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Forgiveness of Sins

O

Orthodoxy

Guest
John 20:21-23:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Jesus was given all the Authority of His Father, John 17:2, even the forgiveness of sins. I think we can all agree on that without reservation.

Now here we see this same Jesus say "as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you". The "you" here is 11 men, a group, not each individually but as a group, the Church. Jesus gives all authority over all flesh to the Apostles, more than once for in Matthew 18 He gives the Apostles the power to bind and loose men. So what we have is a common unity of men given all authority of the Father. The Church.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus then gives these 11 men (the common unity of believers or the Church) the Holy Spirit. The 11 men receive the Holy Spirit thus the Holy Spirit is in the common unity of the Church. The Holy Spirit is leading and guiding "the Church" as stated in John 14:26 and John 16:13 for the word "you" is a plural in these verses. Jesus is speaking to 12 men, the common unity of believers, the Church. So we can see the Holy Spirit leads and guides "the Church" and to be part of this procession then one needs to be "in the Church" or "in Christ".

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Then Jesus states to 11 men that they have the power given by the Father to remit or retain sins. Here we see the authority of Jesus Christ, given by the Father, transferred to 11 men with the power to forgive sins, the Church.

Acts 2:38

Repent and be baptised.

Repentance of sins can only be to the power of God give to His representatives in "the Church". Forgiveness of sins is only obtained through this authority of "the Church". Baptism is only found in "the Church".

Now my questions:

How can the "christian" world as we see it today claim they can go directly to God in so doing bypassing His ordained powers to forgive sins?

Can sin be forgiven through any other power but Christ ordained and transfered authority?

Can a "personal relationship" with Jesus forgive sins?

Why did Jesus ordain men and give them this authority if each christian can examine his own heart, which is deceptive according to scripture, then ask for his sins to be forgiven?

I believe this is why divorce, adultery, and a mirade of other sins are rampant in the "christian" world. Each man can examine his own heart and deem what is sin and what is not sin and repent accordingly and think God is obligated to forgive them just because they claim "believe" and say "Lord, Lord".

I take Jesus Christ at His word. Do you?

In all sincerity and love,

Orthodoxy
 
St. John Chrysostom,
Archbishop of Constantinople


Ver. 19 . “Peace be unto you.â€Â

That is, “Be not troubledâ€Â; at the same time reminding them of the word which He spake to them before the Crucifixion, “My peace I leave unto you†( John 14 ); and again, “In me ye have peace, but†“in the world ye shall have tribulation.†( John 16)

Ver. 20 . “Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord.â€Â

Seest thou the words issuing in deeds? For what He said before the Crucifixion, that “I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you†( c. xvi. 22 ), this He now 2555 accomplished in deed; but all these things led them to a most exact faith. For since they had a truceless war with the Jews, He continually repeated the, “Peace be unto you,†2556 giving them, to counterbalance the war, the consolation. And so this was the first word that He spake to them after the Resurrection, (wherefore also Paul continually saith, “Grace be unto you and peace,â€Â) and to women He giveth good tidings of joy, 2557 because that sex was in sorrow, and had received this as the first curse. Therefore He giveth good tidings suitable respectively, to men, peace, because of their war; joy to women, because of their sorrow. Then having put away all painful things, He telleth of the successes 2558 of the Cross, and these were the “peace.†“Since then all hindrances have been removed,†He saith, “and I have made My 2559 victory glorious, and all hath been achieved,†(then He saith afterwards,)

Ver. 21 . “As My Father hath sent Me, so send I you.â€Â

“Ye have no difficulty, owing to what hath already come to pass, and to the dignity of Me who send you.†Here He lifteth up their souls, and showeth them their great cause of confidence, if so be that they were about to undertake His work. And no longer is an appeal made to the Father, but with authority He giveth to them the power. For,

Ver. 22, 23 . “He breathed on them, and said, 2560 Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.â€Â

