End Of Days Hysteria: Does It Reflect Well On Our Witness?

[JLB]

Cyrus' decree signalled the end of the Babylonian Captivity. By contrast, Artaxerxes' decree was the start of a 70 Weeks period until the beginning of Christ's ministry.

No sir.

Cyrus command begin the 70 weeks.

 

[JLB]

Subtracting 70 years of captivity would yield 490 years, which is the same number as 70 Weeks would result in.

Exactly.

The genealogy refers to the birth of Christ.

Messiah the Prince is different.

That’s why there is a pause or gap that must be taking into account.

 

[JLB]

69 Weeks, or 483 years, prior to the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry in 26 AD yields 457 BC, which is the precise date of Artaxerxes' decree.

scripture please. Chapter and verse.

 

[RandyK]

scripture please. Chapter and verse.

You already know what Scriptures we're dealing with. The 70 Weeks Prophecy.

 

[RandyK]

No sir.

Cyrus command begin the 70 weeks.

I understand you disagree, and that's okay. You've heard why I disagree with that. 70 Weeks of years from Cyrus' decree would not give us the beginning of Christ's ministry, nor even his birth year. It would be over 40 years too early.

But I partly agree with you, that Cyrus' decree was pivotal in this. However, Cyrus' decree was actually carried out by future kings. And to me the important one was Artaxerxes, because following his decree the rebuilding of Jerusalem was actually carried out.

And it was from the date of his decree in 457 BC that we arrive at the 70th Week in 26 AD, the very year Jesus may have begun his earthly ministry. This is when his covenant with Israel was sealed. And it was 3.5 years later that the Roman leadership "confirmed" this covenant by having him crucified.

 

[JLB]

scripture please. Chapter and verse.

You know good and well there is no scripture to back up your claim about…
69 Weeks, or 483 years, prior to the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry in 26 AD yields 457 BC, which is the precise date of Artaxerxes' decree.

 

[JLB]

I understand you disagree, and that's okay. You've heard why I disagree with that. 70 Weeks of years from Cyrus' decree would not give us the beginning of Christ's ministry, nor even his birth year. It would be over 40 years too early.

But I partly agree with you, that Cyrus' decree was pivotal in this. However, Cyrus' decree was actually carried out by future kings. And to me the important one was Artaxerxes, because following his decree the rebuilding of Jerusalem was actually carried out.

And it was from the date of his decree in 457 BC that we arrive at the 70th Week in 26 AD, the very year Jesus may have begun his earthly ministry. This is when his covenant with Israel was sealed. And it was 3.5 years later that the Roman leadership "confirmed" this covenant by having him crucified.

You refuse to address the truth of the actual prophecy, referring to this and that.

But I partly agree with you, that Cyrus' decree was pivotal in this. However, Cyrus' decree was actually carried out by future kings. And to me the important one was Artaxerxes,

The prophecy began with Cyrus.

The work ceased and therefore the prophetic timeline paused, until the next world ruler which was Artexerses continued the work with his decree.


Then the first 69 weeks end with Messiah the Prince.


The 70th week begins when the final world ruler (antichrist) confirms a covenant with many for one week.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Whatever happens in the near future-be it the end or another psyop to implement digital id, it is going to be a major societal shift to where the masses are more like hamsters feeding on subscriptions to exist. I fully expect to be living in the woods in the next 5 years.

Too soon. Now I can't say what's happening in Canada, but I will be here in five years still working my job, still posting my studies, still hearing about the slow and gradual changes society is making in the direction of a globalist New World Order. But one thing (among others in this thread) that you need to understand is that they adopted the principles of Fabianism, and they are more interested in the gradual but foolproof than they are bringing things to an end tomorrow. Too many risks involved in rushing things, especially the risk that humanity will turn to the Lord Jesus Christ to escape their oppressors, because the power of God is the one thing they cannot overcome. So they must seduce and deceive humanity into willing submission first. All of them, and completely, until they WANT to be ruled over, subjugated, used and thrown away, and thank the Satanists for doing it to them when they do.

We are nowhere near there yet. Too many still hold out hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, are of their own mind, and still have freewill in society to choose Him if they so desire.

