Faith Only Versus Doing

[Ernest T. Bass]

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. "


Mt 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"



Jn 3:21 " But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. "


Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

1 Jn 2:17 " And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. "

1 Jn 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. "

Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? "

Acts 9:6 "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. "

Acts 10:6 "He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. "

Acts 16:30 "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? "

Being saved is a matter of doing and not just a simple mental acknowledgement of Christ and Who He is...."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?", Lk 6:46.

 

[Webb]

Thats exactly what the Book teaches, straight from God's heart.

 

[wayseer]

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. "


Mt 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"



Jn 3:21 " But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. "


Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

1 Jn 2:17 " And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. "

1 Jn 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. "

Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? "

Acts 9:6 "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. "

Acts 10:6 "He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. "

Acts 16:30 "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? "

Being saved is a matter of doing and not just a simple mental acknowledgement of Christ and Who He is...."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?", Lk 6:46.

Quoting scripture is not conducive to good thinking.

Before you can embark on any discussion you will have first define what you mean by 'faith' and what you mean by 'doing'. Faith is not the opposite of doing as you seem to indicate. We 'do' because we have developed 'faith'.

 

[rrowell]

Quoting scripture is not conducive to good thinking.

Before you can embark on any discussion you will have first define what you mean by 'faith' and what you mean by 'doing'. Faith is not the opposite of doing as you seem to indicate. We 'do' because we have developed 'faith'.

Quoting scripture backing up a statement is much better than making a statement and not backing it up, the scripture he quoted did not say they are opposite, but that you cannot have faith/be faithful without "doing".


James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[for_his_glory]

James 2:
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It's not by faith alone as even Satan has faith to believe Christ is who he said he was and is, but choose to set himself higher than that of God making his own self a god. Our faith which is Christ also needs to be followed by the continued works of Christ as this justifies us being in the will of God that we not only justified, but joint heirs to all the blessings of God through Christ in us and working through us.

 

[wayseer]

Quoting scripture backing up a statement is much better than making a statement and not backing it up, the scripture he quoted did not say they are opposite, but that you cannot have faith/be faithful without "doing".

You are making the same mistake - creating a duality rather than a cause/effect statement.

This is not an either/or situation or a chicken/egg thingo. What James is trying to say is that faith 'generates' a call to action.

 

[wayseer]

It's not by faith alone as even Satan has faith to believe Christ

Satan does not need faith - he know who God is only too well.

 

[Yah1]

They refuse or are unable to see the spiritual side of God, they only see the Word.
Because spiritual refers to the soul, the soul of which is inside the flesh.

 

[heymikey80]

Satan does not need faith - he know who God is only too well.

"The demons believe -- and shudder." James

 

[heymikey80]

"No one is good but God alone." -- Jesus (Lk 18:19).
"All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one." -- Paul, (Rom 3:12) quoting ...
" They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
" -- David, under the Spirit -- the verdict of God's courtroom (Ps 53:3)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Quoting scripture is not conducive to good thinking.

Before you can embark on any discussion you will have first define what you mean by 'faith' and what you mean by 'doing'. Faith is not the opposite of doing as you seem to indicate. We 'do' because we have developed 'faith'.

Online dictionary defines
Doing:
1. action; performance; execution: Your misfortune is not of my doing.
2. doings, deeds; proceedings; happenings; events.

"Faith only" is the opposite of doing > no action, no performance, no execution, no deeds.

Biblical "faith" is a work, deed, action, performance

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan does not need faith - he know who God is only too well.

Is not faith another word for believing in something as even the demons believed and trembled at His name. Many have faith to believe there is a God, but yet refuse to have a relationship with Him, just as Satan who knew God in all His splendor still refuses to submit to Him.

 

[heymikey80]

Online dictionary defines
Doing:
1. action; performance; execution: Your misfortune is not of my doing.
2. doings, deeds; proceedings; happenings; events.

"Faith only" is the opposite of doing > no action, no performance, no execution, no deeds.

That's not the case.

Here's the Westminster Confession, one of the later systematic expositions of "faith alone":

"Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love."WCF 11.1, "Of Justification"​

"faith alone" is an answer to a question from the Reformation: "How is a person justified -- by faith, or by works, or by both?"

Biblical "faith" is a work, deed, action, performance

Not according to Paul: "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" Rom 4:4-5

This kind of argument is based on a misunderstanding of what Paul means by "works": that is, working for wages.

 

[wayseer]

Is not faith another word for believing in something as even the demons believed and trembled at His name. Many have faith to believe there is a God, but yet refuse to have a relationship with Him, just as Satan who knew God in all His splendor still refuses to submit to Him.

As I indicated - any discussion concerning faith should begin with a agreed definition of what it is one is actually talking about.

Faith, to me, is not the insipid belief that I have that the airline pilot actually knows how to fly a plane and will get me to my destination safely. That 'faith' is simply a matter of statistics and degrees of probabilities - which is basically an exercise in logic.

