Follow Me...

[Eventide]

Did God choose me ?

 

[Eventide]

I recently ran across a comment from a brother in another thread which struck me as (what I consider) a gross fundamental error in Christian beliefs and thinking...

I follow Christ and have been for more than 20 years. This was not my choice, but because I had run out of choices on my own, God chose me.

Perhaps one of the most foundational elements of the Christian faith is following our Lord Jesus Christ.. and as staggering as that might be in and of itself.. the very basis of doing that (following Him), is denying ourselves, and taking up our cross..

This is true whether you're IN CHRIST or not.. because even after a person is saved by the grace of God, we're to put off 'our' old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says that I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

So is God actually choosing 'me' here ?

How can that be when the very basis of Christian life is DENYING MYSELF so that Christ (alone) sits upon the throne of my life and reigns in me.. ?

Do we truly believe that God alone is Good ?

Can a man serve TWO Masters ?

I'll also continue in saying that the holy scriptures do not teach that God chooses 'us', period.. there's always a qualification to that statement.. ie, God has chosen us IN CHRIST... or God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

It's never God chose me.. period..

Consider this prayerfully and carefully because imo it's a vital (and often overlooked) truth of the Christian life.. to DENY OURSELF.. Why should I think or believe that God chose me in light of this simple and fundamental truth... Why would anyone think that God chose them unconditionally, as if there are no qualifiers to follow Him..?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world... so it often makes me wonder why so many today are led to believe that God chose them unconditionally... while not doing this for all in Adam.. it obviously creates a 'special' class whereby certain individuals are granted all of the love and grace of Christ unconditionally.. while the rest are simply left out in the cold so to speak..

And imo it all stems from many being taught today that God chose YOU.. because think of how that can begin to reign in your mind.. that's where the simple and glorious doctrine of election becomes centered upon men and not upon the Lord Jesus Christ.. the one and only one who is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights..

God didn't choose you.. God choose you IN CHRIST.. He sealed you with the Holy Spirit of promise after you heard the word of truth and after you believed.

IMO this is very serious.. although I suspect that it will not be received as the simple exhortation which it is.

Either way, may the Lord Jesus Christ alone be glorified !

 

[Danus]

Well, it's my quote. At least give me the credit for it. It can be found in a response I made here
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43711&page=3

Did God choose me ?

Sure he did. I have some question....

1. Why do you feel God has not chosen you?

2. what's this about serving two masters and being chosen by God? How is that related?

3. You asked, "do we truly believe that God alone is good?" yes, and the bible clearly says this. Who else is truly good?

4. How is being chosen by God not also following God? Can you clarify that? Let me ask it another way, What is inconstant with being chosen and following God?

 

[Eventide]

Well, it's my quote. At least give me the credit for it. It can be found in a response I made here
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43711&page=3

Sure he did. I have some question....

1. Why do you feel God has not chosen you?

I preferred to leave it anonymous..

For reasons which I thought that I detailed clearly in my follow up post.

2. what's this about serving two masters and being chosen by God? How is that related?

Who sits on the throne of our life.. is it me or the Lord ? So how would you see that as God choosing you ? When we're supposed to lay down our life for His infinitely glorious life, in us..?

3. You asked, "do we truly believe that God alone is good?" yes, and the bible clearly says this. Who else is truly good?

4. How is being chosen by God not also following God? Can you clarify that? Let me ask it another way, What is inconstant with being chosen and following God?

Because as mentioned... the foundational element of following Christ is DENYING SELF and taking up OUR CROSS..

How does that lead you to believe that God choose you ?

 

[Danus]

Who sits on the throne of our life.. is it me or the Lord ? So how would you see that as God choosing you ? When we're supposed to lay down our life for His infinitely glorious life, in us..?

Because as mentioned... the foundational element of following Christ is DENYING SELF and taking up OUR CROSS..

How does that lead you to believe that God choose you ?

For this to amount to anything I have to understand fully where you are coming from. I asked for your charity in my attempt to do that.

From what I understand of your view, I think, I would say that you feel that you are in charge of your life.

That is to say, that you believe it is you who sits on the thrown of your life. However, I'm not convinced that, that is what you believe, but you have indicated it is your choice to follow God, and not God's choice that you follow him. So that leads me to believe your in charge of you.

Your foundational reasoning is based on this verse. Luke: 9-23-24 NIV, 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

Am I understanding your correctly? Is that right?