 

[RandyK]

You refuse to address the truth of the actual prophecy, referring to this and that.




The prophecy began with Cyrus.

The work ceased and therefore the prophetic timeline paused, until the next world ruler which was Artexerses continued the work with his decree.


Then the first 69 weeks end with Messiah the Prince.


The 70th week begins when the final world ruler (antichrist) confirms a covenant with many for one week.

You're hardened in your position. That's fine. If my arguments aren't worthy to you, I'm fine with that. Claiming a "timeline paused" is a claim, but not an argument.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You already know what Scriptures we're dealing with. The 70 Weeks Prophecy.

You know good and well there is no scripture to back up your claim about…

Peaceable please. Good thread. Agree to disagree if necessary,

 

[RandyK]

Too soon. Now I can't say what's happening in Canada, but I will be here in five years still working my job, still posting my studies, still hearing about the slow and gradual changes society is making in the direction of a globalist New World Order. But one thing (among others in this thread) that you need to understand is that they adopted the principles of Fabianism, and they are more interested in the gradual but foolproof than they are bringing things to an end tomorrow. Too many risks involved in rushing things, especially the risk that humanity will turn to the Lord Jesus Christ to escape their oppressors, because the power of God is the one thing they cannot overcome. So they must seduce and deceive humanity into willing submission first. All of them, and completely, until they WANT to be ruled over, subjugated, used and thrown away, and thank the Satanists for doing it to them when they do.

We are nowhere near there yet. Too many still hold out hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, are of their own mind, and still have freewill in society to choose Him if they so desire.

I agree. The big danger is in subscribing to hysteria, and no longer thinking along with the Lord and His revelation. We need to be guided. Thinking that all may be lost any day does not encourage planning or even sound thinking.

I personally dislike the Any-Minute Rapture thing, or Imminency Doctrine. I mean, Christ has been near to coming since his 1st Coming. And that's because his 1st Coming made it possible for all mankind since then to make themselves ready for judgment, for Eternal Life.

But his Soon Coming is not Imminency Doctrine, or the idea that he could come today. That inspires resignation, or relinquishing the gifts we have now and the ministry we have now to be witnessing to the world. There are still prophecies to be fulfilled, and lives to be lived for God's glory and purpose.

We should take each day by asking God to guide us and to lead us in sound thinking--not hysteria. There have been many antichrists in history. The Church has weathered all of them.

Satan cannot defeat God's Kingdom. We have assurance of Eternal Life if we embraced Christ as our Way, Truth, and Life. Indeed, there is time to grow and to realize our full potential, as well as the call to which we've responded. It's for man to make plans, and for God to make the steps.

Prov 16.9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.

Prov 19.21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.

 

[RandyK]

You know good and well there is no scripture to back up your claim about…
69 Weeks, or 483 years, prior to the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry in 26 AD yields 457 BC, which is the precise date of Artaxerxes' decree.

I'm just saying that Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy is the Scripture passage I use to justify 69 Weeks have passed, and now the 70th Week is in view when Christ is cut off, the Covenant is confirmed, and the sacrifices terminated. When viewed this way, from a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, we have from Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC to 26 AD the beginning of Christ's ministry, when he is cut off, completes his covenant, and terminates animal sacrifice. And the period is 483 years.

If this disagreement stops being an explanation as to what we believe and more of an accusation, I'm done. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter, and you are welcome to share your opinion, equally.

 

[RandyK]

Peaceable please. Good thread. Agree to disagree if necessary,

I am completely at peace on this. I have not an ounce of hostility towards my brother. Discussing differences does not make me less than "peaceable." Getting hostile does make me "unpeaceable." ;) I am not hostile towards this brother, and am happy to stop discussing our issue if he is unhappy with the way I'm treating it.

 

[JLB]

You're hardened in your position. That's fine. If my arguments aren't worthy to you, I'm fine with that. Claiming a "timeline paused" is a claim, but not an argument.

If we stay with the scripture itself it shows us that the Prophecy has run to the year 70 AD and yet the 70th week has not yet begun.