As a king sending forth governors, gives power to cast 2561 into prison and to deliver from it, so in sending these forth, Christ investeth them with the same power. But how saith He, “If I go not away, He 2562 will not come†( c. xvi. 7 ), and yet giveth them the Spirit? Some say that He gave not the Spirit, but rendered them fit to receive It, by breathing on them. For if Daniel when he saw an Angel was afraid, what would not they have suffered when they received that unspeakable Gift, unless He had first made them learners? Wherefore He said not, “Ye have received the Holy Ghost,†but, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.†Yet one will not be wrong in asserting that they then also received some spiritual power and grace; not so as to raise the dead, or to work miracles, but so as to remit sins. For the gifts of the Spirit are of different kinds; wherefore He added, “Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them,†showing what kind of power He was giving. But in the other case, 2563 after forty 2564 days, they received the power of working miracles. Wherefore He saith, “Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come 2565 upon you, and ye shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa.†( Acts i. 8 .) And witnesses they became by means of miracles, for unspeakable is the grace of the Spirit and multiform the gift. But this comes to pass, that thou mayest learn that the gift and the power of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, is One. For things which appear to be peculiar to the Father, these are seen also to belong to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. “How then,†saith some one, “doth none come to the Son, ‘except the Father draw him’?†( c. vi. 44 .) Why, this very 324 thing is shown to belong to the Son also. “I,†He saith, “am the Way: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me.†( c. xiv. 6 .) And observe that it belongeth to the Spirit also; for “No man can call Jesus Christ Lord, 2566 but by the Holy Ghost.†( 1 Cor. xii. 3 .)

Again, we see that the Apostles were given to the Church at one time by the Father, at another by the Son, at another by the Holy Ghost, and that the “diversities of gifts†( 1 Cor. xii. 4 ) belong to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[4.] Let us then do all we can to have the Holy Spirit with ourselves, and let us treat with much honor those into whose hands its operation hath been committed.

For great is the dignity of the priests. “Whosesoever sins,†it saith, “ye remit, they are remitted unto themâ€Â; wherefore also Paul saith, “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves.†( Heb. xiii. 17 .) And hold them very exceedingly in honor; for thou indeed carest about thine own affairs, and if thou orderest them well, thou givest 2567 no account for others, but the priest even if he rightly order his own life, if he have not an anxious care for thine, yea and that of all those around him, will depart with the wicked into hell; and often when not betrayed by his own conduct, he perishes by yours, if he have not rightly performed all his part.

Knowing therefore the greatness of the danger, give them a large share of your goodwill; which Paul also implied when he said, “For they watch for your souls,†and not simply so, but, “as they that shall give account.†( Heb. xiii. 17 .) They ought therefore to receive great attention from you; but if you join with the rest in trampling upon them, then neither shall your affairs be in a good condition.

For while the steersman continues in good courage, the crew also will be in safety; but if he be tired out by their reviling him and showing ill-will against him, he cannot watch equally well, or retain his skill, and without intending it, throws them into ten thousand mischiefs. And so too the priest, if he enjoy honor 2568 from you, will be able well to order your affairs; but if ye throw them into despondency, ye weaken their hands, and render them, as well as yourselves, an easy prey to the waves, although they be very courageous.

Consider what Christ saith concerning the Jews. “The Scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; all therefore whatsoever they bid 2569 you to do, do ye.†( Matt. xxiii. 2, 3 .) Now we have not to say, “the priests sit on Moses’ seat,†but “on that of Christâ€Â; for they have successively received His doctrine. Wherefore also Paul saith, “We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us.†( 2 Cor. v. 20 .)

See ye not that in the case of Gentile rulers, all bow to them, and oftentimes even persons superior in family, in life, in intelligence, to those who judge them? yet still because of him who hath given them, they consider none of these things, but respect the decision of their governor, whosoever he be that receives the rule over them. Is there then such fear when man appoints, but when God appointeth do we despise him who is appointed, and abuse him, and besmirch him with ten thousand reproaches, and though forbidden to judge our brethren, do we sharpen our tongue against our priests? And how can this deserve excuse, when we see not the beam in our own eye, but are bitterly over-curious about the mote in another’s? Knowest thou not that by so judging thou makest thine own judgment the harder? And this I say not as approving of those who exercise their priesthood unworthily, but as greatly pitying and weeping for them; yet do I not on this account allow that it is right that they should be judged by those over whom they are set. 2570 And although their life be very much spoken against, thou, if thou take heed to thyself, wilt not be harmed at all 2571 in respect of the things committed to them 2572 by God.

