Ephesians 1:4:Chosen before the foundation of the world?

[guibox]

Many of our OSAS brethren base their foundation on this verse saying that Christ chose us to be saved. But is that what this verse is really saying?

God's plan of redemption and His plan for the redeemed are not accidental. They were conceived before creation, before time began. God formed a purpose in His mind: to choose us in Christ.

Even before we existed, God saw us through a relationship with Christ, and because of that He could make us His children. hece, we are not saved by anything we are or do. We did not influence God; we could not work our way to God. In fact, when we were not in existence, He already purposed our salvation, so that when we came around, all we would need to do is accept what Christ offers.

God prepared beforehand the plan of salvatio, according to His eternal purpose, in order that everyone would be saed. The plan of salvation itself, which included every human being was determined before the world began. What was NOT determined beforehand was what our individual responses to that plan would be.

That God knows beforehand our eternal destiny is not the same as saying He prdetermined that destiny. Salvation has been offered to us because of what Christ has done for us, a plan worked out for us even before we were created.

 

[farley]

guibox,

Thank you very, very, much for the above post.

FINALLY, an interpretation of predestination that does NOT conflict with the rest of Scripture.

Not to mention that it makes sense to my small brain!

Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(5) he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(6) to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Your interpretation clarifies verse 5 also,"...he predestined us for adoption...". Now, predestination makes sense!!!

It's too bad AV hung it up...he could really profit from your above post.

Thanks again!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Drew]

That God knows beforehand our eternal destiny is not the same as saying He prdetermined that destiny

I struggled with the seeming inconsistency of foreknowledge and fore-ordaining. In the end, as the result of reading some rather technical philosophical arguments, I have become convinced that God can indeed foreknow without fore-ordaining.

 

[Heidi]

guibox,

Thank you very, very, much for the above post.

FINALLY, an interpretation of predestination that does NOT conflict with the rest of Scripture.

Not to mention that it makes sense to my small brain!

Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(5) he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(6) to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Your interpretation clarifies verse 5 also,"...he predestined us for adoption...". Now, predestination makes sense!!!

It's too bad AV hung it up...he could really profit from your above post.

Thanks again!!!

In Christ,

farley

So what do you think the bible means when it says that we were chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless...?" Do you think God was wrong in whom he chose? Or do you think we were not chosen beforew the creation of the world...? Which is it?

"What do you think Jesus means by; "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws Him?" To whom do you give credit for your faith, yourself or God? :o

 

[Merry Menagerie]

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?

 

[Heidi]

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?

Good post, Merry. Those who think they found God by their own superior intelligence and wisdom, are exalting themselves and Jesus tells them they will be humbled. Also, Paul tells us that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But apparently, there are still many people who still like to boast about their ability to believe.

 

[farley]

Heidi,

I regret that you don’t share my views on predestination.

It is not that I think that I have all of the answers, because I am freely admitting to everyone, here and now, that I do not. However, when I see obvious conflicts between one passage of scripture and another, I know that further study is necessary.

I do know that the Scriptures tell us to, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.†2Timothy 2:15. This is all that I’m attempting to do.

Heidi, you are one of the most prolific posters on this forum. I am sure that none of my comments will ever sway your opinion one whit. Yet, I fully intend to continue on this journey of mine, seeking the Truth, and sharing it when I find it.

guibox's post itself answers some of your questions, lets parse them out.

Heidi asked…

So what do you think the bible means when it says that we were chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless...?"

From guibox…

The plan of salvation itself, which included every human being was determined before the world began. What was NOT determined beforehand was what our individual responses to that plan would be.

Heidi asked…

Do you think God was wrong in whom he chose?

My response to this question is…â€Âof course NOT. God is never wrong!â€Â

Heidi asked…

Or do you think we were not chosen beforew the creation of the world...? Which is it?

From guibox…

The plan of salvation itself, which included every human being was determined before the world began.

Heidi asked…

"What do you think Jesus means by; "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws Him?"

Your above quote helps further clarify guibox’s comment quoted below…

Salvation has been offered to us because of what Christ has done for us, a plan worked out for us even before we were created.

Heidi asked…

To whom do you give credit for your faith, yourself or God?

And, Heidi...

Philippians 2:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

...explains why I believe that each of us has a role to play in our own salvation.

In my view, we are saved by grace, through faith. God’s grace, our faith.

Merry...man's free will is the only reason why I think one man will be saved while another man will not be saved.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Heidi]

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no. Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do. I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

 

[SputnikBoy]

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no. Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do. I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

While farley can and does do a good enough job of answering his own posts, I feel that he's already given you a perfectly adequate response, Heidi. He's humble enough to say that he's searching for the scriptural truths that you continually claim to have attained already. Don't be too shocked if you find that you still have a lot to learn also. Ditto Merry Menag.

 

[Vic C.]

