Faith/Works

[RandyK]

Let’s see how John refers to brothers and brethren to gleen some understanding.


Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:13-16

To me John is referring to brothers in Christ.

Is it possible for a brother to begin to hate his brother?

Is it possible for a brother to begin to love the things of this world?


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
1 John 2:15-16


The answer to both questions is yes it is certainly possible for a brother to begin offended by another brother and begin to hate his brother.

Just as true it is also possible for that same brother who was offended to repent and forgive and be cleansed and learn to love his brother again.

The use of "brothers" in one letter in the Bible may not be the same way "brothers" is used in another letter of the Bible. It is a literary fallacy to assume one word in the Bible means the exact same thing as it is used in other places in the Bible.

As I said, Jesus spoke while Israel was under the Covenant of Law, making all Jews in a sense "brothers." This is not the way the Apostle John is using "brothers" in 1 John.

Yes, a Christian brother can hate and murder, which is a lapse caused by carnal temptation. It does not necessitate the loss of Salvation. But in a context in which murder is being described in the sense of complete apostasy, there is indeed an assumption of damnation. John implies that when he describes those who "hate" Christians.

The real question here is resolving whether the original faith of the apostate was "Saving Faith" or not. I don't personally think so.

I think anybody can believe in the Gospel intellectually without actually contracting in the heart to fulfill the covenant of Christ. In this case, someone may start out confessing the New Covenant without completely committing to it, eventually completely departing from it.

 

[JLB]

It is a literary fallacy to assume one word in the Bible means the exact same thing as it is used in other places in the Bible.

Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:13-15

Brother here in verse 15 means a brother in Christ.

If you believe otherwise and thinks it’s ok to hate people then that’s your choice.

 

[RandyK]

Please give me a scripture about nominal Christians so I can see what the scripture means by this.

This is a truism. When someone enters into a covenant, or perhaps an entire nation enters into a covenant, they are "name" followers of a covenant. Under the Law of Moses they were "Israel." Under the Covenant of Christ they are "Christians."

 

[RandyK]

Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:13-15

Brother here in verse 15 means a brother in Christ.

If you believe otherwise and thinks it’s ok to hate people then that’s your choice.

Brother hating brother here indicates one brother is a murderer and the other brother is a saint. How can the 1st brother be a brother and a murderer at the same time?

My argument is that brotherhood is a nominal designation which omits the process of confirming election. A person may commit to Christianity and not fully commit to it. As such, they are a brother, nominally, who then expose themselves as lacking a full commitment, and then completely go apostate by hating the very thing they originally claimed to be.

In this case, the term "brother" can mean two things, depending on the context. The 1st "brother" is a brother strictly by nominal designation. The 2nd "brother" is a true elect brother. These are two separate designations for "brother."

I pointed out that people under a covenant can confess allegiance to that covenant, and even understand and benefit from that covenant, without fully committing to it. All Israel committed themselves to the Law. And yet, how many full committed to it over the long run?

The same is true with Christianity. Entire nations have committed to Christianity. And yet, how many really stuck by their faith when things got hard? There are "brothers," and then there are "brothers!" ;)

 

[JLB]

Brother hating brother here indicates one brother is a murderer and the other brother is a saint.

When a brother begins to hate another brother he is as a murderer.

eternal life does not remain in him.

How can eternal life remain in someone it was never in?

Just like any sin, the brother who hates must come to his senses and forgive and repent so he can be restored.


If a car is driven out of a garage, then it does remain in the garage.

Can we honestly say the car was never in the garage?

 

[JLB]

How can the 1st brother be a brother and a murderer at the same time?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


The scripture is telling us the one who hates no longer has eternal life remains in him.

 

[RandyK]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


The scripture is telling us the one who hates no longer has eternal life remains in him.

My real point was, the one who hates never had eternal life in him. He had not fully committed to it, and therefore never really had it.

 

[RandyK]

When a brother begins to hate another brother he is as a murderer.

eternal life does not remain in him.

A brother who is a "nominal Christian" has not fully committed to Christ, even though he has signed on to Christian belief, doctrine, and practice. Salvation comes internally with a complete commitment--not perfection but a real contract without exemptions.

Such a brother was a brother in name only, and never had Eternal Life. Therefore, Eternal Life did not leave him.

How can eternal life remain in someone it was never in?

Eternal Life cannot remain in someone who never had it. He can fail to congregate with Christians, or depart from beliefs Christians hold. But he cannot depart from something he never had.

Just like any sin, the brother who hates must come to his senses and forgive and repent so he can be restored.

A genuine brother who has been "born again" can commit horrible sins and still repent and return to Christ.

If a car is driven out of a garage, then it does remain in the garage.

Can we honestly say the car was never in the garage?

Yes, lots of Christians in churches are there without having made full commitments to the New Covenant. They may or may not remain. But what is important, if they wish to have Eternal Life, is to commit fully to Christ.

 

[JLB]

My real point was, the one who hates never had eternal life in him.

I understand your point, which is why I said…

If a car is driven out of a garage, then it does remain in the garage.

Can we honestly say the car was never in the garage?

 

[JLB]

A brother who is a "nominal Christian" has not fully committed to Christ, even though he has signed on to Christian belief, doctrine, and practice.

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

What are you saying other than to believe the Gospel, does a person need to do to become born again?

Our Reformed brothers will tell you anything beyond believing is a work’s salvation.

When the brother believes, then he at that point becomes a born again Christian, not knowing anything about doctrine or practice or anything else.

He is simply a brother in Christ.

