erowid.org/plants/hbw/hbw.shtml

Then I introduced them to my friend, who introduced me to weed. He did many other drugs (from shrooms to opium). He said this was more profound than other psychedelics. Which is ironic because LSA though described as mild LSD and MDMA mix, is considered a weaker one. But after doing them many times, my friend and I did them. It felt like we were on another plane of existence, despite everything was clear. The eerie part was when I felt like I knew what was up with him. And knew that he knew was up. I was like "nah, just high". We get back, and to my surprise it was him that said "what just happened? That was spiritual!". That's when I realized there was something spiritual to drugs. The story is longer, but I tried to keep it short. After other events, and fasting, and just beginning to read the scriptures is when I learned about "Pharmakeia". Timothy Leary started the League of Spiritual Discovery and wanted to make LSD a legal holy sacrament. You know what else he said?

That's when I put two and two together about the whole psychonaut culture, psychedelic spirituality, and biblical prophecy. Also the way drugs changed with the music, and many other things that I won't bother to get into.

But then after that I was still smoking weed, when finally I had a panic attack, and agreed with God that weed was a spiritually deceptive psychedelic substance as well. I know it was illegal for just a small percentage of time, but it's widespread use in these times of an increasingly godless society says a lot. Revelation says there would be pharmakeia in the end time. I think that most likely addresses both the New Age culture and Drugs. They do go hand in hand. Look at the David Icke reptilian dude. New Ager. He did DMT. DMT is considered the "spirit molecule". Many claim that people would "forsake Christianity if they did DMT". 1 Timothy 4:1

 

[YosefHayim]

I was a user and saw it as being idolatry. I was a Christian the whole time I was an addict, but my actions showed that drugs were what I put my faith in. I am not sure if this was the case with you and psychedelics. That sounds a little different.

Here's something I found interesting. I've heard similar testimonies.
http://spectralintelligencesolutions.com/demon_possession_facts.html

This is the most obvious clue when someone's been invaded so to speak. You see it in the eyes, the mirrors of the soul. It can happen in a millisecond. The pupils will dilate as if the victim has taken hallucinogens.
Common Traits of Demonic Possession:

Please be aware: some of these symptoms are associated with victims of ritual abuse, schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder & Post Traumatic Stress Disorders, and many other mental illnesses. Many issues such as self injury or sudden changes in temperamant may also be linked to adverse reactions to medications. You will have to use discernment and educate yourself regarding these mental health issues and familiarize yourself with the history of the victim you are investigating.​