For if He caused a voice to be uttered by an ass, and bestowed spiritual blessings by a diviner, working by the foolish mouth and impure tongue of Balaam, in behalf of the offending Jews, much more for the sake of you the right-minded 2573 will He, though the priests be exceedingly vile, work all the things that are His, and will send the Holy Ghost.

For neither doth the pure draw down that Spirit by his own purity, but it is grace that worketh all. “For all,†it saith, “is for your sake, 2574 whether it be Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas.†( 1 Cor. iii. 22, 23 .) For the things which are placed in the hands of the priest it is with God alone to give; and however far human wisdom may reach, it will appear inferior to that grace. And this I say, not in order that we may order our own life carelessly, but that when some of those set over you are careless livers, you the ruled may not often heap up evil for yourselves.

But why speak I of priests? Neither Angel nor Archangel can do anything with regard to what is given from God; but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, dispenseth all, while the priest lends his tongue and affords his hand. For neither would it be just that through the wickedness of another, those who come in faith to the symbols of their salvation should be harmed. Knowing all these things, let us fear God, and hold His priests in honor, paying them all reverence; that both for our own good deeds, and 325 the attention shown to them, we may receive a great return from God, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, with whom to the Father and the Holy Ghost be glory, dominion, and honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114 ... xviii.html
 
Christ is my mediator and only through Him are my sins forgiven. Praise the Lord. I am part of the body of Christ and I am the church...I am in Christ and my sins are forgiven. Praise be to God!
 
Forgiveness

What is so hard about....?

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

and...

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Unless one are lost and can't see spiritual truth.
 
Bury thy Neighbour?

Shalom,

Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

In light of this I have a question? Why do we in the church criminalise or condemn sin and sinners? There are sins and and there are sins. We have laws in our states which criminalise certain sins; our laws are derived from scripture in thier foundation, but have the authority of the state to prosecute them. We appoint judges and administrators of justice to deal with these things. Then there are the more common sins which the law of the state pretty much decides to leave alone which are not actually punishable by a sentence and yet are still sins nonetheless; actions or behaviours upon the account of which the judgement of God is coming.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Why would Paul, then, realising that sin dwells in his own body, then condemn sinners? For it be so that sin dwells in the mortal bodies of all.

Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things.
Rom 2:3 Do you suppose, O man--you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself--that you will escape the judgment of God?

I've often heard the phrase, "love the sinner but condemn the sin" and while it may sound like a good short way of explaining all of this, well I think that in common parlance it loses too much of it's meaning. That the foundation for the idea must first exist in the mind of the hearer before he really grasps what is meant by this. Thus it's bandied about and used by Christians more than anyone else, but ends up being used to actually, yes, justify condemning the sinner along with the sin. So I dislike the use of it, personally. So please, don't use this phrase around me otherwise I'll throw the epistle to the Romans atcha. Can I ask a favour of you, actually? Can we stamp this much abused phrase out of existence and popular thought and replace it with something more scriptural? And at the same time, wipe out the fudgy statement, "sins of the heart" as well? Yuk. Instead, I prefer:

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Er, wow? This verse might be "longer" than, "love the sinner but condemn the sin" but if you examine this more closely, it doesn't actually offer any condemnation at all. Which is superior? Scripture or a pretty much slang phrase which is ill applied 99.9% of the time? It says, "thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and suffer not sin upon him".

I put it to you that it is not possible to condemn only the sin without condemning the sinner as well. The church, more than any other group, condemns the sinner yet more than even the world does. It is often easier to be accepted in any social circle than it is to be really accepted into the church.

So.. this scripture to me implies, caring! That God actually expects us to care about the eternal welfare of another. That you love your brother to care for him as well that he does not fall into sin. To find any way possible to reach your brother and basically, use all of your resource to not allow sin to entangle him!

If we then look a little more closely at what all this rebuking is about? Again in common parlance, rebuke is often interpreted to mean, "have a go at" or, "hit with short plank of wood" as a means of convincing the transgressor of his wrongdoing...

Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

There are sins and sins unto death but why is it the church then will have the tendency to "put to death" for perhaps even the least infraction? Isn't it up to God to decide this? If you are caring and acting in love towards your neighbour that you suffer not sin upon him? That you are in fact outraged by that your brother has been caught by sin rather than outraged by the fact that he sinned? Then what are you doing, "rebuking him" by any means?

