False Rapture

[tdidymas]

Right. Some other god created the other things. Got it! Of course, we could take Colossians 1:16 literally.

Then why would you say that you don't think God created the spiritual realm? Did I read you wrong?

 

[miamited]

Then why would you say that you don't think God created the spiritual realm? Did I read you wrong?

I never said that. Perhaps reread my answer.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, we need a working definition of 'spiritual'. I'm pretty sure that Muslims have spiritual things, or at least things that the practitioners of that faith would see as 'spiritual'. I imagine a lot of 'religions' consider themselves to have spiritual matters associated with their practices, also.

People in other religions encounter real demons, so yes, there is a spiritual understanding in most religions.

And that's because...

I mean, honestly, can you explain to me why your reasoning says that because there are four dimension in our physical realm, then there must be four in the spiritual realm. I'm just not following your logic there.

At least 4. Because some of the apostles and prophets were transported into the spiritual realm and gave us a description of what they saw. Of course, it may have been limited to their 4-dimension perspective.

I didn't actually say that the spiritual realm doesn't exist. What I said was that I don't see the realms themselves as being spiritual. They are physical realms of existence. There are angels and demons that live in the heavenly realm where God resides. It isn't just some spiritual sort of existence, as I understand it.

So why isn't the heavenly realm a spiritual existence? Heb. 1:14 says that angels are spirits.
Then, how would you define "spiritual" if it's not the literal heavenly realm?

Now, we haven't either one seen what the heavenly realm where God and the angels reside is like. So I'm ok with believing that I may be wrong, but I may not be. But all I've been saying since the beginning is that I don't see any of the realms that God has created as being spiritual vs. physical in nature. But they each have some spiritual components to them. Yes, if God is there, then there is definitely A Spirit.

I'm sorry, and I'm not particularly versed in all of this stuff, but really, your logic again escapes me. I don't see how one must understand that because 'science has proven' that the human soul is not contained in the brain that it must then exist in a spiritual realm. I mean, I've always considered that my soul is inside of me right now in this physical realm that I'm living in. And how in the world did science prove that the soul is not in the brain? Did they actually find the soul somewhere else? Or they just went through someone's brain and didn't find a soul?

I mean this all just seems so laughably funny to me. Science has proven that the soul of a human being is not in the brain. I'd really, really, really like to see your evidence on that. Can you point me to the study that you're referring to?

If you are at all interested in how the spiritual soul's immortality is proven by science (and is not contained in the brain), you should read "The Immortal Mind: A Neurosurgeon’s Case for the Existence of the Soul" by Michael Egnor and Denyse O'Leary, found here: https://www.amazon.com/Immortal-Mind-Neurosurgeons-Case-Existence/dp/1546006354/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1I8USKQURYOU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.q-OBxKQLlkpKRhxlkBvTzCLHSyyZwbbqUCAak8N2EbedSzB92FqQgBd-r1HOox8w3Sy5RdgA-j_DKf2Acz3Hya_wQcy_Hi32zqREs9gVgzzoCbGbfbi7CJp4x8PhwcNxWAH4Prro1ncXbbMzIiFFfPIvr96URxWM8iXsJDdGYa21nsgx1UGGHNijM1Ftfpjfuceo1ID_STzoGEM55ZIMP_xNXC4yf1EiPx8aGBwCZpI.BeE-Mv4pdh3KEcOau1R-gclFMJr3dw3tvD2NA3jz3n4&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+immortal+mind+michael+egnor&qid=1759971550&sprefix=the+immortal+mind,aps,117&sr=8-1

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"Spiritual" means some connection with God, because as Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth." I don't see the Bible teaching that any animals have that connection.

Ok, the Bible doesn't explicitly teach that the spiritual realm (where God and angels live) was created by God. But we do know that angels were created by God, and so it is reasonable to conclude that everything in the spiritual realm was created by God. With that in mind, since there are at least 4 dimensions in the physical realm, there should be a corresponding 4 dimensions in the spiritual realm (or "angelic" realm as you would say it).

When you say the spiritual realm doesn't physically exist, I don't know what you mean by that. It's a different realm, and there are created beings in it, as well as God, just as there are created beings in the physical realm.

There is scientific evidence that shows the human soul is not contained in the brain, so it must exist in the spiritual realm. Just because the consciousness is necessarily attached to the body during life, doesn't negate the idea that the spirit of people is limited to brain activity. My point is, there are 2 very real realms that exist together.

