Forgiveness without repentance?

[Jordanthedutchy]

Kay...this is a very controversial subject, I was actually looking for a thread about it because we have recently been learning about it. But since I couldn't find one I decided to start one of my own.


Okay here it goes.

I believe that you can not forgive someone until they are repentant.

But read on, let me tell you why I believe that.

I believe that it is totally clear in scripture.

"...If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day, turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." (Lk. 17:3-4).
When Jesus taught us to forgive, he placed a CONDITION on that forgiveness "...IF he repent, forgive him". God does not unconditionally forgive anyone and Christ said our forgiveness of others is conditioned upon their repentance.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)
The Lord is not slow about His promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, REPENT and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place, UNLESS you repent." (Revelation 2:4-5 )

Over and over, the condition for forgiveness is repentance! It says IF we repent he is faithful and just to forgive... do you understand where I am coming from?

People ask me:
(Matt. 6:14-15) "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." What about that?

This is the answer that I have come up with:


Matthew 18


The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[1]
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[2] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[3] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Now I’m sure you are very familiar with this story. What I see in this passage is this:
The servant who was forgiven the huge debt went out, came across someone else who owed him money and demanded that he be paid. The man ASKED for mercy, and the servant did not give it to him. Therefore the king, in turn did not forgive him.
We are to forgive men when they ask for forgiveness, because if we don’t, when we ask God for forgiveness He will not give it to us.

People ask: How do you deal with the bitterness?

I believe that bitterness is our WRONG reaction to situations, we must give situations to God, and not feel bitterness, but rather sadness and pain over the circumstances. Now pain and sadness are different than bitterness. That is actually the RIGHT way to deal with the situation. Grief and pain. You can find comfort from grief and pain in your Heavenly Father. But you cannot find comfort in bitterness.

We are also commanded to Forgive as our Father forgives. God hasn't forgiven everyone with out them asking for it. It is always there to be accepted, but he hasn't actually forgiven us. Because if he had forgiven the whole world, then the whole world would be going to heaven. Which they aren't.

Anyway...I hope this makes sense.
would like to know what you think about it.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Yes, I do believe we can forgive others before they repent.
No, God can not forgive sin, until there is repentence.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Yes, I do believe we can forgive others before they repent.
No, God can not forgive sin, until there is repentence.

How?

Would you forgive them for your benifit, or theirs?

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Yes, I do believe we can forgive others before they repent.
No, God can not forgive sin, until there is repentence.

Are you saying that we can do something that God can't? The only thing that we can do that God can't is sin.

 

[IndianaEnoch]

Yes, I do believe we can forgive others before they repent.
No, God can not forgive sin, until there is repentence.

How?

Would you forgive them for your benifit, or theirs?

Wow, got an easier question? Actually I had to deal with this in real life. I had a person who was a friend and another pastor friend working for me. Because of arrogant attitudes and not following my instructions. They cost my business so much that by the time I caught it I wound up refinancing a house that I had almost paid off. That was 5 years ago and I still am paying for their neglect. Through prayer i came to realize that forgivenss comes before repentance or restitution. I had to do it for my benifit. There are some proverbs that tells us to forgive for our sakes. Now that does not mean they were forgiveness because at that time they had not asked for it. I had made it their and God's problem not mine. One of them appologized a few years later and has actually become a christian since that time. The pastor has yet to even acknowledge his wrong. I have nothing to do with him because he has a distructive personality and I just cannot have that kind of person in my life. He always has run ins with others. But, because I was able to forgive him ther eis no root of bitterness in me even though I am still paying for what he did. IF he would repent then we would associate because it would mean he had turned away from his distructive nature. I however also need to remember that I struggle with my own sins and not allow my separation to be judgement on him. I simply stay away from him because he always hurts those near him.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

If there is no restitution is it forgiveness. I agree that there can't be bitterness, and it is wonderful that you have given this man to God. I'm wondering if maybe people have been using the word forgiveness wrong? In the wrong context I mean. Forgiveness is a transaction! Should there maybe be another word for this one-way act of giving to God and not holding any bitterness? I don't know. Just a suggestion.