I think I would rather be rebuked in Hebrew than in English!

yaw-kakh'
A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - appoint, argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), daysman, dispute, judge, maintain, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove (-r), surely, in any wise.

And I might like to be rebuked in Greek, but I still think I prefer the Hebrew better!

elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

But, yep, I sure prefer either to being "rebuked" in english! Which translated into common understanding, is simply, "switch the blighter till he screams". So do you love your brother enough that you will befriend and reason with him to the point where he is, in actual fact convinced of his error and will then take steps to prevent himself being entangled in sin? For he might have otherwise had no idea of what was waiting for him if he fell into sin. That you are caring enough of his eternal welfare to bring him to the point where he will avoid the sin that sought to trap him? To prevent him falling into a ditch? Then, if he will recieve you, you have saved your brother! Or... are you waiting there for him to slip so you can then clobber him around the head with a short plank? Which is acting in love?

It may be that from time to time I have been caught up in this controversy or that controversy; am I going to let it get me down my whole life? Not! And nor do I condemn others who have done the same. Howbeit so that the church is one of the most contentious and argumentative groups around? When we are supposed to be the opposite?

Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

.. let us go back to..

Joh 8:10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
Joh 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

You can see the results of Jesus' forgiveness;

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."

Jesus never condemned a sinner! He condemned sin in the flesh by crucifying it; do you see the love and concern from this man here in John. 5:14 that Jesus showed? He was eager for the man not to be tangled up in sin again! And if God doesn't condemn the sinner, nor do I.

So what will you do? Will you complete the Joy of the LORD by allowing others to move on from thier pasts? Is your love a love that keeps no record of wrong?

Phi 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Joh 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Will you bury your neighbour? Or will you allow him to bury his past?
 
Wow! This spoke to me! Thanks for that!

Or... are you waiting there for him to slip so you can then clobber him around the head with a short plank? Which is acting in love?

This bit in particular I like ;)

Too much focus on the sin itself and not enough love for the sinner - I think we can all be guilty of this one from time to time.

Thanks again :)
 
Welcome! I am happy that this has helped you.. to help others.. and the next guy.. :fadein:

Sometimes we just have to let the scripture do the talking, after all that's what it's there for.. to make you wise to salvation. I've found that all controversy does is stir up satan and then blinds otherwise perfectly intelligent people to the simplicity of what is actually being asked. It's nothing not within the capabilities of a human being. We just have to take care not to "darken the counsel" of the LORD as did Elihu the son of Barachel. (Job32-38) We allow our "selfs" or our own experiences of life to bias our view too much or this or that theology.

It's all derived from scripture. But scripture is scripture and nothing changes it. All scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine, (2tim3:16) not just Romans Chapter 2 or Job Chapters 32-38. And at the end of day, if you want to see scripture perfectly excercised you only need to look to Jesus.

I know I am making it sound perfectly simple and I agree that it isn't but also think that it is not beyond our comprehension so long as we are willing to invest that much time to really get to the bottom of it. Too many distractions. If I've learned anything it's not to allow yourself to be distracted by what others are doing or saying. It helps if people want to help, basically and I think that generally people are good natured enough to want to help. Sometimes we are better off without some kinds of help, but your best off of all if you can help yourself! God's word is there and I believe He gives wisdom liberally and without reproach to all that will seek Him. Why else did he send Jesus into the world? Not so that people would be so confused? But so that the can be saved.

And Shalom and Charis to you! 8-)
 
Here we see people proof texting to prove Jesus Christ wrong.

The question is:

Why then did Jesus give all the authority of His Father, power over all flesh, the forgiveness of sins to the Church at that time (12 men) if members of the protestant reformation can upsurp Jesus Christ's authority and bypass His forgiveness to find another path to God?

Do you believe the Jesus Christ of John 20:21-23 and take Him at His word?

Why darken the council of the Lord Jesus Christ with opinion and proof texting to prove Him wrong?

Orthodoxy
 
Ay what who? Or, "whatever", maybe? Am I to guess what exactly I'm being accused of or why or what? I assume you are a Roman Catholic who believes that only the pope has authority to forgive sins and or the twelve apostles who have been dead for 2000 years?

