End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Hope of glory]

Deborah (reply to post 355)

Yes.
Concerning the word "see" as in Math.24:30
3 John:11 "....he that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not "seen" (known or understood) God.
"see" is the same Greek word in both)

Concerning "coming in the clouds" as in Math.24:30
Dan.7:13 "....one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came TO the Ancient of Days (a vision of Christ's exaltation and enthronement)
Isa.19:1 "...the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt..." (prophetic
language depicting judgment)

The phrase "coming in the clouds" has a twofold meaning in the context of Math.24 (it speaks of judgment and Jesus' exaltation)

Here is the understanding of Math.24:30

"And then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven....
The "sign" was the destruction of the temple itself. (this was a sign from heaven)

...and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn...
This refers to all 12 tribes who were scattered among all the nations of the earth ( consider acts 2:5 " and there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven")

....and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

This speaks of the Jews "seeing" (perceiving and understanding) that Jesus had in fact been exalted to Gods right hand and that he had "come" upon them in judgment as King and Judge.

In Math.24:30 Jesus was telling his disciples that those witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem, would also by that very event see (perceive and understand) his vindication and exaltation as Israels rightful King.

Also look at Math.26:64. Jesus spoke basically the same words to Ciaphas, he was quoting ps110:1 and Daniel 7:13. Obviously Jesus was not telling Ciaphas that he would be alive to see his second coming. He was telling Ciaphas that he was both King and High Priest, something that Caiphas would soon understand.

I hope I have helped, blessings

Hope of glory

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (response to post 363)

Why do you "gap" Daniels prophecy of 490 years?
Was there a gap in the 70 prophecy of exile?
Why don't you believe Jesus' words that the AOD was seen in "that generation"?
Where is antichrist in Dan.9?
Where is a rebuilt temple?
Where is the "making" or "breaking" of a covenant?
Where is your "7 year tribulation" anywhere in scripture?

Delete comment

 

[reba]

2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussing these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity. This includes Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine which are only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.

 

[Eugene]

This thread is reopened - Thanks all. :waving

 

[Hope of glory]

Thank you Eugene

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks for reopening this thread.

I have been reading John Gill's commentary today on Matthew 24. So to the historical view of this chapter and related scripture such as Daniel 9 has been made clear to me. Gill agreed with what has been said on this thread as I have understood it, anyway.

If anyone that is of a 70 AD interpretation has read Gill's view, which is the historical view during the reformation and do not agree please post your view. He interprets, if I understood him correctly, all of Matt. 24 as relating to the 70 AD destruction.

 

[Hope of glory]

1. Jesus' second coming already took place in 70ad and full preterism is correct. This is obviously false, since we have no glorified body and Jesus (the man) is not on earth.

Jesus second coming certainly did not take place in 70 AD.

2. When Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" he was not making reference to his second coming. This is obviously the truth. I have already thoroughly shown by scripture that the "coming in the clouds" was a combination of OT scripture references such as Dan.7:13 Isa.19:1 Ezek.3:30 Joel 2:1-2 which Jesus used to warn his disciples of the coming judgment and to explain that Jerusalem's destruction
meant his vindication as rightful King of
Israel.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be
shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

The great tribulation is a direct result of the Abomination of Desolation.

This event takes place after the events of 70 AD.

Therefore Matthew 24:29-31 refers to The Second Coming of Jesus and not the events of
70 AD.

as it is written -

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

This happens in 70 AD!

The events of verse 27 happen after 70 AD.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


JLB[/QUOTE


JLB can you answer these 2 questions please.

Matt.24:15 Jesus speaks of the AOD and in Matt.24:30 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spokenin the same discourse.
In Matt.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both the AOD and his coming in the clouds.
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

Luke 21:20-22 Jesus speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" includes both the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming in the clouds. Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Sincerely,
Hope of glory

 

[Hope of glory]

Thanks for reopening this thread.

I have been reading John Gill's commentary today on Matthew 24. So to the historical view of this chapter and related scripture such as Daniel 9 has been made clear to me. Gill agreed with what has been said on this thread as I have understood it, anyway.

If anyone that is of a 70 AD interpretation has read Gill's view, which is the historical view during the reformation and do not agree please post your view. He interprets, if I understood him correctly, all of Matt. 24 as relating to the 70 AD destruction.

