[__ Science __ ] Evidence for Mosaic Authorship of the Torah

[AIG.com]

Scholars who reject the Mosaic authorship of the Torah are as unwilling as the Jewish leaders (John 5:39–40) in not wanting to listen to the words of Jesus on this subject.

Continue reading...

 

[jaybo]

Most authorities believe that the Torah was written by a number of people over a period of time. Scholars give each of the authors of Torah a name: the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Priestly writers, and the Deuteronomist. The Yahwist was characterized by using the Tetragrammaton ("Yahweh") as the name of God. The Elohist writers, who called God "Elohim", were Israelite priests.

BTW, why do you keep plugging your own research, Simon, as though it is the truth instead of your opinion?

 

[jaybo]

Scholars who reject the Mosaic authorship of the Torah are as unwilling as the Jewish leaders (John 5:39–40) in not wanting to listen to the words of Jesus on this subject.

Continue reading...

Also, the quote from John's Gospel is about Jesus criticizing the Jews about "the Scriptures" (plural), not just Torah.

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

If you were in the academic arena your research would be rejected as faulty, inaccurate and incomplete.

 

[jaybo]

Here is a site that clearly explains why you're wrong, Simon: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-who-wrote-the-torah-1.5318582

Here is the first part of the article...
Even a cursory read of the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, shows that the Torah could not have been written by a single person – because of differences in style, language and contradiction in the texts, among other things. Scholars studying the bible in Germany during the 18th and 19th centuries concluded that it was a composite work by editors tying together earlier texts written by very different authors.

This conclusion is based on four characteristics recurring in the Torah. (1) The language used in different sections differs widely. (2) Varying ideology. (3) Contradictions in the narrative. (4) The text is strangely repetitive in part, for no obvious reason, indicating that two versions of a single story were included.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Most authorities believe that the Torah was written by a number of people over a period of time. Scholars give each of the authors of Torah a name: the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Priestly writers, and the Deuteronomist. The Yahwist was characterized by using the Tetragrammaton ("Yahweh") as the name of God. The Elohist writers, who called God "Elohim", were Israelite priests.

BTW, why do you keep plugging your own research, Simon, as though it is the truth instead of your opinion?

So do the "authorities believe" that there was a Moses ?
If so what portion of the Torah do they believe he wrote ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

And if Moses had no hand in the writing why did Jesus, when seeking to expound about himself to the perplexed people do so by :
" Beginning at Moses ...."( Luke 24:27)

" Beginning " being Clear indication that Jesus was explaining to them in conjunction with scriptures they were all familiar with ,and understood to be pre, not post written by Moses prior to the writings of all the other prophets ?

" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
scriptures the things concerning himself ." ( Luke 24-27 )

 

[jaybo]

Mosaic authorship is the traditional Judeo-Christian belief that the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, were dictated to Moses by the Abrahamic God. The books do not name any author, as authorship was not considered important by the society that produced them, and it was only after Jews came into intense contact with author-centric Hellenistic culture in the late Second Temple period that the rabbis began to find authors for their scriptures. The tradition that Moses was this author probably began with the legalistic code of the Book of Deuteronomy and was then gradually extended until Moses, as the central character, came to be regarded not just as the mediator of law but as author of both laws and narrative. [Wikipedia]

Jesus saying "beginning at Moses..." was His way of explaining Torah to the Jews. Nothing more...

 

[Consecrated Life]

Mosaic authorship is the traditional Judeo-Christian belief that the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, were dictated to Moses by the Abrahamic God. The books do not name any author, as authorship was not considered important by the society that produced them, and it was only after Jews came into intense contact with author-centric Hellenistic culture in the late Second Temple period that the rabbis began to find authors for their scriptures. The tradition that Moses was this author probably began with the legalistic code of the Book of Deuteronomy and was then gradually extended until Moses, as the central character, came to be regarded not just as the mediator of law but as author of both laws and narrative. [Wikipedia]

Jesus saying "beginning at Moses..." was His way of explaining Torah to the Jews. Nothing more...