 

[Eventide]

For this to amount to anything I have to understand fully where you are coming from. I asked for your charity in my attempt to do that.

I thought that it was fairly straightforward although from your comments below I can see that you're not focusing in on the question here..

Did God choose me ?

From what I understand of your view, I think, I would say that you feel that you are in charge of your life.

I can only begin to imagine how you have concluded this from my remarks.. although the question is.. did God choose me ?

That is to say, that you believe it is you who sits on the thrown of your life. However, I'm not convinced that, that is what you believe, but you have indicated it is your choice to follow God, and not God's choice that you follow him. So that leads me to believe your in charge of you.

Your foundational reasoning is based on this verse. Luke: 9-23-24 NIV, 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

Am I understanding your correctly? Is that right?

I can only say no... you're not understanding me correctly.. I'm asking "Did God chose me ?"

I offered reasons as to why I consider this to be a fundamental flaw in Christian thinking today.. and how that I believe it stems from many being taught that God chose us.. even unconditionally.

 

[Danus]

Guess I'm not taking your bait.

 

[Eventide]

So the question here is fairly straightforward... And there's no bait.. Just real life Christian discussion on what following Christ entails.. And how that might relate to God choosing you, even unconditionally.

 

[Danus]

So the question here is fairly straightforward... And there's no bait.. Just real life Christian discussion on what following Christ entails.. And how that might relate to God choosing you, even unconditionally.

Ok, so what's the question? I still don't understand how following Christ and being chosen by God are mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting. Or maybe your not suggesting that?

 

[Eventide]

Ok, so what's the question? I still don't understand how following Christ and being chosen by God are mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting. Or maybe your not suggesting that?

Well obviously you're not getting it... So perhaps you can share how God chose you and your views on following Christ.. If you'd like.. There are no obligations here..

 

[Danus]

Well obviously you're not getting it... So perhaps you can share how God chose you and your views on following Christ.. If you'd like.. There are no obligations here..

I'm pasting this from email on iPhone, so if someone can clean it up if need be, I'd appreciate it.......Reba ?

I've prayed about this answer. I try to pray before I get on to this forum. I don't always, but I find that when I'm in partnership with God I give better answers, and this one is a product of prayer. I prayed that I would give you the best answer for you, and anyone else that might be reading this as well.

So here is the answer.
I once had no desire for God. I once could not follow God if I tried, then one day I did. I had a conversion, a rebirth, from no faith in God, to faith in God. The short answer is that God chose me because I'm awesome! I'm hansom, I can juggle, and tell jokes. Seriously though, Why did I have a conversion experience, when so many others don't? Fact is, so many others do.

All around the world. Tons of people have conversion experiences just like mine, every day. Tons of people have this experience all the time. I don't know the exact numbers, nor do I care, but more to your question, why me?

The simplest personal answer is that I turned to God in my hour of need and disbelief, empty of myself, a defeated sinner, and at that moment I was reborn. I was given his gift of faith to see Him, to know Him, to trust in Him, and follow Him. Something I could not do before that moment.

Although others do, I did not read the bible before being born again. I did not go to church "willingly" before being born again. I could not tell you anything truly about God before being born again.

I can not tell you what the magic formula for conversion is, but I do know this, anyone seeking God will find him. But, they will do so on His terms, not on their own terms, and this I think is why some people who seek God may be slow to true conversion or oblivious to it at first.

Am I more deserving of Gods Love then you, or anyone else? Of corse not, and that is the point. Why would God choose me, other than his Love for me? I have no idea. Why would he choose anyone? We're rotten.

The bible says we are all sinners, all are sinners by our very nature. This means we are NOT righteous to the very core. There is no one good; no NOT one. I never denied this even when I did not know God. I already knew I was not righteous, and that is one of the basic requirements of salvation, knowing you are a sinner. Yet so many seem to claim they are not sinners. They follow the law, they follow Christ, and they are good. Really?

OK then, and I'm going to say something now that is honest, but not popular, and some people will look down on me from their high places, but here goes. I don't care what others think of my Christianity, or if others are converted or not, because the Christian life is not my call of duty, rather it is my privilege, and I am blessed for it.

God has done so much for me in one single instant moment than I could ever possibly do myself, and I am pleased to serve Him. Following Christ is easy for me. I have no choice but to follow. It is just who I am now. It's a no-brainer; it's a new nature.

