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Dorothy Mae

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So what I gather is that all those who teach the Doctrines of Grace are teaching a false doctrine.
The likes of Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Newton, Warfield, Lloyd Jones, Macarthur, Sproul and the like.

The men of God are preaching a false doctrine? Is that correct?

I understand that this is not on topic, but I have to ask.

Grace and peace to you.
What is this Doctrine of Grace?
 

Dorothy Mae

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Oh come on now, you know, those crazy Calvinists. I prefer doctrines of grace as they were taught before Calvin (see the Bible).
I haven’t read or heard all the teachings of all those men so how can I comment? Please provide the particulars.
 

Dorothy Mae

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Oh come on now, you know, those crazy Calvinists. I prefer doctrines of grace as they were taught before Calvin (see the Bible).
But if any of them taught that God unjustly chooses some for hell, they were wrong in that point. If they taught that God gives man no freedom to choose Him and call that, the worst manipulation in the world, “grace” they were wrong and ignorant of what grace is. Doesn’t mean they were wrong in everything.
 

electedbyhim

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I haven’t read or heard all the teachings of all those men so how can I comment? Please provide the particulars.
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
 

Dorothy Mae

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Ah, you meant essentially TULIP. Why is that called “grace?” It’s all pretty horrible. All people are the worst moral creatures on earth. You have no choice as to your eternal destiny but are prisoners of Gods arbitrarily unjust will. Jesus only died for a few selected lucky ones. If so selected, you are a manipulated robot and are forced to do his will in being saved (although not forced to do anything else that would do the world some good.) Once “in,” you can behave as you want to others cause what you do and say to them makes no difference, you’ve got your ticket to Heaven. Horror piled upon horror.


Btw, none of the provided scriptures support that theology. And there are scriptures that clearly show none of that was in the thinking of God through the author.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It might be that in order to believe no man can ever be curious about God out of a natural desire to know the truth, one has to be blind to what is actually in the heart of oneself. Now of course people deceive themselves at times or some people all the time. But there are some who want he truth, this includes the supernatural.

It’s a common refuge to tell yourself that no man ever knows your heart, particularly when deceiving yourself as to what your heart is.

But if you think about it, we make very important decisions based on believing we know the heart, to some degree, of others. When you don’t trust a salesman, it because you perceive his heart isn’t honest. When you trust someone else, it’s because you perceive their heart and they are honest. Now you might be wrong, but you might be right. And when you’re right, you knew their heart to some degree.

We watch movies where characters are portrayed such that we are actually meant to know their hearts whereas the other characters don’t. We see the good man falsely accused or the bad man falsely believed. We don’t wonder how we can possibly know their hearts but accept that we do.

As a man thinks, so is he. Out of the heart he man speaks…and we can know his heart too when he does.
 

Niblo

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Ah, you meant essentially TULIP. Why is that called “grace?” It’s all pretty horrible. All people are the worst moral creatures on earth. You have no choice as to your eternal destiny but are prisoners of Gods arbitrarily unjust will. Jesus only died for a few selected lucky ones. If so selected, you are a manipulated robot and are forced to do his will in being saved (although not forced to do anything else that would do the world some good.) Once “in,” you can behave as you want to others cause what you do and say to them makes no difference, you’ve got your ticket to Heaven. Horror piled upon horror.


Btw, none of the provided scriptures support that theology. And there are scriptures that clearly show none of that was in the thinking of God through the author.
Yes!
 

Niblo

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It might be that in order to believe no man can ever be curious about God out of a natural desire to know the truth, one has to be blind to what is actually in the heart of oneself. Now of course people deceive themselves at times or some people all the time. But there are some who want he truth, this includes the supernatural.

It’s a common refuge to tell yourself that no man ever knows your heart, particularly when deceiving yourself as to what your heart is.

But if you think about it, we make very important decisions based on believing we know the heart, to some degree, of others. When you don’t trust a salesman, it because you perceive his heart isn’t honest. When you trust someone else, it’s because you perceive their heart and they are honest. Now you might be wrong, but you might be right. And when you’re right, you knew their heart to some degree.

We watch movies where characters are portrayed such that we are actually meant to know their hearts whereas the other characters don’t. We see the good man falsely accused or the bad man falsely believed. We don’t wonder how we can possibly know their hearts but accept that we do.

As a man thinks, so is he. Out of the heart he man speaks…and we can know his heart too when he does.
And yes!
 

electedbyhim

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Ah, you meant essentially TULIP. Why is that called “grace?” It’s all pretty horrible. All people are the worst moral creatures on earth. You have no choice as to your eternal destiny but are prisoners of Gods arbitrarily unjust will. Jesus only died for a few selected lucky ones. If so selected, you are a manipulated robot and are forced to do his will in being saved (although not forced to do anything else that would do the world some good.) Once “in,” you can behave as you want to others cause what you do and say to them makes no difference, you’ve got your ticket to Heaven. Horror piled upon horror.


Btw, none of the provided scriptures support that theology. And there are scriptures that clearly show none of that was in the thinking of God through the author.
So you are saying that those theologians and preachers that I listed are wrong in their theology?
 

Dorothy Mae

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So you are saying that those theologians and preachers that I listed are wrong in their theology?
No, I don’t know their personal theology and cannot address them individually. People in that branch of christianity differ one from another.
 

jasonc

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No, I don’t know their personal theology and cannot address them individually. People in that branch of christianity differ one from another.
As do Arminian baptists .some ordain women ,some don't .