I'm just saying that Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy is the Scripture passage I use to justify 69 Weeks have passed, and now the 70th Week is in view when Christ is cut off

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27


Now we see the temple has been rebuilt with sacrifice and offerings being made during the 70th week, in which the prince who is to come puts an end to them in the middle of the 70th week.


These are the truths that can not be ignored.


Paul says it this way -

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


Revelation shows there will be another temple before the coming of the Lord.
This Temple is associated with the key timeframe of three and a half years which correlates to Daniel’s “middle of the week”.


Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:1-3

 

[RandyK]

If we stay with the scripture itself it shows us that the Prophecy has run to the year 70 AD and yet the 70th week has not yet begun.

The Prophecy runs *70 Weeks*--not 69 Weeks. It is after the 70 Weeks, in which Christ is killed and the covenant sealed, that the Desolation of Jerusalem takes place in 70 AD. It is, I believe, asssumed that it is during the Week in which the covenant of God is confirmed with Israel, that the Messiah ministers and dies. And that would be the 70th Week.

You are here saying that the Prophecy takes us through 69 Weeks and then *skips over* the 70th Week ending at the 70 AD Desolation of Jerusalem. And I do understand your argument. But as I've been saying, the way I read it, and the way the Church Fathers largely read it, it is the complete set of 70 Weeks that run their course, leading to the death of Christ.

I've gone to pains to explore this with Miami Ted. All of the Church Fathers are focused on using the 70 Weeks Prophecy to show that by the 70th Week Christ is supposed to appear and be slain. They do this to prove that Jesus is that Messiah! They do *not* do this to prove there is a division between the 69th and 70th Week, nor to prove that the 70th Week is future, following the Desolation of Jerusalem.

This line of thinking must be superimposed upon the Scripture passage to come up with this notion. Without this unnatural assusmption, that the 70 Weeks period is not contiguous, the arguments the Church Fathers made no sense. Even worse, the idea of a 70 Weeks period as a timeline ceases to have any validity. It certainly disallows any countdown to the end of the age!

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

I don't think so. Story-telling is not always geometric or linear. Dual statements, prolepses, flashbacks, etc. reflect common ways of expressing things. Jesus told multiple stories undergirding the same truths, but told in different ways for greater efficacy.

So to establish the direction this Prophecy was headed, we are told the city of Jerusalem and the Temple are headed for desolation. This is told *before* preliminary details are given.

Is this order legitimate? Of course! It is told this way in newspapers all the time! Extra extra read all about it. Major earthquake in California. This is the headline. And then follows details leading up to that earthquake, perhaps peace and tranquility in the region and business as usual. This is in reverse order, but still normal and typical of reporting.

So, Jerusalem and the Temple are to be destroyed. But first, the 70th Week Confirmation of the Covenant, which takes place in the midst of the 70th Week, terminating sacrifice and offering under the Law. These things happen in the 70th Week *before* the destruction of the Temple, and before the army of the ruler to come arrives to accomplish this 40 years later.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27


Now we see the temple has been rebuilt with sacrifice and offerings being made during the 70th week, in which the prince who is to come puts an end to them in the middle of the 70th week.

No, we see nothing about a Temple being "rebuilt." No word about building or rebuilding--just the army of the ruler to come desolating the temple and Jerusalem with their abominable pagan troops.

In all of the examples of the Tabernacle or Temple being built or rebuilt in Scriptures, the Prophets go to great lengths to describe it. But there is nothing in Dan 9 about rebuilding the Temple, except in the 1st 7 Weeks of the 70 Weeks period. At the end of this period, *after* the Messiah has been cut off in the midst of the 70th Week, the Temple is destroyed again, and never said to be rebuilt.

These are the truths that can not be ignored.


Paul says it this way -

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Since Jesus said the Temple in Jerusalem was to be destroyed by the Roman Army in his generation, I think Paul was aware that this Temple would not be the one Antichrist would sit in. Therefore, I think Paul was talking about the position of the Man of Sin in claiming a throne in heaven. After all, the Temple on earth was no throne room.

