Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation in up to 15 sentences.

[Corinth77777]

Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation?

Jesus atoned for the sins of the world
He died to the first Covenant so that life would come to all that believed in Him.

So He opened up the gateway to God for all. (w/a)

And Jesus is that gateway for He fullfilled the law.

So no longer do merely the Isralies have access to God through the law.
But through His sacrifice all nations have access to the Father through faith in/of Jesus.

That is all I have for now
You are welcome to critique my understanding in love so I can learn. Tks

 

[GodsGrace]

Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation?

Jesus atoned for the sins of the world
He died to the first Covenant so that life would come to all that believed in Him.

So He opened up the gateway to God for all. (w/a)

And Jesus is that gateway for He fullfilled the law.

So no longer do merely the Isralies have access to God through the law.
But through His sacrifice all nations have access to the Father through faith in/of Jesus.

That is all I have for now
You are welcome to critique my understanding in love so I can learn. Tks

I don't believe anyone was saved through the Law. But through faith.

This is a good OP.

 

[Corinth77777]

I don't believe anyone was saved through the Law. But through faith.

This is a good OP.

I hear you- good to dicuss
Even in the writing I say they have "access" to God through the law:

hypothetically if they could have kept it. [Which we know now, but if we were them do you think we would have known until it was revealed?

So in their mind they knew the law was the layed out plan. Do you believe they knew it was faith until faith was revealed?

............
Now I am getting off the freeway for a second because of the traffic.

Saved from what?
So what the priest did each year did not deliver (save) them in any kind of way?

If not why does the psalmist know this: Is it
because He experienced it or because someone told him.

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

Even if the Law was meant to point out sin, would not the pointing out of sin, and the coverings under the law have (saved) kept them up until faith came?

So if what the priest did under the law did not cover the people, then why did they do it?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation?

Jesus atoned for the sins of the world
He died to the first Covenant so that life would come to all that believed in Him.

So He opened up the gateway to God for all. (w/a)

And Jesus is that gateway for He fullfilled the law.

So no longer do merely the Isralies have access to God through the law.
But through His sacrifice all nations have access to the Father through faith in/of Jesus.

That is all I have for now
You are welcome to critique my understanding in love so I can learn. Tks

Very good.
The only thing I would think to add , especially for the information of someone who has not yet heard the Gospel would be mention that only He who knew no sin was able to atone for all sin.

God Bless+

 

[Randy]

I don't need to add anything. Just read and believe.
Col 1:20
and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

 

[atpollard]

Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation?

Romans 10:9-10 [CSB]
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"[atonement] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, [atonement] you will be saved.[salvation] One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. [relationship]

... Paul did it in TWO sentences.

 

[Tenchi]

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Corinth77777]

Hi, thank you 4 your response, maybe you can help me out a little further.

Romans 10:9-10 [CSB]
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"[atonement] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, [atonement] you will be saved.[salvation] One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. [relationship]

... Paul did it in TWO sentences.

Allow me to pose a scripture to reference:

 
Gal 1
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

And 2 Cor 5:21

Now allow me to be more specific in my quest:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see atoning for someone sins.
Is by doing something to appease, pacify the other party that's involved.
A life for a life for example is close to that Ideal. Like appeasement for someone whose son had been murdered or killed.

So, is it safe to say, Jesus as a willing vessel, through His death, by the shedding of his blood appeased God and therefore made reconciliation with men Possible.

Did He make it "possible"? Emphasis on possible.
Hypothetically, would it be possible only if man trusted/or believed in Christ.

And another question: Are reconciliation and justification the same?

 

[atpollard]

Hi, thank you 4 your response, maybe you can help me out a little further.

Allow me to pose a scripture to reference:

 
Gal 1
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

And 2 Cor 5:21

Now allow me to be more specific in my quest:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see atoning for someone sins.
Is by doing something to appease, pacify the other party that's involved.
A life for a life for example is close to that Ideal. Like appeasement for someone whose son had been murdered or killed.

So, is it safe to say, Jesus as a willing vessel, through His death, by the shedding of his blood appeased God and therefore made reconciliation with men Possible.

Did He make it "possible"? Emphasis on possible.
Hypothetically, would it be possible only if man trusted/or believed in Christ.

And another question: Are reconciliation and justification the same?

Allow me to respond with a scripture and a question:

John 3:14-15 [NASB]
"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him."