I attended a Baptist church that doesn't but we'll in ga where I was every church on a block and cemetery .I was within a mile of three churches .both having cemeteries.


This one a Baptist church ,irc a freewill and that area has a few and also reformed Baptist .this one was less then 30 minutes from where I stayed.

So yes in arminism there is that silly differences over things,not that the reformed don't do that .the pca,pcua,eco,arp .
 

electedbyhim

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No, I don’t know their personal theology and cannot address them individually. People in that branch of christianity differ one from another.
But they teach the doctrines of grace and by what you have said, they are not taught in Scripture.

For the record, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, these doctrines are taught in Scripture. The Bible has taught these doctrines way before Calvin did.

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).


For anyone to deny these doctrines is to deny God and His word.

People can argue until they are blue in the face, it does not change the fact that they are in the Bible.

These great men of God have been overly blessed in their ministries for teaching these truths and being faithful to Scripture.

Grace and peace to you.
 

jasonc

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The synod of dort ,not the man Calvin,list the five points and the ecfs and didache which is oldest list of doctrine we have found doesn't mention that .

Calvin himself didn't buy into limited atonement .that is from my reformed pastor who is a full five pointer .it's not a hill to die on for him or my brother who is very freewill.

A caged Calvinist my pastor isn't ,nor would I be one myself if I chose to be one.my church the arp ,being the oldest reformed church in America doesn't require you be a Calvinist .only accept the 5 solas to be a member .

I joined and the pastor knows I'm not reformed .I don't push my views on the church .
 

Whatever

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Jesus didn’t think so as he says God so loved the WORLD. He thought that worth saying. Does that also make no sense to you?
That makes sense because it is not talking about people. Kosmos means the whole creation. God's love for the whole creation is why He sent His Son so that all the believing ones shall not perish, but if you understand the rest of the NT, saving the believers, also redeems the whole creation.
Maybe you think being called means you have no choice in responding and are like manipulated from within robots.
There you go again with your little imagination. Men manipulate robots. The omniscient God can work in a person
Many are called, but few are chosen because few choose.
Classic free willer's answer. God is not allowed to do the choosing. Glorious man must be the captain of his own destiny.

Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? . . . .

Do you disagree that humans are God's own?
What does that have to do with the discussion? We weren’t discussing Israel.
We were discussing election, who God chooses. Paul is answering the question of Romans 9:6
New Living Translation
6
Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!

Paul's answering the question of why are so many Jews are now being lost now that the Messiah has come? His answer is election, not free will.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills (thelo G2309), nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

thelo (G2309), "to will, to wish," implying volition and purpose, frequently a determination

But go ahead and willfully dismiss this. It doesn't fit your free thelo view.
 

Dorothy Mae

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But they teach the doctrines of grace and by what you have said, they are not taught in Scripture.

For the record, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, these doctrines are taught in Scripture. The Bible has taught these doctrines way before Calvin did.

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).


For anyone to deny these doctrines is to deny God and His word.

People can argue until they are blue in the face, it does not change the fact that they are in the Bible.

These great men of God have been overly blessed in their ministries for teaching these truths and being faithful to Scripture.

Grace and peace to you.
It is not fair to discuss the views of third parties when they are not a part of the discussion to explain and defend themselves. I cannot do that to my distinguished brethren. It’s not fair. You and I can discuss our views but it’s not right that we discuss someone else. General policies are different, but the names of our brethren ought not to be accused in absence. Please let’s not do to them what we wouldn’t like done to us. They were in our camp.
 

Whatever

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,being the oldest reformed church in America doesn't require you be a Calvinist .only accept the 5 solas to be a member .
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church which holds to the Westminster standards, doesn't require you to even hold to them to be a member not even to receive communion. Only if you are going to be a deacon, elder, teacher of pastor.
 

electedbyhim

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It is not fair to discuss the views of third parties when they are not a part of the discussion to explain and defend themselves. I cannot do that to my distinguished brethren. It’s not fair. You and I can discuss our views but it’s not right that we discuss someone else. General policies are different, but the names of our brethren ought not to be accused in absence. Please let’s not do to them what we wouldn’t like done to us. They were in our camp.
Their well known published works are all over the internet. They made it very well known in their books that they published as well as their sermons that they preached.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. I do not agree.

The apostle Paul is not here but we discuss and quote his theology given by God Himself.

Grace and peace to you.
 

rogerg

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For anyone to deny these doctrines is to deny God and His word.

People can argue until they are blue in the face, it does not change the fact that they are in the Bible.

electedbyhim
you will not be able to debate into believing those who do not already recognize Christ as Saviour. This
is because that awareness is only given spiritually by God with one's understanding following from that. It is not/cannot be acquired through intellectual means.
It comes down to that those who don't believe/trust in Christ alone as Saviour in all ways, have not been taken from under law and are therefore still blinded by and subject to law. To them, what you are saying about grace is heresy because as they would state it, a person just can't be saved without first initiating or contributing to it in some manner on their own - they feel they must do something, not knowing that for those who receive it, it was completely as a free gift from an exceedingly gracious God - that is salvation's secret which they are unable to see - but God only reveals that secret to those whom He has saved. So, I would suggest that while trying to convince those under law with debate and logic, keep in mind that unfortunately it is probably doomed to failure.
 
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