One of the things that I believe in is seeing all sides of an issue. Question? Are you then unable to forgive your neighbour of a wrong he has done to you because you have no authority to do so? In any case, even Peter realised that someone other than thier group of 12, could receive the Holy Spirit:

Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

It says here that Peter recognised non-Jewish people could and did receive the Holy Spirit. If he thought that then I think that applies to anyone within any denomination, anywhere.

1Co 14:36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
 
TheScarletPimpernel,

Ay what who? Or, "whatever", maybe? Am I to guess what exactly I'm being accused of or why or what? I assume you are a Roman Catholic who believes that only the pope has authority to forgive sins and or the twelve apostles who have been dead for 2000 years?

No. You assume from a Roman Catholic bias. I am an Orthodox Christian. I belong to the root of the tree the Roman Catholic CHurch fell off in a great falling away in 1054 ad. The Holy Orthodox Church is the root and the trunk of the Christian family tree. Historical fact you must ignore to believe the Orthodox are anything near the western churches.

One of the things that I believe in is seeing all sides of an issue.

Compromise eh? I was a member of the protestant reformation for 33 years. I know what the Protestants believe. I also know they do not accept the Jesus speaking in John 20:21-23 or the one speaking in John 15:26.

Question? Are you then unable to forgive your neighbour of a wrong he has done to you because you have no authority to do so?

This is not the forgiveness the man needs, I am not God. If I do not forgive the man then I cannot be forgiven according to Jesus Christ. My forgiveness does nothing for the man.

In any case, even Peter realised that someone other than thier group of 12, could receive the Holy Spirit:

In John 15:16 Jesus claims He chose and ordained the 12 men with the Power of God. He is talking to 12 men not one individual. These 12 men make up "the Church" Jesus is building, the foundation. How can a person build his temple without a foundation? This is the order of Christ's Church. He appointed these 12 men. When Judas died they replaced his "bishoprick" in Acts 1:20-26. Here we see the apostles replace Judas's eternal apppointment in the "house of God". Why do that if men are not needed to represent Christ's Church on the Earth?

If I get you correct, you personally have been breathed on by Jesus Christ and given all authority over men on the earth even the forgiveness of their sins without any connection to the organic church, the foundation built by Jesus Himself, right?

Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Yes, where is that telling us you personally have the authority to remit and retain sins? I cannot find a place where "succession" is ignored, fact is the Apostles appointed and ordained more men just as they did in Acts 1 above mentioned. Paul exhalts Timothy as an appointed bishop. Shepards are appointed to "fed His Sheep" in each and every Church in each and every city. It appears every Christian has a "bishop" an "overseer" a shepard appointed by "the Church".

It says here that Peter recognised non-Jewish people could and did receive the Holy Spirit. If he thought that then I think that applies to anyone within any denomination, anywhere.

You are equating the reception of the Holy Spirit to the ordained authority to forgive sins. I believe this self ordination is error. A person recieves the Holy Spirit from the Authority of the Church, the 12 men.

I can only assume you think the power of God died with the Aposltes and was reborn when you said "i do" to a Jesus.

1Co 14:36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Here again nothing ordaining you personally with the power of God and the authority to forgive a man's sin.

Why dont you take Jesus Christ at His words in appointing the Apostles?

It would appear to a prudent man that you are attempting to get in the Kingdom by another route.

Do you take Jesus Christ at His word or not?

Orthodoxy
 
Yes, I take Jesus at His word. I am undecided as to whether I accept all of yours but I appreciate that you have seen the truth that receiving the Holy Spirit when you become a believer is not the same as receiving the anointing for a particular position within the ministry. I think, well maybe you see me as "all wrong" that's OK, I can accept that with a serene heart, but whatever the case, I am happy to try and understand your beliefs as best I can. And I appreciate your explaining your veiws further, really, thank you very much.

Having re-read your reply more carefully, I think that my answers to your questions as to what I believe aren't as you assume them to be. My beliefs stem from the 6 basic doctrines of hebrews 6:1-2

1) repentance from dead works - Not attempting to win favor with God through the law.

2) faith toward YHVH - Whatsoever you ask in My name you shall have (including forgiveness of sin).

3) doctrine of baptisms - John's baptism/Jesus' baptism

4) laying on of hands - Freely ye have received; freely give (neither give nor take payment- or else(!)