• What happened with Moses in the wilderness that Jesus wants us to look at in order that we would understand the meaning of "so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him"?

THAT is Reconciliation and Justification and Salvation illustrated so that we might comprehend it (but you have to know the OT story to understand the NT lesson).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, thank you 4 your response, maybe you can help me out a little further.

Allow me to pose a scripture to reference:

 
Gal 1
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

And 2 Cor 5:21

Now allow me to be more specific in my quest:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see atoning for someone sins.
Is by doing something to appease, pacify the other party that's involved.
A life for a life for example is close to that Ideal. Like appeasement for someone whose son had been murdered or killed.

So, is it safe to say, Jesus as a willing vessel, through His death, by the shedding of his blood appeased God and therefore made reconciliation with men Possible.

Did He make it "possible"? Emphasis on possible.
Hypothetically, would it be possible only if man trusted/or believed in Christ.

And another question: Are reconciliation and justification the same?

Reconciliation and Justification is the same.
To reconcile with someone means to forgive them AND become friends again.
It's also possible to forgive someone and yet never be friendly with them again.

Justification means to be forgiven of your previous sins by God because you turned to Him and you are now a Son of God...this certainly is reconciliation.

As to Atonement:
something that you do to show that you are sorry for something bad that you did:
source: Cambridge Dictionary

We do bad every day. To God.
What could we possibly due to show that we are sorry?
Nothing.
So God took care of this and He Himself atoned for our sins through the death of Jesus who was the only "person" that lived a pure life, holy, and Who never sinned. Only He could atone sins to such a mighty being as God.

I don't, however, like the way you describe this atonement in your post above.
Appeasing God...An eye for an eye.
This Atonement Theory is known as the Penal Substitution Theory.
It makes God out to be angry and violent and vengeful.

The Satisfaction Theory of Atonement, which was offerred by Anselm in the 12 Century, would be more to the character of God. In this theory, Jesus would satisfy the JUSTICE of God and not His ANGER.
The Penal Substitution Theory became known after the Reformation in the 16th Century and is much crueler and not befitting a loving God.

There are other theories that I like a lot too.

But basically, yes, the sin against God in the Garden was so great that it had to be atoned in some way.
God knew Adam would sin and made plans in order to save mankind. Or, at least, for who wanted to be saved.

 

[Corinth77777]

Allow me to respond with a scripture and a question:

John 3:14-15 [NASB]
"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him."

• What happened with Moses in the wilderness that Jesus wants us to look at in order that we would understand the meaning of "so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him"?

THAT is Reconciliation and Justification and Salvation illustrated so that we might comprehend it (but you have to know the OT story to understand the NT lesson).

Hi, True
I do believe the Old Testament is the way of understanding the New. Most definitely, thank you.

My answer without reading it right now is they who looked stopped perishing. So I see that may begg the question of where regeneration fits in as well?

What was Jesus really telling Nic?
Another passage pops in mind as have you received the Spirit sense you believed.

I was thinking about this yesterday mornting
Reconciliation and justification are on the same starting point. And it was said that Justification is the legal or judicial Standing. And as discussed with spouse reconciliation is being brought together where one can now have a relationship; as to how one relates to one another.

Regeneration

"He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,..."

Sounds like if its not what We did then the washing of regeneration was what God allowed of Jesus to cleanse the world of sin and Justify us. The Works of righteousness of Jesus and God

Jesus having died to the sins of the world, And God raising Him up

R 4,25 who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

The scripture above sounds like the washing of regeneration. The scripture below sounds like the Work of Christ by God was shed on us, not sure:

Which he shed on us abundantly [1] through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal ...

One of God's graces seems to be the work of Christ shed on and just maybe through the giving of Christ's Sprit, which may be the holy Spirit

Jesus told Nic He must to be born again, my words> even, from above

Sorry to ramble on, got caught up.

When flesh gives birth to flesh, that is like saying what is of blood as a human with a body of the Earth produces another human. Hence maybe, What is Spritual in nature produces another spirit.

How am I doing so far?

 

[atpollard]

So I see that may beg the question of where regeneration fits in as well?

For "Jesus", that question was irrelevant. That is a question for PEOPLE to ask and ponder (I know I do). God always seems more interested in HEARTS and RESULTS than in "logical discussions" ... and when God does engage in logical discussions with us (people), he turns logic on its head: "Love those that hate you."