 

[onlysaved]

Well, it would if he didn't repent, but it sounds like we're in agreement. Thank you for the post.

He didn't repent until he was confronted by God's prophet.
God wanted David back, so God sent a prophet and God put it vin David's heart to repent rather than hardening Him..
David's salvation was always 100% God's work.

 

[onlysaved]

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

What are you saying other than to believe the Gospel, does a person need to do to become born again?

Our Reformed brothers will tell you anything beyond believing is a work’s salvation.

When the brother believes, then he at that point becomes a born again Christian, not knowing anything about doctrine or practice or anything else.

He is simply a brother in Christ.

Works WILL accompany salvation. Works are not required for salvation.
If one trusts in works for salvation they MUST do every work they have the opportunity to do and do them perfectly and with pure motives. Living according to Works is just like living according to the law. In fact it is living according to the law and not according to grace. It is a foundation other than the gospel and everything built on it will be burned up .

 

[RandyK]

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Yes, the assumption was that belief resulted in a genuine contract between the believer and God, whose word required that they fully commit to His ways, as opposed to their ways.

James said the devils believe. Obviously, they aren't "saved." James 2.19

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

What are you saying other than to believe the Gospel, does a person need to do to become born again?

I'm saying that believing God's word requires a genuine commitment to that word. And the word bases Salvation on the need to enter into an agreement with God to commit to His word and ways.

Accepting Jesus Christ is accepting him as our source of spiritual life, casting off our own ways as illegitimate and counterproductive. Belief in him without making such a commitment, in a way that lasts, is less than the kind of "belief" that results in Salvation.

A true "born again" experience not only enters into this kind of real commitment, but it is also made manifest by a complete change in character, producing the fruit of God's love. People can put on the robes of external righteousness without being truly changed within.

That is, they can do the works of Christ, appearing to be loving, but only doing things that by God's standards are "loving." But unless they actually are changed themselves, from within, they are only half-wit "believers."

Our Reformed brothers will tell you anything beyond believing is a work’s salvation.

I hold to a lot of Reformed Theology, but I'm not arguing that here. Nor do I adopt all of their pet sayings. I believe all people can experience God and do genuinely good works. But that doesn't mean that their character has changed internally, making them good. Only the born again know what it is for Christ to make them "good" in character.

When the brother believes, then he at that point becomes a born again Christian, not knowing anything about doctrine or practice or anything else.

He is simply a brother in Christ.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[RandyK]

I understand your point, which is why I said…

If a car is driven out of a garage, then it does remain in the garage.

Can we honestly say the car was never in the garage?

Not in your example.

 

[JLB]

Works are not required for salvation.

I think we all agree on that.

Believe is the condition that is required for salvation.

When one believes then they are saved.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the assumption was that belief resulted in a genuine contract between the believer and God, whose word required that they fully commit to His ways, as opposed to their ways.

James said the devils believe. Obviously, they aren't "saved." James 2.19

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Please tells us what more does an unsaved person need to do to be saved besides believe?

Please use scripture in your answer.

 

[JLB]

Not in your example.

I agree. It would be dishonest at best to claim that a car that did not remain in a garage was never in the garage to begin with.

 

[onlysaved]

I think we all agree on that.

Believe is the condition that is required for salvation.

When one believes then they are saved.

We don't all agree on that though. That's why this debate keeps coming up.

One cannot believe that we are saved by grace through faith and believe that baptism is required for salvation.. those two ideas are in 100% opposition to one another.

If it is by grace then salvation is a gift.
If it is by baptism then salvation is a wage that is earned. And we all know that we cannot do enough good works to gap the distance between us and the Holiness of God.

I've used this human analogy before to describe how powerful the corruption of sin is in all human beings. If Holiness were a scale on which our behavior was judges. Say a scale from 1-10
1. Being the worst person ever, say Hitler.
And
10. Being Jesus's sinless perfection which allows us into heaven

Hitler 1
Me 2
The apostles martyrs and great preachers and servants maybe a 3
Between 4-9? Nobody.

Becoming a 3. That's what good works will get you.

That's who we are in our moral charecter.. we're closer to Hitler than Jesus. On our very best day.

The Gospel begins with understanding how bad we really are and how hopeless our situation is.

I THINK I have a beginning of an understanding of how bad I am.. im probably wrong im probably much worse. I absolutely know I need a Savior and that there is nothing I can do to become a better person let alone a person worthy of being in God's presence. When I read the Bible. The two things that really stand out? How good and Holy God is and how sinful I am.
"There is no one righteous, no not even one"

 

[RandyK]

I agree. It would be dishonest at best to claim that a car that did not remain in a garage was never in the garage to begin with.

The example did not fit, as I see it. So your argument about a car in a garage does not fit a person who was a nominal Christian, ie was "in Christianity nominally," and then left it. He was not in the "born again" garage. Rather, he was in the "nominally Christian" garage, and left that.

 

[RandyK]

Jesus said those who believe are saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Please tells us what more does an unsaved person need to do to be saved besides believe?

Please use scripture in your answer.

I already answered. The fact that there are external Christians is all through the NT Scriptures. It is a *truism* to say that some Christians who follow Christianity are not truly saved, and only have an ephemeral experience.

We need not prove truisms because they are so true that saying them is ludicrous. Are you asking for proof that the sun will come up in the morning, or proof that the earth isn't flat? No, of course not. Neither should you be asking for Scriptural proof that some who follow Christianity are not truly born again, and only have a temporary experience of spiritual things.

Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.