For me Jesus is clearly placing Moses not only in league with all the " Prophets " of scripture and not only that but by placing him before them all at the " beginning " he is placing Moses first and foremost of all who had anything to say about His first Coming & how he would be cut off .
The subject matter of the passage is Himself not the composition of the Torah & " explaining the Torah to the Jews "


" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
scriptures the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27

 

[jaybo]

For me Jesus is clearly placing Moses not only in league with all the " Prophets " of scripture and not only that but by placing him before them all at the " beginning " he is placing Moses first and foremost of all who had anything to say about His first Coming & how he would be cut off .
The subject matter of the passage is Himself not the composition of the Torah & " explaining the Torah to the Jews "


" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
scriptures the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27

This says nothing about the Torah authorship, which is the thread's subject. The quote from Luke is using Moses as referencing Torah.

 

[Consecrated Life]

This says nothing about the Torah authorship, which is the thread's subject. The quote from Luke is using Moses as referencing Torah.

How could Jesus have been quoting the " prophets " to the people without implying " authorship ?
One follows the other as night follows day .


" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
scriptures the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27

 

[jaybo]

How could Jesus have been quoting the " prophets " to the people without implying " authorship ?
One follows the other as night follows day .


" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
scriptures the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27

Simply because Luke wrote "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets" doesn't mean that Moses wrote the Torah. There is ample evidence that Torah was written by a number of authors, as I have demonstrated.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Simply because Luke wrote "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets" doesn't mean that Moses wrote the Torah. There is ample evidence that Torah was written by a number of authors, as I have demonstrated.

Why would Jesus mention Moses pertaining to the " Scriptures" if Moses did not write anything ?

" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
SCRIPTURES the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27)

 

[jaybo]

Why would Jesus mention Moses pertaining to the " Scriptures" if Moses did not write anything ?

" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
SCRIPTURES the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27)

I don't know. If that's even the case...

As I said earlier, Luke wrote... "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets". That was Luke's way of referring to Torah and the prophets. He did not quote Jesus.

You wrote that "... Moses did not write anything". Should I take what you wrote as true, using the same eisegesis?

 

[jaybo]

The tradition that Moses was the author probably began with the legalistic code of the Book of Deuteronomy and was then gradually extended until Moses, as the central character, came to be regarded not just as the mediator of law but as author of both laws and narrative.

From Wikipedia's article entitled "Composition of the Torah"...

The composition of the Torah (or Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was a process that involved multiple authors over an extended period of time. While Jewish tradition holds that all five books were originally written by Moses sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE, leading scholars have rejected Mosaic authorship since the 17th century.

The precise process by which the Torah was composed, the number of authors involved, and the date of each author remain hotly contested among scholars. Some scholars, such as Rolf Rendtorff, espouse a fragmentary hypothesis, in which the Pentateuch is seen as a compilation of short, independent narratives, which were gradually brought together into larger units in two editorial phases: the Deuteronomic and the Priestly phases. By contrast, scholars such as John Van Seters advocate a supplementary hypothesis, which posits that the Torah is the result of two major additions—Yahwist and Priestly—to an existing corpus of work. Other scholars, such as Richard Elliott Friedman or Joel S. Baden, support a revised version of the documentary hypothesis, holding that the Torah was composed by using four different sources—Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomist—that were combined into one in the Persian period.

Scholars frequently use these newer hypotheses in combination with each other, making it difficult to classify contemporary theories as strictly one or another. The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, likely completed during the Persian period (539-333 BCE).

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't know. If that's even the case...

As I said earlier, Luke wrote... "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets". That was Luke's way of referring to Torah and the prophets. He did not quote Jesus.

You wrote that "... Moses did not write anything". Should I take what you wrote as true, using the same eisegesis?

" The Case " is that Luke says Jesus tied both Moses & the Prophets to words drawn directly from " scripture " to go in depth into the prophecies that referred to himself.
You can quote him on that .

" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
SCRIPTURES the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27)

 

[jaybo]

" The Case " is that Luke says Jesus tied both Moses & the Prophets to words drawn directly from " scripture " to go in depth into the prophecies that referred to himself.
You can quote him on that .