No - the faith we should be talking about is that faith which goes beyond the natural world into an unseen world as a matter of faith and not a matter of rote learning and deferring to psychological suggestion and emotional fantasy - which passes for much of Christianity in this degenerate age.

Satan does not need faith to 'believe' in that which he already knows. I no longer need faith to believe in that which I have already experienced.

So those whom you claim have 'faith' to 'believe' in God yet refuse to have any relationship with him likewise must 'know' God and reject him - as has Satan. Your example then is not an illustration of faith but an illustration of knowledge. (Actually I find it difficult to accept your premises that there are those who 'believe' in God but reject him/her).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's not the case.

Here's the Westminster Confession, one of the later systematic expositions of "faith alone":

"Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love."WCF 11.1, "Of Justification"
​

"faith alone" is an answer to a question from the Reformation: "How is a person justified -- by faith, or by works, or by both?"

Not according to Paul: "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" Rom 4:4-5

This kind of argument is based on a misunderstanding of what Paul means by "works": that is, working for wages.

First you quote the WCF which says faith is not alone but is accompanied by works of love.

So then faith would INCLUDE works of love.

But then you turn around and misapply Rom 4:4-5 and try to say that faith/belief does not include works.


So do works accompany or not accompany a faith that saves?










And do not try to say one is first saved by a dead faith alone (accompanied by nothing) then works follow for a dead faith alone cannot save much less produce works:

(1) faith only>>>>>>>>(2) saves>>>>>>>>(3) then works

The initial faith only (1) is dead being alone, unaccompanied by works. Therefore you begin and end at (1) and can never move past (1) for faith alone is dead on arrival at (1). A dead faith only (1) can never proceed to (2) or (3) for it is dead and can do nothing.

 

[Yah1]

So those whom you claim have 'faith' to 'believe' in God yet refuse to have any relationship with him likewise must 'know' God and reject him - as has Satan. Your example then is not an illustration of faith but an illustration of knowledge. (Actually I find it difficult to accept your premises that there are those who 'believe' in God but reject him/her).

You hit the nail right on the head. For someone who has come to Faith NEVER stops believing. It doesn't matter how weak or strong your Faith is right now. Your inheritance is permanent in heaven, and you never stop believing. Believing in something is a feeling inside of you. False prophets will say they USED to have Faith, but i no longer have that. Either their false prophets, or their playing games with either you or God which i highly recommend you do not do.

 

[heymikey80]

First you quote the WCF which says faith is not alone but is accompanied by works of love.

Yes.

So then faith would INCLUDE works of love.

No. I might be accompanied by a tool of my trade. That would not mean that I INCLUDE that tool, as if that tool were a part of me. No, I am not my tool, and my tools are not a part of me.

But then you turn around and misapply Rom 4:4-5 and try to say that faith/belief does not include works.

I haven't misapplied Rom 4:4-5. Paul explicitly said "does not work, but believes" It's so flat-out clear that Paul excludes work from belief -- from faith -- that it has only drawn from you some kind of "misapply" accusation -- an assertion for which you have adduced no support.

The data are clear, Paul is not contradicting himself to say "does not work but believes". That's precisely what Paul said. And you're saying belief is a work; but it's not. Not according to Paul.

So do works accompany or not accompany a faith that saves?

Yes, works come alongside faith given normal conditions. Another example, fish & chips accompany one another -- but fish aren't chips. "Faith" does not include works. It concludes works, given growth in the Spirit, the power to act, and the faith that saves.

And do not try to say one is first saved by a dead faith alone (accompanied by nothing) then works follow for a dead faith alone cannot save much less produce works:

(1) faith only>>>>>>>>(2) saves>>>>>>>>(3) then works

The initial faith only (1) is dead being alone, unaccompanied by works.

There're two kinds of faith, and James describes them. One is relying on someone else; the other is little more than an opinion. One actually develops into good works, the other has no real bearing on works. One has practical value for the brothers and the world; the other is no earthly good.

James declares that he shows faith by his works (James 2:18b). Clearly faith must precede works. Otherwise, the works, they ain't showin' nuthin'! Works must result from a saving faith. Otherwise they aren't showing anything at all about faith.

Before those works result? There's faith alone.

Paul also confirms that works result from a salvation through faith -- and not of works. It takes only scant check of Eph 2:8-10 to demonstrate this.

Therefore you begin and end at (1) and can never move past (1) for faith alone is dead on arrival at (1). A dead faith only (1) can never proceed to (2) or (3) for it is dead and can do nothing.

I don't begin at the end, the text of the Apostles demonstrates what they're saying. James is talking about two kinds of faith, one that is capable and thus results in works; one that never does (cf Jas 2:19b for this "other" faith). They're two qualitatively different kinds of faith: reliance on a person, in contrast with stipulation to a fact. James knows an opinion about a fact doesn't emerge in action: demons are the prime example.