AMEN Deborah13, I rejoice with you my sister. May the Lord fill your mind with the revelation of gospel of the Kingdom!
We are his "kingdom come"!

 

[JLB]

1. Jesus' second coming already took place in 70ad and full preterism is correct. This is obviously false, since we have no glorified body and Jesus (the man) is not on earth.

Jesus second coming certainly did not take place in 70 AD.

2. When Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" he was not making reference to his second coming. This is obviously the truth. I have already thoroughly shown by scripture that the "coming in the clouds" was a combination of OT scripture references such as Dan.7:13 Isa.19:1 Ezek.3:30 Joel 2:1-2 which Jesus used to warn his disciples of the coming judgment and to explain that Jerusalem's destruction
meant his vindication as rightful King of
Israel.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be
shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

The great tribulation is a direct result of the Abomination of Desolation.

This event takes place after the events of 70 AD.

Therefore Matthew 24:29-31 refers to The Second Coming of Jesus and not the events of
70 AD.

as it is written -

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

This happens in 70 AD!

The events of verse 27 happen after 70 AD.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


JLB[/QUOTE


JLB can you answer these 2 questions please.

Matt.24:15 Jesus speaks of the AOD and in Matt.24:30 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spokenin the same discourse.
In Matt.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both the AOD and his coming in the clouds.
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

Luke 21:20-22 Jesus speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" includes both the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming in the clouds. Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Sincerely,
Hope of glory

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

The great tribulation is the direct result of the The Abomination of Desolation.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27

Here are some basic facts that is revealed in Daniel 9:26-27

• The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. 70 AD
  

• The events of verse 27 take place during the 70 th week.

• The 70th week comes after the 69th week?

From these scriptures we see that -


The AOD occurs sometime after the events of 70 AD. Yes or No

The scriptures establish irrefutable facts.

These scriptures will not go away.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

Good grief, doesn't this grow old?

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

 

[Hope of glory]

Jesus second coming certainly did not take place in 70 AD.


29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be
shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

The great tribulation is a direct result of the Abomination of Desolation.


This event takes place after the events of 70 AD.

Therefore Matthew 24:29-31 refers to The Second Coming of Jesus and not the events of
70 AD.

as it is written -

26
After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

This happens in 70 AD!

The events of verse 27 happen after 70 AD.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the
middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


JLB[/QUOTE


JLB can you answer these 2 questions please.

Matt.24:15 Jesus speaks of the AOD and in Matt.24:30 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spokenin the same discourse.
In Matt.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both the AOD and his coming in the clouds.

Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

Luke 21:20-22 Jesus speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and
therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" includes both the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming in the clouds. Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Sincerely,

Hope of glory

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

The great tribulation is the direct result of the The Abomination of Desolation.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the
middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27
Here are some basic facts that is revealed in Daniel 9:26-27

• The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. 70 AD
  

• The events of verse 27 take place during the 70 th week.

• The 70th week comes after the 69th week?

From these scriptures we see that -

The AOD occurs sometime after the events of 70 AD. Yes or No

The scriptures establish irrefutable facts.
These scriptures will not go away.

JLB

JLB the answers to my 2 questions answer your questions. If you will not answer me, that's fine, my argument is solid. The burden will be upon you to prove me wrong.

Matt.24:15 Jesus speaks of the AOD and in Matt.24:30 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spokenin the same discourse.
In Matt.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both the AOD and his coming in the clouds.
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

The answer is yes of course.

Luke 21:20-22 Jesus speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" includes both the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming in the clouds. Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

The answer is yes of course.

If the answer is "yes" in Matthews account (which all futurists say it is), then of necessity the answer is "yes" in Lukes account also. If you say that the answer is "no" in Luke, than you must also answer "no" in Mathews account also. But of course you would never say this. The best you can do is just avoid answering these questions. But that's ok. The answers are obvious, and my doctrine is true, and Jesus' words have been validated.

By this simple reasoning, I have proved that "this generation" in Math.24:34 was referring to Jesus' contemporary generation. I have proved that the phrase "coming in the clouds" in Math.24:30 was not referring Jesus' second coming. I have proved that the destruction of Jerusalem, the appearing of the AOD, and Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven were a fulfilled before Jesus' contemporary generation passed away, just as Jesus prophesied.

I have proved everything I have said, the burden is upon you to prove the words of our Lord Jesus wrong.

