False Rapture

[for_his_glory]

What do you mean takes? This took place in 70 ad.

Yes, Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. So, do you think that the son of perdition took a literal seat in the Temple of God in 70AD causing all to take the mark of this beast and then destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?

2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[hawkman]

Some disagree .

Left Behind The Rapture

I missed The Rapture What Now!? click here to get help Letter to the Left Behind download video here view video

leftbehindrapture.com

 

[RandyK]

The particular set of rapture doctrine is demonstrably false. Some claim it would be a quiet, secret event with no warning or signal, which contradicts the sounding of trumpet and shout of archangel in 1 Thess. 4:17, the very foundational verse of the theory. Rev. 3:10 and 4:1 are two other proof text, but upon close scrunity, 3:10 only applies to the faithful church of Philadelphia, and just because they're kept from the great tribulation doesn't mean they would be magically teleported into heaven or elevated into the sky at any random moment, they could all be six feet under long before the great tribulation, reading rapture theory into its interpretation is eisogesis. As for Rev. 4:1, the common narrative is that John the Revelator symbolizes the remnant church, from Rev. 4:1 and thereon he went to heaven, and there's no mention of the church again on earth; but actually, throughout the whole Book of Revelation, John was having a vision of the end time, he didn't go anywhere, his bodily presence remained on the island of Patmos. He didn't rise up into the air to meet Jesus, Jesus went to him in his glorious form.

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” (Rev. 4:1)

Yes, I've studied the Pretrib Rapture phenomenon for decades, and I can agree with you--the way the Bible is interpreted to suggest a Pretrib Rapture is scandalous. It doesn't utilize normal rules of interpretation.

Here, you give examples of "symbolic interpretation," which is hardly the normal way of interpreting the Bible, utilizing the literal meaning in the immediate context. Symbolic Interpretation can mean whatever the interpretor wants the text to mean, because the literal meaning is simply thrown out the door.

I'm not going to tell my fellow believers what to believe--that is the product of honest study and the revelation of the Holy Spirit. But I can't sit back and listen to bad interpretations fool the gullible. If Pretribbers want to use biblical texts to prove their argument, fine--just do it using proper principles of interpretation.

Personally, I haven't found in 50 years one single biblical text that indicates Jesus' Return *precedes* his 2nd Coming or the inception of the New Age. On the other hand, both Jesus and Paul explicitly align the coming of the Son of Man with the end of this age and the beginning of the new age.

This is in accord with Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven with the specific mission of destroying the Antichrist and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth. All of NT eschatology is based on this text in Dan 7, in my opinion.

 

[Elijah7777]

Don't mean to make a huge deal of this.

Perhaps a huge deal is that every word we speak will be judged. Matthew 12:36–37: “But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” We have to be very careful about every word we speak.

It is not my place to judge others. The Bible is very clear we are to judge ourself and not others. Romans 14:4 is the verse you're echoing: “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.”

Matthew 7:1–2: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged…”

 

[Elijah7777]

Symbolic Interpretation can mean whatever the interpretor wants the text to mean,

The Hebrew letters have very exact and precise meaning. This is why we need to learn how to read the Bible in Hebrew. So we can translate the word of God for ourselves. We should not depend on others to do that for us. Only the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and lead us in our way and in our understanding.

 

[Elijah7777]

So, do you think that the son of perdition took a literal seat in the Temple of God in 70AD causing all to take the mark of this beast and then destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?

Jesus was answering TWO (2) questions at the same time. They say if you get two rabbis together, you will have three answers. Jesus has two questions and one answer.

 

[RandyK]

The Hebrew letters have very exact and precise meaning. This is why we need to learn how to read the Bible in Hebrew. So we can translate the word of God for ourselves. We should not depend on others to do that for us. Only the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and lead us in our way and in our understanding.

That isn't part of the Gospel--that is just advice for those who wish to penetrate to find a clearer understanding of Scriptures. There is enough of God's word in translations to come to know God and His will.

Some are called to know the Scriptures more deeply. But it doesn't make them at all more spiritual to know Hebrew.

Those who know Spanish better than me may understand their language more precisely. But this hardly makes them better Christians than me.

Same with those who speak Hebrew and who can read the Bible in Hebrew. I'm glad you can. But I wish you would use your knowledge to determine context, and not Hebrew "letters" with special esoteric meanings.