Purely in physical existence is the dust, of which human beings as well as animals are formed by God. From dust we come, to dust we shall return.

And believe it or not, it was a common ancient Jewish teaching that the physical universe was designed with a 7000 year life cycle, each day in the Creation Week symbolizes a thousand years, Sabbath, the final day is the millennial reign, that's what 2 Peter 3:8 is referring to. When the 7000 years expires, it will pass away. The spiritual realm, on the other hand, exists forever because it's beyond the time-space continuum.

 

[miamited]

At least 4. Because some of the apostles and prophets were transported into the spiritual realm and gave us a description of what they saw. Of course, it may have been limited to their 4-dimension perspective.

And that's your answer to explain 'why' if our realm contains 4 dimensions, the spiritual realm must also. It dawns on me that if the two realms both have 4 dimensions, why would you seem to be inferring that the prophets may have been limited to their 4-dimension perspective? Wouldn't their 4-dimensional perspective be the same as the spiritual realm's 4-dimensional perspective?

Then, how would you define "spiritual"

I define spiritual as being things that have to do with the spirit. Here's how the Cambridge-Oxford dictionary defines it: relating to deep feelings and beliefs, especially religious beliefs.

If you are at all interested in how the spiritual soul's immortality is proven by science (and is not contained in the brain), you should read "The Immortal Mind: A Neurosurgeon’s Case for the Existence of the Soul" by Michael Egnor and Denyse O'Leary

I doubt I'll buy the book, but I may investigate what is publicly known about this writer's position. BTW do you have this immortal mind? Do you believe that your mind lives forever?

 

[miamited]

When the 7000 years expires, it will pass away. The spiritual realm, on the other hand, exists forever because it's beyond the time-space continuum.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

This realm will exist forever also. The only difference is that God is going to repopulate this realm with new heavenly bodies and a new earth. The new heaven and new earth will be the home of human kind and it will exist forever, also. The Scriptures seem to be fairly clear on the matter. When God comes in judgment, He is going to destroy this present earth and this present heavens. It will, as the Scriptures explain it, be rolled up like a scroll. The Scriptures say that what exists now on the earth is reserved for fire.

So, I'm not honestly sure that one can say that the spiritual realm is eternal but the physical realm is not. But it will be a 'different' physical realm.

 

[tdidymas]

And that's your answer to explain 'why' if our realm contains 4 dimensions, the spiritual realm must also. It dawns on me that if the two realms both have 4 dimensions, why would you seem to be inferring that the prophets may have been limited to their 4-dimension perspective? Wouldn't their 4-dimensional perspective be the same as the spiritual realm's 4-dimensional perspective?

I would not normally respond to snide remarks. But I'll attempt an honest response here.

You have a point, that "in the spirit" would likely give them heavenly perspective not limited to the physical 4-dimensional perspective. However, the descriptions of the heavenly realm they give us are largely 4-dimensional.

I define spiritual as being things that have to do with the spirit. Here's how the Cambridge-Oxford dictionary defines it: relating to deep feelings and beliefs, especially religious beliefs.

I don't go for a secular definition. I'm basing my idea solely on how scripture uses the term - "spiritual body," "in the spirit," "your whole spirit," "with your spirit," "body without the spirit," and such as this. I haven't before thought of a distinction between spiritual and heavenly. I know that the Bible uses terms differently in different contexts, and this includes the term "spiritual."

I doubt I'll buy the book, but I may investigate what is publicly known about this writer's position. BTW do you have this immortal mind? Do you believe that your mind lives forever?

The idea is that everyone has an "immortal mind" - not in the sense of physical immortality, but in the sense that the consciousness is active after death - after the spirit separates from the body. This is what Paul meant when he wrote, "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." It's what people call "going to heaven." Or, in the case of unbelievers, "going to hell," as in the case of the rich man in Luke 10.

 

[miamited]

I would not normally respond to snide remarks. But I'll attempt an honest response here.

So, my asking if what you posted to my post answered the question, is a snide remark.
Ok. I'm sorry, but I did ask it with a serious intent. You made a statement that said that there must be four dimensions in the spiritual realm BECAUSE there are four dimensions in this realm. I asked why that would logically be so? You responded:

At least 4. Because some of the apostles and prophets were transported into the spiritual realm and gave us a description of what they saw. Of course, it may have been limited to their 4-dimension perspective.