That God knows beforehand our eternal destiny is not the same as saying He prdetermined that destiny. Salvation has been offered to us because of what Christ has done for us, a plan worked out for us even before we were created.

Aah, finally the difference between predestination and predetermination. 8-)

Israel's "destiny" was predetermined. Our "destiny" was simply known by God before the Foundation of the world. This is how I understand it. I could be wrong. :-?

 

[Heidi]

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no. Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do. I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

While farley can and does do a good enough job of answering his own posts, I feel that he's already given you a perfectly adequate response, Heidi. He's humble enough to say that he's searching for the scriptural truths that you continually claim to have attained already. Don't be too shocked if you find that you still have a lot to learn also. Ditto Merry Menag.

Of course I have a lot to learn. But why do you attack me if my interpretations don't contradict the bible? Is that not something we should desire? Do you thinkt it would be better for me if my interpretations contradicted scripture? Or would you simply attack me either way? :-?

 

[farley]

Heidi,

You stated, then asked…

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no.

No.

You asked…

Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do.

No. Does your above question imply that you are holding the Holy Spirit responsible for those who have no faith, little faith, and/or false faith? A simple yes or no will suffice!

You stated, then asked…

I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

You definitely SHOULD know what Paul says if you are going to reference his inspired teachings, but I fear that you don’t.

Paul clearly states, in more than one place, that “grace†is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The passage above uses the words “it†and “giftâ€Â, singular, not ‘they’ and ‘gifts’ as it would have to be if the meaning involved multiple gifts, such as grace ‘and’ faith. Please see the references below…

Ephesians 3:7 KJV
(7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Please NOTE, â€Â…the gift of the grace of God…â€Â. A singular gift! Of what? GRACE!!!

Acts 11:17 KJV
(17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Here it is obvious that the “giftâ€Â, singular, has to mean 'grace' only. It was given to those who already had ‘faith’ and were using it properly, because they “…believed on the Lord Jesus Christ…â€Â!!!

You asked of SputnikBoy…

But why do you attack me if my interpretations don't contradict the bible?

Please see my comments above, and below, regarding your interpretations of the Bible!!!

I know that I'm not the first here to conflict with your views, and I am sorry to have to point this out to you, but, in my opinion, most of your comments that I have ran across, and there are many, are full of interpretations whose true meanings have been twisted away from the truth.

In Christ,

farley

 

[SputnikBoy]

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no. Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do. I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

While farley can and does do a good enough job of answering his own posts, I feel that he's already given you a perfectly adequate response, Heidi. He's humble enough to say that he's searching for the scriptural truths that you continually claim to have attained already. Don't be too shocked if you find that you still have a lot to learn also. Ditto Merry Menag.

Of course I have a lot to learn. But why do you attack me if my interpretations don't contradict the bible? Is that not something we should desire? Do you thinkt it would be better for me if my interpretations contradicted scripture? Or would you simply attack me either way? :-?

What's with you touchy people? First Scott, now you, Heidi. I didn't attack you at all. I simply pointed out what might be a pertinent fact.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Again I ask.....

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?


Can ANY of you answer my questions please? A yes or no answer will suffice

 

[SputnikBoy]

Again I ask.....

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?


Can ANY of you answer my questions please? A yes or no answer will suffice

I made my own choice to do so ...Jesus didn't do it for me. Does that answer your question?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

No it doesn't - it seems you didn't answer my questions. Please answer my questions.

 

[cj]

Were you saved by your own merit?


Can ANY of you answer my questions please? A yes or no answer will suffice

I made my own choice to do so ...Jesus didn't do it for me. Does that answer your question?

All your answer does is make God a liar.


And we know He isn't,... therefore, in reality all it does is make you a liar.

But I have no interest in calling you a liar so I will say that your answer simply exposes you lack of scriptural understanding.



Man is a tripartite being, spirit/soul/body,...... all of man to one extent or another became deadened to God in the fall.

This means all of the three tripartite aspects of man, spirit/soul/body, became deadened to God. And if so, and scriptures tell us it is so, then how can that which is deadened to God ever come to make..... "my own choice to do so" regarding believing in God.

A dead man cannot believe because LIFE must be present first.

Believing in God comes out of life, not out of death.

And God is the source of this LIFE.




This is the truth regarding man's salvation,...... God, knowing the heart of each man towards Him, works in both an inward way, shining so brightly in the inward parts of a man that He might break through the deadness of this man, and in an outward way, by causing the situations and circumstances of this man's practical life to turn this man inward that he might see the bright shining of God through his deadness. This man, although having no way of following his heart which is for God, as he is turned inward (towards God) by his outward situations and circumstances, will see this bright shining of God and respond by simply believing God is.

And it is in this moment of believing that God is, that this man is instantly saved and spontaneously regenerated in his spirit, through God Himself coming to dwell in his spirit and one with his spirit.