 

[RandyK]

Perhaps a huge deal is that every word we speak will be judged. Matthew 12:36–37: “But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” We have to be very careful about every word we speak.

Lighten up, is my advice for you brother. God isn't waiting with an axe to cut your head off if you say something slightly off! He is a kind, merciful, and patient God who longs to forgive, correct, and bless.

Such warnings as you give is hardly of His Spirit! Jesus' warning was for those who beneath the surface were murderers. They spoke words of peace, and hid their ulterior motives designed to create chaos and war.

It is not my place to judge others.

Exactly.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus was answering TWO (2) questions at the same time. They say if you get two rabbis together, you will have three answers. Jesus has two questions and one answer.

What two questions, scripture please

 

[for_his_glory]

The Hebrew letters have very exact and precise meaning. This is why we need to learn how to read the Bible in Hebrew. So we can translate the word of God for ourselves. We should not depend on others to do that for us. Only the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and lead us in our way and in our understanding.

Are you saying that if we can not read fluent Hebrew then we will not know anything taught in the Bible!!!
How do you understand John 14:26?

 

[Elijah7777]

How do you understand John 14:26?

Jeremiah 31:33-34
“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. / No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. / And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

I do not think you can understand John14:26 of you do not understand Jeremiah 31:33-34 and Ezekiel 36:26-27. How many people say we do not have to follow the Law of God when we are clearly told: "to carefully observe My ordinances." The Grace of God does a work in us through the Holy Spirit of God so that we become the people God created us to be at or before our conception. Even before He knit us together in the womb.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do not think you can understand John14:26 of you do not understand Jeremiah 31:33-34 and Ezekiel 36:26-27. How many people say we do not have to follow the Law of God when we are clearly told: "to carefully observe My ordinances."

I don't want to make this about the 613 Levitical laws, but will let these scriptures speak for themselves. If you would like to start a new thread about the laws please tag me into that.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[RandyK]

I don't want to make this about the 613 Levitical laws, but will let these scriptures speak for themselves. If you would like to start a new thread about the laws please tag me into that.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Many Messianic Jews skirt the theological divide between Old Covenant and New Covenant--perhaps it's because their Jewish background is so strong, and their Christian theology so new or so weak. But you would be correct in saying that the Law was given strictly to Israel before the cross. It was designed as a temporary atonement, or "fix," until Christ could make atonement permanent and eternal.

Therefore, when Christ died on the cross, and the veil of the Temple was ripped in half, the Old Covenant laws ceased to be in effect, for Israel or for anybody. Where the confusion comes, however, is in recognizing that some moral or legal principles contained within the Law of Moses are eternal and apply to Man as he was created in the image of God.

Therefore, "do not murder," or "do not covet" were eternal principles inscribed into the Law but are not dependent upon the Law to be in effect. We are always to avoid murder and covetousness since we were mandated to live in the image of God.

The Law was indeed a "schoolmaster" leading us to Christ, in whom the fulfillment of all of God's mandates were completed. Living in him and walking by his word we do everything we need to have eternal life and righteousness--a free gift from Christ when we make him Lord and Savior and choose to follow him as such.

 

[Free]

The Hebrew letters have very exact and precise meaning. This is why we need to learn how to read the Bible in Hebrew. So we can translate the word of God for ourselves. We should not depend on others to do that for us.

Yeah, we probably should. No one has the time to learn it well enough and thoroughly enough to be able to accurately translate it for themselves, apart from those who intend to or actually do do it for a living. This is why those who do biblical translation have years of full-time schooling and experience. Very, very few lay people are going to have the time or even be able to learn Hebrew (or Greek). God gifts believers with various gifts, skills, and interests for a reason.

Only the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and lead us in our way and in our understanding.

Depending on precisely what you mean, that could be quite unbiblical. The Holy Spirit does guide us, but he guides us primarily through study, which includes the use of lexicons, dictionaries, and commentaries, and through others.

 

[Elijah7777]

Very, very few lay people are going to have the time or even be able to learn Hebrew

There are books and videos on youtube. I like to study under the Hasidic. They actually follow all of the 613 laws. I want to maintain my priesthood, but not to that degree and that level. It is no wonder that Jesus came down so hard on the teachers of his day. Because they just did not sacrifice themselves to live a life as an encouragement for others. Jesus talks a lot about that, and even when He was 12 years old, they were impressed with his understanding and the questions he was asking them.