Revelation shows there will be another temple before the coming of the Lord.
This Temple is associated with the key timeframe of three and a half years which correlates to Daniel’s “middle of the week”.


Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:1-3

As Ezekiel's Temple was allegorical, or symbolic, so the Temple John measured was allegorical or symbolic. In fact, much of Revelation utilizes OT symbols to convey NT truths that are "heavenly truths."

Again, I mean no hostility in our difference of opinion. I would just vigorously challenge points you've made that do not pass muster with me.

 

[JLB]

The Prophecy runs *70 Weeks*--not 69 Weeks.

Exactly.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

Do you see the 70th week mentioned in this verse?

 

[JLB]

You are here saying that the Prophecy takes us through 69 Weeks and then *skips over* the 70th Week

Not at all.

Here is what I plainly said…

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26


Do you acknowledge that the prophetic timeline has come to the year 70 AD in this verse?

Please answer.

 

[RandyK]

Not at all.

Here is what I plainly said…

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26


Do you acknowledge that the prophetic timeline has come to the year 70 AD in this verse?

Please answer.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

The 70 Weeks Period is designed to lead to the 6 things Messiah would do, as indicated in Dan 9.24. But after the 7 Weeks of Temple rebuilding, and after the 62 Weeks of Temple activity, Messiah would come in the 70th Week, and be cut off, not obtaining in his own life what others expected in this regard. He would be killed.

"After the 62 Weeks" suggests the 70th Week has arrived because the complete period is 70 Weeks and following the 69 Weeks suggests the cutting off of Messiah takes place in the following Week. This is more fully explained in the very next verse.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’

This "one seven" is the 70th Week. What we have is a dualism. In each verse the same thing is said, though in the 2nd instance more information is provided.

1) After the 69 Weeks, then Messiah is cut off.
2) After the 69 Weeks, a covenant is confirmed for the final Week, then sacrifice and offering are terminated.

"After the 69 Weeks" = the 70th and Covenant Week. Both verse 26 and verse 27 say the same thing.

 

[RandyK]

Exactly.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

Do you see the 70th week mentioned in this verse?

It is implied because "after the 62 Weeks" implies we're in the 70th Week--we are talking about 70 consecutive Weeks. So, after the 69 Weeks we're in the 70th Week.

Not only is this implied but we are then told in the very next verse that a covenant in confirmed for "one Week." That has to be the 70th Week. Though we are told in advance that the 70 Weeks period is leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the people of the ruler to come, this is preliminary information to indicate the direction this 70 Weeks period is headed.

As I said before, mention of the devastation of Jerusalem and the Temple upfront, even before mentioning the termination of a covenant for one Week, is preliminary to indicate a direction the cutting off of Messiah is heading towards. It is not fixing each statement in a chronological order as if each bit of information must come in a chronological, lineal sequence.

The cutting off of Messiah, and the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings, all lead to the devastation of Jerusalem and the Temple, described as the "abomination of desolation" in verse 27.

 

[JLB]

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

The 70 Weeks Period is designed to lead to the 6 things Messiah would do, as indicated in Dan 9.24. But after the 7 Weeks of Temple rebuilding, and after the 62 Weeks of Temple activity, Messiah would come in the 70th Week, and be cut off, not obtaining in his own life what others expected in this regard. He would be killed.

"After the 62 Weeks" suggests the 70th Week has arrived because the complete period is 70 Weeks and following the 69 Weeks suggests the cutting off of Messiah takes place in the following Week. This is more fully explained in the very next verse.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’

This "one seven" is the 70th Week. What we have is a dualism. In each verse the same thing is said, though in the 2nd instance more information is provided.

1) After the 69 Weeks, then Messiah is cut off.
2) After the 69 Weeks, a covenant is confirmed for the final Week, then sacrifice and offering are terminated.

"After the 69 Weeks" = the 70th and Covenant Week. Both verse 26 and verse 27 say the same thing.

Bro you keep talking in circles and you never answer my question.



At this point in the prophetic timeline the temple has been destroyed, and the 70th week has not yet begun.

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26

Question:

Do you acknowledge that the prophetic timeline has come to the year 70 AD in this verse 26?