And honestly, I don't see how that answers the question that was asked, that you then linked to your response. Where in that reply above is the answer to why you know that there are four dimensions in both realms? And then, funnier than funny, you open that statement with, "at least four". So, are there four dimensions in the spiritual realm as there are in our realm or not? And on what do you rest that claim.

I am sometimes sarcastic in my responses, but this isn't one of them. This was a serious reply to your response to me.

I don't go for a secular definition. I'm basing my idea solely on how scripture uses the term - "spiritual body," "in the spirit," "your whole spirit," "with your spirit," "body without the spirit," and such as this.

Ok, and I'm glad you defined your terms. That was something that I also asked for quite a while back that we needed a working definition of 'spiritual' as is being used in this thread.

The idea is that everyone has an "immortal mind"

Right! That's exactly what I imagined that it was going to be. Just an idea or theory that someone has about this matter without any real evidence to support such idea or theory. And again, the book title says 'immortal mind'. Now, you have offered up YOUR personal definition of what that means to you, and may well be what is explained in the book. But the word 'immortal mind' means a mind that would never die.

not in the sense of physical immortality, but in the sense that the consciousness is active after death - after the spirit separates from the body.

Now in your explanation here you've said, "in the sense that the consciousness is active after death". How long after death? A few minutes? A few days? Or forever? If the answer is forever, then that would indicate and be properly referred to as an 'immortal mind'. And I assure you brother, that what your author is really describing is the immortal soul. And you or I don't either one really know what our existence as a soul, after our death, will really be like. Paul says that we will sleep, except for those who are alive when Jesus returns. The Scriptures speak of the souls under the altar. So yes, we know that we all have souls and that soul is eternal. Whether one's soul is set in heaven or in hell.

Do our earthly thoughts and memories go with our soul? Well, I don't honestly know at this point. But I do know that the Scriptures speak of our not having remembrances of the things of this world once we are ushered into the eternal life after judgment. Does that sound like someone who got to take their mind with them to the eternal life? I don't know, and I'm pretty sure that neither do your two co-authors. But it's a working study from which these two have attempted to glean some information about the mind. Is what they're professing the reality of what happens to our minds after death? I don't know. And honestly, I don't care. It will be what it will be, and as a child of God, I expect that however it works out it will be the best thing for me.

I mean, and I know this sounds callous as we consider it in our humanness, but it may well be that when we enter the eternal kingdom of God, we don't remember our loved ones and our lives before in the old creation. But we will be people of love and will make friends and acquaintances in the newly created earth and heavens. And since we have no memory of this life, we won't know that we're missing loved ones or that they're missing us. We will be living as new people with new brains that were created when our new bodies were given to us, and what that new brain has is what we will remember.

Now let me be clear, that just like your authors, this is just a working definition. But it is based on some biblical passages of God's word. Will we really be spending time looking for Aunt Sally and Uncle Joe; Mom and Dad and our siblings and grandparents? Or will we merely live a life enjoying life with God and all those who also chose God's way? Making friends and living in community with thousands upon thousands of good and loving people who are also God's people who have God as their God. Sitting around on the porch drinking lemonade and reminiscing about the things that dad did in the past or grandma will just not be something that we will do. You could just be living a life of joy with all those who love God and the person next to you might be your son or daughter and you won't even know it, because you have no remembrance of it. But no one will be sad about it. It just won't be something that we have in our new brain's mind.

Worth considering, but again, we don't any of us really know.

 

[miamited]

however, and I make this final point on this specific matter of our minds and memories, Jesus said that there will not be any sorrow in the eternal life with God. Now, if you remember your sister, mother, brother and were very, very much attached to them emotionally in love, don't you think you would be sorrowful if that loved one that you loved so dearly on the earth... didn't make it?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

This realm will exist forever also. The only difference is that God is going to repopulate this realm with new heavenly bodies and a new earth. The new heaven and new earth will be the home of human kind and it will exist forever, also. The Scriptures seem to be fairly clear on the matter. When God comes in judgment, He is going to destroy this present earth and this present heavens. It will, as the Scriptures explain it, be rolled up like a scroll. The Scriptures say that what exists now on the earth is reserved for fire.

So, I'm not honestly sure that one can say that the spiritual realm is eternal but the physical realm is not. But it will be a 'different' physical realm.