5) the resurrection of the dead - What is sown in dishonour is raised in glory.. The resurrection of CHRIST, our resurrection symbolized in baptism as well as within our spiritman, as well as after our physical death. This may also be covered to a degree in baptisms.

6) of eternal judgment - It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment (Heb 9:27 pp). If you get redeemed and living in CHRIST you really don't need to care about it much. The only judgment will be whether you accepted CHRIST and what you did with it. If those are in order than there is nothing to eternal judgment because in those you are covered.

I could go into a lot more detail over these but to sum up my beliefs, anything that is received from God is received by faith alone. It is not a requirement for others to participate in your beliefs in order for you to be saved or even for them to be saved, the matter of eternal judgement is decided here and now when you accept CHRIST. If you are then acting in faith and reaching out to others in an attempt to draw them to Him, then you can be pretty confident of your eternal judgement. If you know Jesus here and now in this life, or that He is known to you and you to Him, and you are making the efforts asked of you, the only judgment anyone can get is based upon what they did, subsequently, with their "talent".

The point behind all of this is simply, "Faith"! That you believe God's word to actually do it. That you simply hear what God has spoken through the scriptures and then go and apply it in one way or another. That you are living in faith towards Jesus. As to the operation of the church, well it sure is nice to meet others who share your views or who will go and help and support you or vice versa in their efforts of ministry to others but, nice is all it is! You still have to do something with your talent thus there is always an element of the Christian life you need to do alone. There is both the corporate and the individual. It just seems the corporate bit is where there are the most difficulties for everyone.

No doubt there will continue to be controversy but if controversy is all that's to be had in corporate fellowship, that's still no excuse for not standing up and practising your faith. Controversy is something I have no longer any truck with. Edify me; for if the righteous reprove me, it shall be pleasure; tell me all you know and I will tell you all that I have heard. Whatever your views, I don't ask that you change them only that you don't demand that I change mine.
 
TheScarletPimpernel said:
Yes, I take Jesus at His word. I am undecided as to whether I accept all of yours but I appreciate that you have seen the truth that receiving the Holy Spirit when you become a believer is not the same as receiving the anointing for a particular position within the ministry. I think, well maybe you see me as "all wrong" that's OK, I can accept that with a serene heart, but whatever the case, I am happy to try and understand your beliefs as best I can. And I appreciate your explaining your veiws further, really, thank you very much.

TheScarletPimpernel,

That was very gracious, thank you.

My aim is to make people think. This is not a contest of who is right and who is wrong. Fact is I am wrong. If we are not to lean on our own understanding then where are we to lean? Surely we cannot lean on the bible that tells us we cannot interpret it our own way. So where does a Christian go to seek counsel and get wisdom? I believe a christian needs the Church for wisdom and understanding. Outside this body a man is leaning on his own understanding. I gleen knowledge of the Christian faith from more that one source (the bible). I use the bible as a tool just as holy tradition is a tool to gain a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ through His body, the Church. I express no personal opinions that I cannot back with the historical and authentic teachings of the Church. I lean on the 2000 year old tearsure trove of knowledge and wisdom to be freely taken from the historical and authentic Church. The Holy Orthodox Church.

I invite you to visit an Orthodox Church near you and investigate the historical organic Body of Jesus Christ on the Earth, the one in which Saul tried to kill and failed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Orthodoxy
 
Thank you, I will do so as and when time permits. I like visiting other churches. At the moment I am in a CofE church, which has been a thoroughly agreeable experience. As a mutual exchange, I also offer you to visit another website I frequent which I like a lot, and also is a place where thought is encouraged, if you would like, and to one and all, if you have appreciated anything I have said, please come and visit, Tree of Life Ministries Association.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Amen!
 
TheScarletPimpernel said:
Thank you, I will do so as and when time permits. I like visiting other churches. At the moment I am in a CofE church, which has been a thoroughly agreeable experience. As a mutual exchange, I also offer you to visit another website I frequent which I like a lot, and also is a place where thought is encouraged, if you would like, and to one and all, if you have appreciated anything I have said, please come and visit, Tree of Life Ministries Association.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Amen!

Nice web site. Messianic? I dont think there is one of these in my city.

You would like orthodoxy if ya like "jewish" type traditions kept by Jesus Christ while He lived.

http://www.oca.org/DIRlists.parish.asp?SID=9

Look for an orthodox church here.