All that said, I do not think that "regeneration" fits neatly in any one place. [Caution, small sample size.] (You have been warned) ... I can speak with AUTHORITY about nobody except me. Mine is the only salvation that I have the inside information on. So for this ONE salvation, I know that I would not have gone to Jesus without SOME regeneration of my "heart" to draw me to Him. That is just an empirical fact. On the other hand, it is impossible to deny the progressive regeneration that occurred and still continues in my life that is commonly called "sanctification". As the saying goes "God loves me just as I am, but He loves me too much to leave me like this." Then again, I have a future promise that when I see Him face to face, I will be like Him ... so there is at least one more really big regeneration that I expect to take place.

Maybe that is why God doesn't waste time talking about WHEN He regenerates us ... it is a silly question for a God that started the process of regenerating us before He created the Earth and will complete it around the time He destroys the Earth and we gain glorified bodies to live in His House. When is "eternity to eternity".

What was Jesus really telling Nic?

The message was "It is about BELIEVE, it has never been about DO." (Hearts, not foreskins).

How am I doing so far?

You are searching for Truth (the deep things of God), which is always good. Just don't forget that "theology" is important, but not "THE MOST IMPORTANT". Like so much in life ... it is WHO you know and not WHAT you know.

 

[Corinth77777]

.

For "Jesus", that question was irrelevant.

Hi, tks again for your time!
I definitely believe it's relevent, and it was relevent I believe in that day, When it was asked, "don't you know that Christ is in you" or " have you receive the Spirit sense you believed"

And it's even more relevant today seeing that we are at the mercy of our own ideals. Another words as the world and culture change so also does tranlation, and meaning. And what may have been passed on to the blank slate of our minds sense we developed understanding as children can be the lense in which we now view passages and derive at our understanding and therefore what we participate or not participate in as to Kingdom building.

That is a question for PEOPLE to ask and ponder (I know I do). God always seems more interested in HEARTS and RESULTS than in "logical discussions" ... and when God does engage in logical discussions with us (people), he turns logic on its head: "Love those that hate you."

Well in this case I am studying and meditating on his word, And not as one who needs to be puffed up by what I may learn. And therefore logic even in meditation is useful. And sense God knows my heart He has not convicted my conscience of any wrong doing.

All that said,

Thank you

I do not think that "regeneration" fits neatly in any one place.

Ok, that is something to think about

[Caution, small sample size.] (You have been warned) ... I can speak with AUTHORITY about nobody except me. Mine is the only salvation that I have the inside information on.

...

So for this ONE salvation, I know that I would not have gone to Jesus without SOME regeneration of my "heart" to draw me to Him.

And this was one place a question came up in my mind. For reasons I may share else where.
For yes I seem to have reconciliation and justification at the same starting point (which is one place I needed your wise critique at) So I might further infer on where regeneration might fit there. For while you may have grown up with correct foundation and not in certain cultic ideals some of us may not have. Hopefully that sequential and may substantiate the reason for my looking into this enough to give you a clear conscience as to my motive.

Back to your thoughts, Yes I would think that we may have to be awaken first, and even before we can be forgiven. Maybe it's the light that shines on everyone that comes into the world. That light may illuminate truth that we can't help to see. And it may be in his creation and about, above, in and below the greatness of the whole universe.
For God seems to be seen in what He creates.

That is just an empirical fact. On the other hand, it is impossible to deny the progressive regeneration that occurred and still continues in my life that is commonly called "sanctification". As the saying goes "God loves me just as I am, but He loves me too much to leave me like this."

Good stuff, because this is a place I may have wanted to spur from in this thread.

Then again, I have a future promise that when I see Him face to face, I will be like Him ... so there is at least one more really big regeneration that I expect to take place.

Amen

Maybe that is why God doesn't waste time talking about WHEN He regenerates us

The scripures are the inspired word of God. And there are scriptures, and this one in Ephesians 2 that speak of beeing dead in sin and being made alive together with Christ.

Not only that when when Jesus Speaks to Nicademus.
and the rich man about entering the kingdom of heaven, and the one: have you received the Spirit sense you believed, and in Acts when Peter figures that God is no respector of person, and Ephesians 1:13 sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

... it is a silly question for a God that started the process of regenerating

Is it? when they are asked to check themselves if they are in the faith...and asked " don't you know that Christ is in you"

us before He created the Earth and will complete it around the time He destroys the Earth and we gain glorified bodies to live in His House. When is "eternity to eternity".

niether here nor there, you went ahead and judge my motive before seeing what it was.