You can not be dead to yourself if you are not alive in Christ. You can be defeated like I was, but to deny yourself requires an alternative to your self that only God can provide.

I pick up my cross with a smile on my face daily. It is my deepest desire. There is no alternative for me. It is my great privilege. If others people want to say they follow the law, and are righteous, then good. Great! Righteous people don't need to hear from me, or God for that matter. God told them how to be; do this don't do that, and so they say follow it, great. God says they don't, and they can't, but I'm glad they do. I figure that's just less God has to mess with right? In fact I see no reason for God to choose a righteous man. What's the glory in that? Why choose someone you can't have an effect on? When a man places himself on the same moral righteous plane with God I see no reason for God to choose that man, since he's chosen himself.

This question; "did I choose God or did he choose me?" is a fundamental question that I believe every Christian must answer. I have answered it positively for me, so it is not something I have to ponder. I'm in no position to do so because I already know; and there is nothing in scripture that tells me anything contrary to what I already know. What I find in the bible just adds to it, and so I can not answer the same question for you, or anyone else. I wish I could, but I can't.

In this physical life there are only two little sinners that I currently truly love and care about more than anyone else, or life itself. These days, I teach my kids about God. I read the bible to them, and I impart the principles of Christianity as God has instructed me, but I can not know if my own children are, or will ever be, converted. I want them to be. I love them, but they are not mine! They belong to God, and he will do what he will do as he sees fit for his own glory. They are simply in my care.

Often times I'll show them the right way to do things; you know, some task, and they will say; "yeah yeah, I know I know, I can do it." When they get that way I usually say; "OK then. You do it." and what happens next? They mess it up! They are my little disasters, and oh how they look to me when they come to me and say, "can you help me?" Do I punish them? No. I help them do it, clean up the mess made, whatever. I do this because I love them, and I can do all task they can not do.

The call of the self righteous is the same as my own children; "I can do it myself!" Why would God waste his time on anyone who says that? Why should they place any faith in him when they have firmly placed their faith in themselves? In the same way God can only say; "OK fine. You do it then."

God would like everyone to come to him, but not everyone does. Either they see no need, or they can do it themselves, but when they do truly come to him they say; "Can you help me?" and he says; "Sure". He chooses them. That is the best illustration I can give on what it is to be converted from trust in ones self of what can't be done, to trust in God for what has been done for them.

It has been placed on my heart in prayer that this answers the question of what this thread is about and I hope that helps.

 

[Eventide]

The Flesh and the Spirit...

Perhaps a vital aspect of this discussion is the very nature of the Christian life itself..

A born again Christian has two completely distinct natures living within the same lump of clay... there's our old man according to the FLESH, and there's the new man which is the SPIRIT of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

So there's our Adamic nature according to our natural birth, along with the new Divine nature of Christ from our spiritual birth... again, within the same lump of clay.. right within this frail earthen vessel of mine. There's literally an elder man (you) and a younger man (Christ) within you.

I would comment that the depth of these things are completely foreign to a newly born person in Christ, and begin to be 'realized' so to speak after years of scriptural study and experiencing life as a Christian... ie, following Christ..

We know that we're to reckon our old man as dead and yet at the same time we must also put him off... there's an ongoing WAR between the FLESH and the SPIRIT... and not only that we also war against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.

If a person has been in Christ for a number of years.. they should be well aware of this struggle within our members.. the true light of Christ within us should show us clearly who WE ARE and clearly who CHRIST is..

It's like Night and Day obviously.. the old man doesn't ever get any better (remember, we're to reckon him DEAD), and Christ in us can't get any better..

And that's our hope of glory.. it's not Christ and me.. my old Adamic nature according to the flesh will ALWAYS war against the SPIRIT of CHRIST in me..

It's Christ in me.. that's our hope of glory..

 

[Eventide]

Paul tells us how we were placed into the body of Christ, and ultimately it's the same for each one of us..

Paul writes: In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is when God placed us into the body of Christ.. it's when we were baptized into that one body (CHRIST) by the same SPIRIT.. also notice that it doesn't say that we choose Christ.. Paul writes that we trusted in Christ.. and after we believed, it was GOD who sealed us with the Holy Spirit.

And the funny thing is.. Paul tells us precisely WHY we were chosen from the beginning for salvation.. and it is through sanctification of the Spirit (this involves conviction, like being pricked in the heart), and believing the truth..