We are worldwide, one Church. If I go to an orthodox Church down under in Australia the service will be the same as here in Colorado where I am in the good ol USA. If I attend a service in Japan it will be the same Orthodox service seen in Denver, Colorado. If I attend the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, Israel it is the same service seen in Calhan, Colo. A town of about 1500 people founded in the early 1800's not soon after the founding of this very nation. If I go to "Orthodox Christian's" Church in the parish he serves the service will be the same and I will know this guy next to me confesses the same exact God and we will worship as brothers, even so we worship now as seperate but one in that the orthodox christians Church service is eternal and timeless, transending all that is or ever will be.

Glory forever!

Orthodoxy
 
TheScarletPimpernel said:
Yes, I take Jesus at His word. I am undecided as to whether I accept all of yours but I appreciate that you have seen the truth that receiving the Holy Spirit when you become a believer is not the same as receiving the anointing for a particular position within the ministry. I think, well maybe you see me as "all wrong" that's OK, I can accept that with a serene heart, but whatever the case, I am happy to try and understand your beliefs as best I can. And I appreciate your explaining your veiws further, really, thank you very much.

Having re-read your reply more carefully, I think that my answers to your questions as to what I believe aren't as you assume them to be. My beliefs stem from the 6 basic doctrines of hebrews 6:1-2

1) repentance from dead works - Not attempting to win favor with God through the law.

2) faith toward YHVH - Whatsoever you ask in My name you shall have (including forgiveness of sin).

3) doctrine of baptisms - John's baptism/Jesus' baptism

4) laying on of hands - Freely ye have received; freely give (neither give nor take payment- or else(!)

5) the resurrection of the dead - What is sown in dishonour is raised in glory.. The resurrection of CHRIST, our resurrection symbolized in baptism as well as within our spiritman, as well as after our physical death. This may also be covered to a degree in baptisms.

6) of eternal judgment - It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment (Heb 9:27 pp). If you get redeemed and living in CHRIST you really don't need to care about it much. The only judgment will be whether you accepted CHRIST and what you did with it. If those are in order than there is nothing to eternal judgment because in those you are covered.

I could go into a lot more detail over these but to sum up my beliefs, anything that is received from God is received by faith alone. It is not a requirement for others to participate in your beliefs in order for you to be saved or even for them to be saved, the matter of eternal judgement is decided here and now when you accept CHRIST. If you are then acting in faith and reaching out to others in an attempt to draw them to Him, then you can be pretty confident of your eternal judgement. If you know Jesus here and now in this life, or that He is known to you and you to Him, and you are making the efforts asked of you, the only judgment anyone can get is based upon what they did, subsequently, with their "talent".

The point behind all of this is simply, "Faith"! That you believe God's word to actually do it. That you simply hear what God has spoken through the scriptures and then go and apply it in one way or another. That you are living in faith towards Jesus. As to the operation of the church, well it sure is nice to meet others who share your views or who will go and help and support you or vice versa in their efforts of ministry to others but, nice is all it is! You still have to do something with your talent thus there is always an element of the Christian life you need to do alone. There is both the corporate and the individual. It just seems the corporate bit is where there are the most difficulties for everyone.

No doubt there will continue to be controversy but if controversy is all that's to be had in corporate fellowship, that's still no excuse for not standing up and practising your faith. Controversy is something I have no longer any truck with. Edify me; for if the righteous reprove me, it shall be pleasure; tell me all you know and I will tell you all that I have heard. Whatever your views, I don't ask that you change them only that you don't demand that I change mine.

We believe in faith. umm This is not the issue. The issue is community. The issue is belonging to the community of believers that can align itself with the early Church in all things and have all things in common. Common community is iron sharpening iron in the fire of God. The "corperate" body has already spoken in the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Church set on the president put forth in Acts 1, continued in Acts 15 and prophesied as the 318 bishops (Genesis 14:14) in Nicena 325 ad. To this day the Church remains steadfast in its confession found in the finalized Nicean/Constantinople Creed of 381 ad. Unchanged.

My question is why reinvent what already is functioning as a whole unit eternally? The Church does not need reinventing. No, the Church needs people to enter, to be healed.