Nevermore will this man be without God, and he will not suffer eternal damnation.




You know, it is a very hard thing for us to believe that God could allow some men to be born although He knew they would have no way of being saved as their heart was never for God.

But consider this.... If upon arrival before God you were to ask Him about this matter of some being created but never being able to be saved, and He answered you by showing how your salvation was only possible through His allowing these men to be born,...... would you still argue the point,.... or would you simply give thanks and trust that in His wisdom He knows all things?


See saints, God is not that interested in us coming to know why He does what He does,.... first and foremost He just needs us to trust Him in what He does.

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.


Faith is a wonderful thing,.... a thing that is designed to kill us and then bring us into a new creation.


Allow me one more spoken thought...... Although we can know for sure that there will be some men who won't be saved, we have no idea who these men are and must therefore treat all men as if they are chosen by God to be saved.


Isn't it wonderfuly that God is working this out for us, cause really, who among us can know that some won't be saved and yet treat all as if they will be saved?

None. Only God can do this in and through us.

To His eternally glory.

Do you know that all men, saved and unsaved, will be to God's eternal glory.

Who is man to question how God has declared He will get His glory?


In love,
cj

 

[Novice]

A tesseract!

 

[guibox]

Nevermore will this man be without God, and he will not suffer eternal damnation.

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.

Allow me one more spoken thought...... Although we can know for sure that there will be some men who won't be saved, we have no idea who these men are and must therefore treat all men as if they are chosen by God to be saved.j

If man was made to die and merely flit out of existence and only a select few would be chosen to live, your view might be somewhat acceptable. However, when you throw in the fact that God created an eternal burning hell specifically to punish sinners and then created man only to choose them to go in, your 'god' is not a god of love or mercy but a vindictive, cruel and unfair God.

So your view (if it is true) shows what a fallacy the traditional view of hell is in it's own right, nevermind connected to such an unfair, false doctrine as predestination.

I fail to see how you can say I am a liar by observing the law and my views on the Sabbath are 'from the pits of hell' as you say, but you can make God choose to create man to simply burn him in eternity with no chance to choose him.

Okay....:roll:

 

[SputnikBoy]

Were you saved by your own merit?


Can ANY of you answer my questions please? A yes or no answer will suffice

I made my own choice to do so ...Jesus didn't do it for me. Does that answer your question?

All your answer does is make God a liar.


And we know He isn't,... therefore, in reality all it does is make you a liar.

But I have no interest in calling you a liar so I will say that your answer simply exposes you lack of scriptural understanding.



Man is a tripartite being, spirit/soul/body,...... all of man to one extent or another became deadened to God in the fall.

This means all of the three tripartite aspects of man, spirit/soul/body, became deadened to God. And if so, and scriptures tell us it is so, then how can that which is deadened to God ever come to make..... "my own choice to do so" regarding believing in God.

A dead man cannot believe because LIFE must be present first.

Believing in God comes out of life, not out of death.

And God is the source of this LIFE.




This is the truth regarding man's salvation,...... God, knowing the heart of each man towards Him, works in both an inward way, shining so brightly in the inward parts of a man that He might break through the deadness of this man, and in an outward way, by causing the situations and circumstances of this man's practical life to turn this man inward that he might see the bright shining of God through his deadness. This man, although having no way of following his heart which is for God, as he is turned inward (towards God) by his outward situations and circumstances, will see this bright shining of God and respond by simply believing God is.

And it is in this moment of believing that God is, that this man is instantly saved and spontaneously regenerated in his spirit, through God Himself coming to dwell in his spirit and one with his spirit.

Nevermore will this man be without God, and he will not suffer eternal damnation.




You know, it is a very hard thing for us to believe that God could allow some men to be born although He knew they would have no way of being saved as their heart was never for God.

But consider this.... If upon arrival before God you were to ask Him about this matter of some being created but never being able to be saved, and He answered you by showing how your salvation was only possible through His allowing these men to be born,...... would you still argue the point,.... or would you simply give thanks and trust that in His wisdom He knows all things?


See saints, God is not that interested in us coming to know why He does what He does,.... first and foremost He just needs us to trust Him in what He does.

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.


Faith is a wonderful thing,.... a thing that is designed to kill us and then bring us into a new creation.


Allow me one more spoken thought...... Although we can know for sure that there will be some men who won't be saved, we have no idea who these men are and must therefore treat all men as if they are chosen by God to be saved.


Isn't it wonderfuly that God is working this out for us, cause really, who among us can know that some won't be saved and yet treat all as if they will be saved?

None. Only God can do this in and through us.

To His eternally glory.

Do you know that all men, saved and unsaved, will be to God's eternal glory.

Who is man to question how God has declared He will get His glory?


In love,
cj

Wow! I got all of that for saying that I chose to accept Jesus? :smt087