" And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the
SCRIPTURES the THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF ." ( Luke 24-27)

We can continue to go round and round on this. If you persist on basing your opinion -- that's all it is -- on a single verse out of Luke instead of the findings of scholars who have analyzed the Torah's authorship, then the discussion is over.

May I remind you that Moses had such a speech impediment that he asked God to have Aaron speak for Him. Exodus 4:10, "Moses said to the Lord, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue.”

I'm done. Bye.

 

[Consecrated Life]

We can continue to go round and round on this. If you persist on basing your opinion -- that's all it is -- on a single verse out of Luke instead of the findings of scholars who have analyzed the Torah's authorship, then the discussion is over.

May I remind you that Moses had such a speech impediment that he asked God to have Aaron speak for Him. Exodus 4:10, "Moses said to the Lord, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue.”

I'm done. Bye.

It explains much of your manifest perplexity in scriptural discernment to me that you believe Moses's third instance of foot dragging before God in taking the job, by downgrading his own speech, was an honest given self assessment.
You gleaned absolutely zilch from the entire scripture of Moses exchange with God regarding his clear unwillingness to take on the job.
One of the most astounding examples of scriptural inobservance I have witnessed in recent memory and actual cause for my concern on your behalf.
Although I must confess I am somehow not surprised that you missed that scripturally slow pitched, hanging ball as well .
God was not fooled by Moses's reluctant foot dragging and neither was Pharaoh whom Moses verbally wore out, let alone any child of God , including the first Martyr for Jesus sake, Stephen:

"And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians , and was
mighty in words and deeds " ( Acts 7:22 )

I do hope it is safe to assume that you have at least discerned that Moses was indeed raised & educated in the household of Pharaoh according to scripture ?
Or have the beloved " Scholars " advised you otherwise ?

 

[jaybo]

It explains much of your manifest perplexity in scriptural discernment to me that you believe Moses's third instance of foot dragging before God in taking the job, by downgrading his own speech, was an honest given self assessment.
You gleaned absolutely zilch from the entire scripture of Moses exchange with God regarding his clear unwillingness to take on the job.
One of the most astounding examples of scriptural inobservance I have witnessed in recent memory and actual cause for my concern on your behalf.
Although I must confess I am somehow not surprised that you missed that scripturally slow pitched, hanging ball as well .
God was not fooled by Moses's reluctant foot dragging and neither was Pharaoh whom Moses verbally wore out, let alone any child of God , including the first Martyr for Jesus sake, Stephen:

"And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians , and was
mighty in words and deeds " ( Acts 7:22 )

I do hope it is safe to assume that you have at least discerned that Moses was indeed raised & educated in the household of Pharaoh according to scripture ?
Or have the beloved " Scholars " advised you otherwise ?

Your criticism and sarcasm don't merit a reply.

 

[Truthfrees]

Scholars who reject the Mosaic authorship of the Torah are as unwilling as the Jewish leaders (John 5:39–40) in not wanting to listen to the words of Jesus on this subject.

Continue reading...

yep so true - the bible is true - the detractors are missing it

 

[Truthfrees]

It explains much of your manifest perplexity in scriptural discernment to me that you believe Moses's third instance of foot dragging before God in taking the job, by downgrading his own speech, was an honest given self assessment.
You gleaned absolutely zilch from the entire scripture of Moses exchange with God regarding his clear unwillingness to take on the job.
One of the most astounding examples of scriptural inobservance I have witnessed in recent memory and actual cause for my concern on your behalf.
Although I must confess I am somehow not surprised that you missed that scripturally slow pitched, hanging ball as well .
God was not fooled by Moses's reluctant foot dragging and neither was Pharaoh whom Moses verbally wore out, let alone any child of God , including the first Martyr for Jesus sake, Stephen:

"And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians , and was
mighty in words and deeds " ( Acts 7:22 )

I do hope it is safe to assume that you have at least discerned that Moses was indeed raised & educated in the household of Pharaoh according to scripture ?
Or have the beloved " Scholars " advised you otherwise ?

your posts are very interesting - thank you for posting