Also, I am really into Sepher Yetzirah where everything is a metaphor. Everything in the entire universe. Paul himself talks about this when He tells us Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Paul is a lot easier to understand when you see that he is quoting someone or something. So we can go back and study what Paul us quoting. Although in Romans most of his references go back to David. So if we want to know what Paul says about the Law, then we need to read and study David.

 

[RandyK]

Here is an interesting exchange between Sproul and Carson on biblical interpretation, sent to me via my brother. Not endorsing anything, but thought it would confirm some good notions we may have on this subject. Not long--maybe 20 minutes....

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, I've studied the Pretrib Rapture phenomenon for decades, and I can agree with you--the way the Bible is interpreted to suggest a Pretrib Rapture is scandalous. It doesn't utilize normal rules of interpretation.

Here, you give examples of "symbolic interpretation," which is hardly the normal way of interpreting the Bible, utilizing the literal meaning in the immediate context. Symbolic Interpretation can mean whatever the interpretor wants the text to mean, because the literal meaning is simply thrown out the door.

I'm not going to tell my fellow believers what to believe--that is the product of honest study and the revelation of the Holy Spirit. But I can't sit back and listen to bad interpretations fool the gullible. If Pretribbers want to use biblical texts to prove their argument, fine--just do it using proper principles of interpretation.

Personally, I haven't found in 50 years one single biblical text that indicates Jesus' Return *precedes* his 2nd Coming or the inception of the New Age. On the other hand, both Jesus and Paul explicitly align the coming of the Son of Man with the end of this age and the beginning of the new age.

This is in accord with Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven with the specific mission of destroying the Antichrist and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth. All of NT eschatology is based on this text in Dan 7, in my opinion.

I actually feel sad. The dispensationalists are honorable, respectful and brave believers, they are probably the only ones who follow current events, discern the times and teach bible prophecies, most importantly, they unequivocally reject the LGBTQ corruption, and they support Israel while the rest of the world condemns, and yet they grasp so tight onto the rapture theory as the blessed hope instead of bodily resurrection. It seems like a paradox to me, that if the rapture is for the true and faithful remnant church, while the great tribulation is for the heathens and "earth dwelling" Jews, why are they care so much about the current events and interpret them through biblical lens even though God's wrath is not supposed to be appointed to them?

 

[Elijah7777]

yet they grasp so tight onto the rapture theory as the blessed hope instead of bodily resurrection.

The Bible is clear that we rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. This is the passage in REVelatrion 20 that you much be talking about. A literal reading would indicate that these are the people who were myrtered during what we call the tribulation period. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[RandyK]

Oh yea, I've wondered that for years. They produce movies about a time when they won't be here (according to them). If the story of Antichrist and his oppressions doesn't even apply to them, they should be preaching on the Rapture alone, and omit the time when they think people will ignore it until it's too late.

But it's funny. I've watched all of these Pretrib movies--entertaining to some degree. They have Christians courageously resisting the mark of the Beast--just as the Bible depicts as courageous those Christians who resist the Antichrist.

But how on earth can they become heroes overnight, right after ignoring warnings of the Rapture and living loose lives? Christians take years to mature and grow strong enough to resist temptations and evil attacks. Wisdom isn't born in just a few years.

Oh well. This is their fantasy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Oh yea, I've wondered that for years. They produce movies about a time when they won't be here (according to them). If the story of Antichrist and his oppressions doesn't even apply to them, they should be preaching on the Rapture alone, and omit the time when they think people will ignore it until it's too late.

But it's funny. I've watched all of these Pretrib movies--entertaining to some degree. They have Christians courageously resisting the mark of the Beast--just as the Bible depicts as courageous those Christians who resist the Antichrist.

But how on earth can they become heroes overnight, right after ignoring warnings of the Rapture and living loose lives? Christians take years to mature and grow strong enough to resist temptations and evil attacks. Wisdom isn't born in just a few years.

Oh well. This is their fantasy.

It is too horrible to picture us as the trabulation saints slain by the Beast System for rejecting the mark. Most are not prepared to be martyred for Christ like Charlie, rapture theory is a sales pitch to ease the anxiety and fear of the Great Tribulation.