And you describe "dead" faith being one that hasn't yet resulted in works. James confronts a much more practical issue. The problem is, James clearly shows works emerge as a result of the person's reliant faith. You simply can't get from James the idea that someone who isn't working at one moment, therefore has a dead faith during that moment. In fact, take your view to the extreme: when you're sleeping, doing no work: your faith is dead. So: definitely don't die in your sleep.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes.

No. I might be accompanied by a tool of my trade. That would not mean that I INCLUDE that tool, as if that tool were a part of me. No, I am not my tool, and my tools are not a part of me.

If you do not have the required tools to do the work then the work cannot be accomplished. Just as faith, if does not have works (but faith which worketh by love, Gal 5:6) it cannot accomplish anything either. AS Paul said a "faith which worketh by love" and love is keeping God's commands, Jn 14:15 so a faith that saves is a faith that worketh that works to keeps God's commands. Faith only being dead does not 'worketh love', it is in disobedience for it does not keep God's commands.

I haven't misapplied Rom 4:4-5. Paul explicitly said "does not work, but believes" It's so flat-out clear that Paul excludes work from belief -- from faith -- that it has only drawn from you some kind of "misapply" accusation -- an assertion for which you have adduced no support.

The data are clear, Paul is not contradicting himself to say "does not work but believes". That's precisely what Paul said. And you're saying belief is a work; but it's not. Not according to Paul.

You have consistently mispplied it wrongly by thinking that Paul was including ALL works when he said "not of works" when he was only referring to works of merit, the type of work in verse 4 the "worker" does to try and earn salvation. In another thread I started "The Prize" Paul said run to obtain. There is no obtaining the prize of an incorruptible crown/eternal life without the required work of running. The work of running does not earn the free prize but is a conditional work that is required in order to receive the free prize.

Yes, works come alongside faith given normal conditions. Another example, fish & chips accompany one another -- but fish aren't chips. "Faith" does not include works. It concludes works, given growth in the Spirit, the power to act, and the faith that saves.

Apples to oranges comparizon. Fish are not chips but faith is a work and Jesus even calls faith a work in Mark 2:1-5

There're two kinds of faith, and James describes them. One is relying on someone else; the other is little more than an opinion. One actually develops into good works, the other has no real bearing on works. One has practical value for the brothers and the world; the other is no earthly good.

James declares that he shows faith by his works (James 2:18b). Clearly faith must precede works. Otherwise, the works, they ain't showin' nuthin'! Works must result from a saving faith. Otherwise they aren't showing anything at all about faith.

James said there is a dead faith that has no works which is faith alone and faith alone is void of works. If argue faith alone is not void of works then you areguing that faith must include works. You cannot have it both ways.

Th other faith is a saving faith that has works.

Before those works result? There's faith alone.

Paul also confirms that works result from a salvation through faith -- and not of works. It takes only scant check of Eph 2:8-10 to demonstrate this.

I don't begin at the end, the text of the Apostles demonstrates what they're saying. James is talking about two kinds of faith, one that is capable and thus results in works; one that never does (cf Jas 2:19b for this "other" faith). They're two qualitatively different kinds of faith: reliance on a person, in contrast with stipulation to a fact. James knows an opinion about a fact doesn't emerge in action: demons are the prime example.

And you describe "dead" faith being one that hasn't yet resulted in works. James confronts a much more practical issue. The problem is, James clearly shows works emerge as a result of the person's reliant faith. You simply can't get from James the idea that someone who isn't working at one moment, therefore has a dead faith during that moment. In fact, take your view to the extreme: when you're sleeping, doing no work: your faith is dead. So: definitely don't die in your sleep.

Here is your problem that you have not and will not be able to resolve.

Your process of savlation is


(1) faith only>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(2) saves>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(3) then one does works


As I pointed out in my last post and what you cannot explain is that your initial faith alone (1) is DEAD, it's DEAD, it's DEAD as James said faith being alone is dead for it is void of works.


But you have the impossible task to try and make us believe that a dead faith only (1) can not only produce salvation but can also produce works. A dead faith, like a dead body in a grave, cannot do anything. You are stuck at (1) in your process of salvation and cannot move from there.

 

[John 8:32]

Quoting scripture is not conducive to good thinking.

Where do you get these gems?

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Psa 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

David understood the value of knowing and being able to call to mind and recite the scriptures. During the Showdown in the Desert, while waging the greatest battle ever fought, the battle for all of humanity, Jesus Christ's ONLY weapon was quoting scripture...

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
Luk 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[wayseer]

Exactly. There is a difference between quoting scripture and actually understanding that which gets quoted.

And you are right - Jesus knew scripture and knew when to use it effectively. He did not try to drown his adversary in a torrent of text.