The message was "It is about BELIEVE, it has never been about DO." (Hearts, not foreskins).

Same as above response, yet it's about both
As we do what we believe, and the outside reflects what's in our hearts. Yet this is not what I'm here to discuss.

You are searching for Truth (the deep things of God), which is always good. Just don't forget that "theology" is important, but not "THE MOST IMPORTANT". Like so much in life ... it is WHO you know and not WHAT you know.

This is all true, but I was not asking where you thought my motive was. But if I were on track in regards to my thoughts in what I wrote.
But at least you care.

 

[atpollard]

Is it? when they are asked to check themselves if they are in the faith...and asked " don't you know that Christ is in you"

Jesus (God) is not focusing on WHEN but IF. I have been to churches where Jesus loving and well meaning people have insisted that we (anyone that claims to be a Christian) should be able to give the exact DATE that they were saved. Can you recall even 1 verse of scripture where Jesus or an Apostle or anyone ever asked the exact date someone received the Holy Spirit?

I can't. I can list MANY verses that speak of being CERTAIN that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and many more assuring us that the Spirit in us is a "surety" (deposit, guarantee) that proves God will claim what God has already purchased (US)!

So the Bible is about DO YOU BELIEVE and ARE YOU SAVED and DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELL IN YOU ... not about "what came first, what came second, what comes third?"

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus (God) is not focusing on WHEN but IF. I have been to churches where Jesus loving and well meaning people have insisted that we (anyone that claims to be a Christian) should be able to give the exact DATE that they were saved. Can you recall even 1 verse of scripture where Jesus or an Apostle or anyone ever asked the exact date someone received the Holy Spirit?

I can't. I can list MANY verses that speak of being CERTAIN that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and many more assuring us that the Spirit in us is a "surety" (deposit, guarantee) that proves God will claim what God has already purchased (US)!

So the Bible is about DO YOU BELIEVE and ARE YOU SAVED and DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELL IN YOU ... not about "what came first, what came second, what comes third?"

Funny you should mention your last sentence.
Since it's some denominations that insist that a WHAT has to come first before another WHAT.

 

[atpollard]

Back to your thoughts, Yes I would think that we may have to be awaken first, and even before we can be forgiven. Maybe it's the light that shines on everyone that comes into the world. That light may illuminate truth that we can't help to see. And it may be in his creation and about, above, in and below the greatness of the whole universe.
For God seems to be seen in what He creates.

I am a Particular Baptist in my Theology. Let's break the words down.

• Baptist: I believe in "Credobaptism" rather than "Paedobaptism" ... fancy words as a shorthand for pretty easy to understand concepts:
  • Credobaptism: from Latin "Credo" meaning "I believe". Only people that already confess "I believe" should be baptized into the Church (local body of Christ). Springs from the belief that God calls INDIVIDUALS and only saved INDIVIDUALS are part of the Church.
  • Paedobaptism: Entire Families are baptized into the Church (including babies). It stems from the belief that God saves as a Covenant (like the old covenant) where the entire household is under special covenant blessings.
  • Baptists were founded on CREDOBAPTISM while groups like PRESBYTERIANS were founded on PAEDOBAPTISM.
• Particular: I believe that the ATONEMENT (Jesus death, burial and resurrection) absolutely secured for PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS a very real and effective salvation. Half of all Baptists are Particular Baptists and the other half are General Baptists.
  • General Baptists believe that the Atonement was made for all mankind (all men without exception) and secures for all men the opportunity to obtain salvation.
  • Charles Spurgeon, one of the greatest Baptist Ministers of all time, described it this way: Does God build a wide bridge, wide enough for the whole world, that only spans half-way across the river, or does God build a narrow bridge, just wide enough for "whosoever believes" to walk across, that spans all the way across the river?