And of course believing the truth includes that I must follow Him.

 

[Danus]

I like what you've written here. I will respond tonight. I have something to add, but I think you worded this very well.

 

[Danus]

Re: The Flesh and the Spirit...

Perhaps a vital aspect of this discussion is the very nature of the Christian life itself..

A born again Christian has two completely distinct natures living within the same lump of clay... there's our old man according to the FLESH, and there's the new man which is the SPIRIT of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

So there's our Adamic nature according to our natural birth, along with the new Divine nature of Christ from our spiritual birth... again, within the same lump of clay.. right within this frail earthen vessel of mine. There's literally an elder man (you) and a younger man (Christ) within you.

I would comment that the depth of these things are completely foreign to a newly born person in Christ, and begin to be 'realized' so to speak after years of scriptural study and experiencing life as a Christian... ie, following Christ..

We know that we're to reckon our old man as dead and yet at the same time we must also put him off... there's an ongoing WAR between the FLESH and the SPIRIT... and not only that we also war against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.

If a person has been in Christ for a number of years.. they should be well aware of this struggle within our members.. the true light of Christ within us should show us clearly who WE ARE and clearly who CHRIST is..

It's like Night and Day obviously.. the old man doesn't ever get any better (remember, we're to reckon him DEAD), and Christ in us can't get any better..

And that's our hope of glory.. it's not Christ and me.. my old Adamic nature according to the flesh will ALWAYS war against the SPIRIT of CHRIST in me..

It's Christ in me.. that's our hope of glory..

I think you worded that pretty well, very well. I have to say this seems like a departure for you, Even, but I agree with it. Not that I need to, but it puts in perspective your theology.

The nature of man, the sinful nature of man, is not something often focused on in many professing Christian denominations, or I should say, it's something that people see differently. This is understandable.

However, while It's one thing to say it (the sinful nature of man) can, or cannot be, eliminated in the physical life of man with the Holly Spirit, it's quite another to say it does not exist. yet, we have people calling themselves Christian today who will say this, in fact teach it; who will say man has the ability to be perfect when the bible seems clear that man is not, and can not.

I realize I have bothers and sisters who believe the old man can be improved. I use to let it go, but this is something that bothers me more and more because I think it's a fundamental flaw that leads people into great guilt when they sin. The type of guilt that lead to doubt as they try to improve something that God has said needs to be dealt with, with a new nature in Christ. Also this has been my experience as a Christian. Growing in a new nature that is.

Non-Christians say that the sinful nature of man does not exist, or that it's just the way man is, and the worst of it is some chemical imbalance or something, which even they can't point to. This, they say, is what causes a man to walk into a theater and shoot it up, or whatever. Still others who follow various other beliefs than Christianity tend to say that the nature of man (whatever it is) can be perfected, which leads me back to worrying that this same thought can be found mixed in with Christianity.

Reformed Protestant theology get's a bad wrap for its focus on the sinful nature of man. Others tend to think, We seem to be embracing it and saying; "Oh well, that's just our old nature, What can you do? We're all sinners you know." But that's not what we are saying.

We are not excusing ourselves by our sinful nature. Rather, we're acknowledging it. So when we say that man is totally depraved, we are not saying he is as bad as he could be, or that there is nothing that can be done, or that there is no cooperation with God in dealing with our nature. This is not what Calvin, or Luther or any number of others where saying, but more than that, these guys did not invent, or discover anything that was not already there to begin with, but was largely lost by the 15 century within the institutions of Christianity.

One man I've been studying lately is John Newton. He's a good example of what we are talking about, and I can relate to him. He describes the growth of the Christian life as that of an oak tree not of a mushroom. A mushroom pops up over night. It might grow some more from there, but it's nothing. An oak tree grows over time, getting stronger over time. this is how he sees the new nature of man over time.

Why does he say this? He never really explains in his writings, that I have found, but he's saying this because he it's obvious to him. It's his experience from his own life, being saved, studying scripture, and ministering to others. If you look at his life his words make perfect sense.

Long story short, John Newton was a slave trader. He's most known these days for the song Amazing Grace. He co-wrote that with a friend of his.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

This sums up my salvation and that and many others. "That saved a wretch like me." A wretch, a sinner, depraved.

John Newton was still involved in the slave trade years after he was converted, and it weighed heavy on his heart. It lead to a great further redemption and written apology from him. Later he became a minister and he wrote many letters to people who wrote him seeking advice on the Christian life. These letters are really cool to read.