I'm not sure about your take, but to me, "pass away" 1 Rev. 21:1, Matt. 5:18 and 1 Cor. 7:31 all mean "expired", "cease to exist", "deleted", not "rebuilt" or "replaced". The millennial kingdom in Rev. 20 would be a restoration of the destroyed heavens and earth - still the old, but when it's over, out with the old, in with the new.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

however, and I make this final point on this specific matter of our minds and memories, Jesus said that there will not be any sorrow in the eternal life with God. Now, if you remember your sister, mother, brother and were very, very much attached to them emotionally in love, don't you think you would be sorrowful if that loved one that you loved so dearly on the earth... didn't make it?

Unfortunately, Jesus taught that he brought conflicts between family members, those who love their family more than he are not worthy of his discipleship. Therefore, if there's any sorrow you have that involves your dear family due to such conflicts, it will remain in this world, in eternity your only relationship is with lord Jesus.

 

[Elijah7777]

Jesus said he would return after the Tribulation.

When Jesus returns or for the Rabbi when the Messiah comes. There will be an earthquake. There will be a resurrec;tion and Jesus will enter Jerusalem through the East Gate that is currently bricked up so no one can claim to be the Messiah.

 

[Elijah7777]

People in other religions encounter real demons

We do not have to deal with demons because the blood of Jesus chases them away from us.

 

[Elijah7777]

Unfortunately, Jesus taught that he brought conflicts between family members

The conflict is between those who are saved and those who are not saved. The Church becomes our family. We have brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters.

For me, even if people have problems in their marriage. They are still brothers and sisters in the lord. I expect my wife to at least give me as much consideration as she does for her brothers.

 

[Jerusalem]

Is that problem very common? Because the ascension of Christ after his resurrection, although recorded by Matthew, isn’t known to have been seen by one and all, not worldwide. The resurrection, presumably of all the dead at the end of time, will be more visible, due to there being larger numbers.

You’re talking about a rapture, which is raising into heaven as Christ did after forty days. Now he wasn’t seen coming out from the stone grave, as far as the gospel, but by the angel who rolled away the stone. No human saw, and some disciples girlfriends or sisters were looking for him at the time, but even though they found the grave, he wasn’t there and the angel told them he was resurrected.

Later he met Thomas. Thomas wasn’t one of the disciples, but he was certainly and interested man. After forty days of traveling and contacting the surviving disciples and other close followers, Jesus rose to Heaven singly. Not everyone saw, and John the Revelator went out of his way to say way to state that in like the rising ascension, the descending second coming will be seen by all.

But the rapture? It could be “secret”, it won’t be, because you’ll see the second coming, but given the size of the globe, who’s to say that millions of ascending saved folks won’t be not seen flying into the midst of heaven by others on the other side of the planet? Maybe they won’t all know who made it until they reach the cloud of angels.

That’s picturesque, but rapture can be construed as long individual translation, as in the cases of Enoch and Elijah, also, there have been other recorded resurrections, including Lazarus, the daughter of the widow Nain, and Tabitha, Jairus’ girl. ’

What’s the issue? There can be fake raptures, actually I know tons of reincarnation theorists, at least they believe in that in a minor offhand way, it can just be a new age joke by someone who put on a new David Bowie type self reinvention show. Also, it can be used to write off kidnappings and disappearances, either as a cover up by a criminal, or even by a flabby lazy cop who doesn’t want to investigate a missing persons report.

 

[Elijah7777]

The resurrection, presumably of all the dead at the end of time, will be more visible, due to there being larger numbers.

The resurrection when Jesus returns will be a lot more visible. They have live cams and you can see the graves from the Mount of Olives and from the roof of the Aish School on the wall of the temple mount. There will be an earthquake just like there was before.

 

[for_his_glory]

One resurrection on the last day when Christ returns, but two different judgements.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell (grave) being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[tdidymas]

One resurrection on the last day when Christ returns, but two different judgements.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell (grave) being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

If there is a first resurrection, then there must be a second. If you think there is only one, how do you explain this?

 

[for_his_glory]

If there is a first resurrection, then there must be a second. If you think there is only one, how do you explain this?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

One resurrection, but to different destinations.

 

[Elijah7777]

how do you explain this?

They tell of a man who stole fruit by sitting on his friend’s shoulders. In court, the judge made him sit that way again — because that’s how the crime was committed.

Likewise, God resurrects the unsaved to judge them in the bodies they used. The lake of fire burns hotter than cremation — 5,000 degrees versus 1,000 — enough to dissolve even the elements.

Yet John Wesley preached: even if someone is cremated and their ashes scattered to sea or wind, God will still gather them and raise them up. Nothing is lost to Him.