 

[JLB]

JLB the answers to my 2 questions answer your questions. If you will not answer me, that's fine, my argument is solid. The burden will be upon you to prove me wrong.

Your problem is, you don't have an argument.

The words of Jesus Christ are true.

The AOD happens after the events of 70 AD, that is what Jesus directed us to UNDERSTAND in Daniel.

That takes the "argument" out of the discussion.

That is why every time I have asked you to please study Daniel with me, you have to distract this question by wanting to "refer" back to some post that supposedly I didn't answer.

All Preterist have the same problem with Daniel.

Once you discover that the AOD occurs after the destruction of the temple, then it becomes clear that the AOD or the whole Olivet discourse are a discussion about a time period well after 70 AD.

The Olivet Discourse is about the Generation in the time period just before Jesus returns at the end of the age.

The end of the age was not in 70 AD. The Coming of the Son of Man was not in 70 AD. The tribulation was not in 70 AD.

The AOD was certainly not in 70 AD.

You refuse to look at Daniel to discover this.

You refuse to see that the abomination of Desolation is after 70 AD, as Daniel portrays for us.

The proof is in Daniel.

That why Jesus said - Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation', spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand.

Jesus was describing the events that took place before He was to come in the clouds with power and great glory and gather his people together to Himself in the resurrection, at the end of the age.

JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Good grief, doesn't this grow old?

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

It absolutely does Eugene, it has grown very old. Maybe since you think it's so old, you can be the one to answer my 2 questions in post 371. What I have asked JLB to answer, I ask all "futurists". Since knowone else will, Im really hoping you can answer these questions Eugene so we can end this thread.

Thank you my friend.

 

[JLB]

Good grief, doesn't this grow old?

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

It absolutely does Eugene, it has grown very old. Maybe since you think it's so old, you can be the one to answer my 2 questions in post 371. What I have asked JLB to answer, I ask all "futurists". Since knowone else will, Im really hoping you can answer these questions Eugene so we can end this thread.

Thank you my friend.

As I posted before,

If you want to ask me a question I will answer. But ask just one question at a time and then be agreeable to answer mine.

If that is agreeable the ask away.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Good grief, doesn't this grow old?

It absolutely does Eugene, it has grown very old. Maybe since you think it's so old, you can be the one to answer my 2 questions in post 371. What I have asked JLB to answer, I ask all "futurists". Since knowone else will, Im really hoping you can answer these questions Eugene so we can end this thread.
Thank you my friend.

As I posted before,

If you want to ask me a question I will answer. But ask just one question at a time and then be agreeable to answer mine.

If that is agreeable the ask away.


JLB

In Math.24:15 when Jesus said "YOU therefore shall see the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...." he was of course speaking to his disciples.

Question: In Math.24:15 did Jesus tell his disciples of the 1st century whom he was speaking to, that THEY would see the AOD standing in the holy place? Yes or no

 

[Eugene]

The two questions by Hope of glory have been answered. This thread is ended by request of the author and closed.​

Good grief, doesn't this grow old?

JLB please answer these questions. I have been patiently waiting for your response. Please do not ignore these questions. If you will not answer them then just plainly tell me so I can stop asking.

Save your breath.

You have not waited for me to answer anything as I have answered you questions and your requests to go back to this post and that post.

If you answer truthfully my questions, them I will answer yours.

It absolutely does Eugene, it has grown very old. Maybe since you think it's so old, you can be the one to answer my 2 questions in post 371. What I have asked JLB to answer, I ask all "futurists". Since knowone else will, Im really hoping you can answer these questions Eugene so we can end this thread.

Thank you my friend.

It absolutely does Eugene, it has grown very old. Maybe since you think it's so old, you can be the one to answer my 2 questions in post 371. What I have asked JLB to answer, I ask all "futurists". Since no one else will, I'm really hoping you can answer these questions Eugene so we can end this thread.

Thank you my friend.

Matt.24:15 Jesus speaks of the AOD and in Matt.24:30 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse.
In Matt.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both the AOD and his coming in the clouds.
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

YES.​

Luke 21:20-22 Jesus speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 he speaks of his coming in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" includes both the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' coming in the clouds. Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.
Is this a true statement? Yes or no

YES​

The two questions by Hope of glory have been answered. This thread is ended by request of the author and closed.