Here is a link to some if you'd like to read through some of them.
http://www.puritansermons.com/newton/newt_b.htm

I used to be ashamed. When I first became a Christian that is. I hid it. I stole a bible from a hotel room because I did not have one. It's an ugly brown Gideons bible. I was so hungry for God, yet too embarrassed to buy a bible and so I took this one.

My Mother came to my house one day to drop something off and she saw the bible on a table. That Christmas she bought me a study bible with my name on it. Inside she wrote, "From Mom and Dad, you have nothing to be ashamed about."

Those are very important words to me, not because my mother wrote them in that Bible she gave me, but because she expressed something that God expressed to me when he chose me to have faith. It is what needs to be said to the man who realizes he is a depraved sinner, a wretch by his very nature.

My sin nature? Well, I still have a sin nature. I'm well aware of it. I don't focus on it, or try to improve it, I could care less about it because it's not something I have to worry about. It's worthless. It can't follow God. It wants to do what it wants to do, but it is not in charge of me. God is. I still ask God for help. God's still growing my new nature in me, but as I look back I see that growth, and as I grow the more that new nature leads me and the less important my old nature is. At first I was ashamed of my new nature, now I am ashamed of my old nature, but it's OK. I have nothing to be ashamed about, and neither do you.

Does God choose us? Yes. Yes my friend he does. Why? Because he loves us, and he accepts us unconditionally. We have a hard time with this, because we don't apply that same standard to others who can not measure up. We are to be thankful that he is not like us because if he where, he'd offer no grace, no mercy and none of us could be counted worthy, but because he's no like us, we can, and we are. That is a choice he makes for us, on our behalf; for his glory and not ours.

 

[Eventide]

Thanks again for the commentary Danus, and we'll simply have to disagree on this one.

God didn't choose me at all.. He called me to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and to follow Him I must deny myself and take up my cross.

IMO you and everyone on this earth are in the same position.. Seek to save your life and you will lose it.. Lose it for Christ and you'll save it.

 

[Danus]

Those are semantics I'd say you can't go wrong with after hearing your take on the nature of man, but keep this in mind, not everyone is saved from the wrath of God. People leave this physical life with not an once of redemption. I had planed to be one of them. But if salvation requires a conscious response from the sinner then there are otherwise sweet people, who have no hope if God does not choose them, babies, the mentally handicap or ill for example. We are talking about theology here, and if the nature of man is sinful from birth, and salvation requires a response to the call; a receiving of God, they are doomed.

 

[jasoncran]

while im not in anywise an calvinist but i cant for the life me get those that espouse eternal security and yet deny what calvin says on other parts if you can willifully come to christ without him choosing you then you can willingly leave him.

 

[Eventide]

Those are semantics I'd say you can't go wrong with after hearing your take on the nature of man, but keep this in mind, not everyone is saved from the wrath of God.

Not sure that I'm following you here (pun).. are you implying that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't shed His precious blood for all in Adam ?

People leave this physical life with not an once of redemption. I had planed to be one of them.

Once again, whether you realized it, understood it, or even rejected it in the past.. Christ's blood was shed for you and for all men... there IS redemption for all men..

I obviously can see where many will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ, although that in no way teaches me that they were not redeemed by His precious shed blood.

But if salvation requires a conscious response from the sinner then there are otherwise sweet people, who have no hope if God does not choose them, babies, the mentally handicap or ill for example.

To whom much is given, much is required.. to whom little is given, little is required.. and I'm confident that THAT TRUE light can work in any heart and mind.. I also don't believe that children are damned from birth as so many seem to think these days.. although that's another discussion in itself.

We are talking about theology here, and if the nature of man is sinful from birth, and salvation requires a response to the call; a receiving of God, they are doomed.

What must I do to be saved..?

IMO it's amazing that people can come to think that they didn't need to do a single thing and then all of a sudden poof, God choose them unconditionally... and to think that this is what many are being taught today.. that there's no repentance, no denying self.. God takes care of the whole package for you and yet it's just too bad for the ones He does not choose.

Simply amazing imo... and once again, I believe it all stems from so many young Christians being taught today that God chose them... that THEY are the "Chosen of God"...

 

[jasoncran]

ok so a jew who comes to christ cant say he is chosen of god? yet that is why many a christians teach that the jew with or without christ is chosen of god.