In Love,

Orthodoxy
 
Hi Orthodoxy,

Nice web site. Messianic? I dont think there is one of these in my city.

You would like orthodoxy if ya like "jewish" type traditions kept by Jesus Christ while He lived.

Glad you like it! In actual fact, even though there is a lot of Jewish interest on the site, that's not why I go there, myself! As less traditional Jew you could not find! How can I explain in a nutshell the general idea for the site? Apart from the obvious, of making the presence of the ministry known, to convey at least something of the thought at the Tree, allow me to demonstrate using this scripture?

Act 5:34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while.

Act 5:38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" So they took his advice...

Basically you see in Gamaliel a Jew who is looking, for that moment, beyond the traditions of his peers and getting half an idea of what God might be doing outside of those things? That he was more or less accepting that God was not contained in or by thier traditions; That HE is able to work both with them and also with others if He so chose. Therefore he advised his peers not to oppose them in case they would then be found to oppose God. He doesn't ask them to join however!

Whether his peers listened or not, another question but basically, that is what is generally asked of those coming to the discussion forums. That they be willing, for but a time, to look past their traditional beliefs to what else God is doing. If you feel perhaps that you want to reach further than your denomination's beliefs and consider that maybe there is more of Him to discover!

My question is why reinvent what already is functioning as a whole unit eternally?

Thus to answer your question, nothing is being re-invented, and as it is said, there is nothing new under the sun, and what is being asked is that you consider, that the body is larger than you might have previously thought. That there are others outside of your denomination, your church, your group, whoever or wherever you may be, who equally are also members of the body as well.

As for me, well I have been brought up into no tradition at all, so I am coming from the opposite direction, rather than leaving traditions I am discovering, yes, there is something of God to be had in the traditional church, as I said, I have joined a CofE congregation and found God to be there as much as in any other church, and in actual fact found the experience to be more agreeable, generally than some of the less traditional charismatic/evangelical groups thus I have come to the conclusion, to each his own but at the same time, I am at liberty not to limit myself to any one tradition. So, I can be happy in traditional church and happy in not traditional church; rather, wheresoever it may be that I find God!
 
TheScarletPimpernel,

Thank you for your response.

Just to set things clear as I can make them about "tradition". Jesus lived a life on the earth, can we agree? If yes then what did this "life" look like? Let us examine His life while on the Earth.

Jesus Prayed. Agreed?

Jesus gave alms? Agreed?

Jesus fasted? Agreed?

Jesus healed? Agreed?

Jesus raised the dead? Agreed?

Jesus visited the temple to worship God, His Father, in a specific manner prescribed by God in the jewish faith? Agreed?

So Jesus lived a life. When He left the earth He left behind His body, in a mystical and glorious way the Head is in Heaven and the Body is on the Earth. When Jesus was on the Earth He said this:

John 3:13, And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus Christ standing right before your eyes says this to you "even the Son of man which is in heaven"? Umm Jesus you are standing right before me how are you in heaven? Here Jesus is showing us a great mystery and that is while He was on the earth as the head His body was in heaven. When Jesus Christ acsended to the Father His body came to the Earth. Thus the Church, the Body of Jesus Christ, is a living, breathing, tangible life, knowable, personal, community of believers living in a specific custom and manner. His life is tradition. Become like Jesus means living the life He lived and in the manner He lived it.

God demanded of the Jewish nation a specific way of life. Jesus also demanded of us a "way of life". Jesus said, "When you pray", "when you fast", "when you give alms"(alms btw are works above and beyond the tithe, Jesus expected those that follow Him to tithe then He added doing good works with ones "time", alms giving). Jesus said "do this in rememberance of Me", "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand", also baptism, marriage, healing, etc,etc,etc. all "traditions of Jesus Christ".

Do not let the protestant reformation steal a deeper understanding of the life of Jesus Christ by misinformation about "traditions". For certain there are "traditions of God and "traditions of men" or Jesus would not have condemned man's traditions. Traditions are good when they are God's tradition. Can you name a few traditons of God you holdfast to as part of your "christian faith"?

It is my humble opinion "Life in Christ" is the Orthodox way. The life of Jesus Christ is lived on the earth through the Holy Orthodox Church, the common community of believers holding fast to the faith delievered by the saints 2000 years ago.

One would do well to investigate this life.

In Love,

Kyril
 
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