So for me, it is all about GOD ...
what God did:

• [Mat 25:34 NASB20] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
• [Eph 1:4 NASB20] 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
• [Rev 13:8 NASB20] 8 All who live on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

what God does:

• [Rom 9:15-16 NASB20] 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." 16 So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• [Jhn 6:37-40, 44 NASB20] 37 "Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." ... 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [Jhn 10:27-29 NASB20] 27 "My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
• [Eph 2:4-5, 8-9 NASB20] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ... 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

what God will do:

• [Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
• [Eph 2:10 NASB20] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
• [Phl 2:13 NASB20] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for [His] good pleasure.
• [Rev 5:6-10 NASB20] 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took [the scroll] out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased [people] for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation. 10 You have made them [into] a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth."

There are MANY that will disagree and feel that God merely "invites" and crosses His fingers that fallen people will make the right choice so Jesus can save them. As a Baptist, we allow everyone the right to be wrong. ... but from my personal experience, that theory is complete nonsense. Bad trees do not bear good fruit, EVER. Fallen people do not choose God, they either reject God or worship a 'god shaped idol' of human manufacture. GOD calls, GOD draws, GOD saves and GOD preserves ... so to God Alone belongs all Glory (Soli Deo Gloria!)

 

[atpollard]

Funny you should mention your last sentence.
Since it's some denominations that insist that a WHAT has to come first before another WHAT.

That's THEOLOGY ... the part that people argue over. Nobody was ever saved, or disqualified from salvation, by an Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation).

 

[Corinth77777]

.

Jesus (God) is not focusing on WHEN but IF. I have been to churches where Jesus loving and well meaning people have insisted that we (anyone that claims to be a Christian) should be able to give the exact DATE that they were saved. Can you recall even 1 verse of scripture where Jesus or an Apostle or anyone ever asked the exact date someone received the Holy Spirit?

I can't. I can list MANY verses that speak of being CERTAIN that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and many more assuring us that the Spirit in us is a "surety" (deposit, guarantee) that proves God will claim what God has already purchased (US)!

So the Bible is about DO YOU BELIEVE and ARE YOU SAVED and DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELL IN YOU ... not about "what came first, what came second, what comes third?"

Ok

 

[GodsGrace]

That's THEOLOGY ... the part that people argue over. Nobody was ever saved, or disqualified from salvation, by an Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation).

But we don't agree on the ordo salutis, do we?
And this is VERY important for those unsaved to understand.
Or they could be waiting around forever instead of REPLYING to the INVITATION.

 

[Corinth77777]

Jesus (God) is not focusing on WHEN but IF.

We must have lot's of miscommunication

I have been to churches where Jesus loving and well meaning people have insisted that we (anyone that claims to be a Christian) should be able to give the exact DATE that they were saved.

who said anything about this?

Can you recall even 1 verse of scripture where Jesus or an Apostle or anyone ever asked the exact date someone received the Holy Spirit?

I can't. I can list MANY verses that speak of being CERTAIN that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and many more assuring us that the Spirit in us is a "surety" (deposit, guarantee) that proves God will claim what God has already purchased (US)!

So the Bible is about DO YOU BELIEVE and ARE YOU SAVED and DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELL IN YOU ... not about "what came first, what came second, what comes third?"

Now this I may be able to address
As I already have, you may want to know why that's important to me. And I explained without going into detail that not everyone comes from your foundation of teaching, Some ideals must be reworked in some who have a bad lense in how they have view scripture. And sense we are at the mercy of our own ideals, then those Ideals must be changed if they don't result in God's will in accord with this scripture:

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy

And this is the last clarification I will give on this. Some patience and later you may see where this might lead, for I would like to stay on the topic.

Now if 2 Timothy 3:17 is correct then for many, of cultic ideals, what comes 1st, 2nd, last or even if they act together matters. And in and of "scripture" as in the "all scripture" in 2 Timothy 3:17 if it can clear up misunderstanding or a dirty lense then would not it be as what you wrote, below " Are you saved?"

So the Bible is about DO YOU BELIEVE and ARE YOU SAVED and DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELL IN YOU

For how can one know they are saved if they (false or cultic ideal-) believe that no kinds of works are part of Salvation. If the issue that comes on the dirty lense is Justification is all of Salvation then they may never come to know they are saved.
They may have blind faith and say they believe because the Bible says, but may never through working out their salvation see that salvation, being in a state of deliverence and protection is in what we do together with God. So to come to know what they have by relationship. Therefore Justification and Sanctification are both part of Salvation. But if the kick off has never been regeneration then one may never get to:
"equipped for every good work" noted in
2 Timothy.