 

[IndianaEnoch]

I hear what your saying Jordan,

Perhaps it is the differerence between forgiveness (noun) and forgiven (verb) I enacted forgiveness despite no restitution. But an action needed to be taken for the offender to be forgiven. That action would be repentance. So despite the lack of repentance of the one, my forgiveness exist but only benifits me. For the other who repented (appolgized) we both have benifited.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

And I hear what you are saying. I know people like to say that they forgive someone to take a load off their back. But I don't see it in scripture!
It is always dependent upon the person being repentant.

Show me a verse from scripture that says that you should forgive even if they do not repent, until then I'll have to disagree with you.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Jordan, allow me to point out the scriptures in which we learn that forgiveness comes before restitution, in our lives.
In Leviticus 4 and 5 we learn about the differences between a sin offering and a guilt offering

Here's are the insturctions the Lord said to Moses, just for the sin and guilt offerings.

Starting at the begining of Leviticus chapter 4

LE 4:1 And the Lord said to Moses,
LE 4:2 Say to the children of Israel: These are the offerings of anyone who does wrong through error, doing any of the things which by the Lord's order are not to be done:
LE 4:3 If the chief priest by doing wrong becomes a cause of sin to the people, then let him give to the Lord for the sin which he has done, an ox, without any mark, for a sin-offering.
LE 4:4 And he is to take the ox to the door of the Tent of meeting before the Lord; and put his hand on its head and put it to death before the Lord.
LE 4:5 And the chief priest is to take some of its blood and take it to the Tent of meeting;
LE 4:6 And the priest is to put his finger in the blood, shaking drops of it before the Lord seven times, in front of the veil of the holy place.
LE 4:7 And the priest is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar on which perfume is burned before the Lord in the Tent of meeting, draining out all the rest of the blood of the ox at the base of the altar of burned offering which is at the door of the Tent of meeting.
LE 4:8 And he is to take away all the fat of the ox of the sin-offering; the fat covering the inside parts and all the fat of the inside parts,
LE 4:9 And the two kidneys, with the fat on them, which is by the top part of the legs, and the fat joining the liver and the kidneys, he is to take away,
LE 4:10 As it is taken from the ox of the peace-offering; and it is to be burned by the priest on the altar of burned offerings.
LE 4:11 And the skin of the ox and all its flesh, with its head and its legs and its inside parts and its waste,
LE 4:12 All the ox, he is to take away outside the circle of the tents into a clean place where the burned waste is put, and there it is to be burned on wood with fire.
LE 4:13 And if all the people of Israel do wrong, without anyone's knowledge; if they have done any of the things which by the Lord's order are not to be done, causing sin to come on them;
LE 4:14 When the sin which they have done comes to light, then let all the people give an ox for a sin-offering, and take it before the Tent of meeting.
LE 4:15 And let the chiefs of the people put their hands on its head before the Lord, and put the ox to death before the Lord.
LE 4:16 And the priest is to take some of its blood to the Tent of meeting;
LE 4:17 And put his finger in the blood, shaking drops of the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the veil.
LE 4:18 And he is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before the Lord in the Tent of meeting; and all the rest of the blood is to be drained out at the base of the altar of burned offering at the door of the Tent of meeting.
LE 4:19 And he is to take off all its fat, burning it on the altar.
LE 4:20 Let him do with the ox as he did with the ox of the sin-offering; and the priest will take away their sin and they will have forgiveness.
LE 4:21 Then let the ox be taken away outside the tent-circle, that it may be burned as the other ox was burned; it is the sin-offering for all the people.
LE 4:22 If a ruler does wrong, and in error does any of the things which, by the order of the Lord his God, are not to be done, causing sin to come on him;
LE 4:23 When the sin which he has done is made clear to him, let him give for his offering a goat, a male without any mark.
LE 4:24 And he is to put his hand on the head of the goat and put it to death in the place where they put to death the burned offering before the Lord: it is a sin-offering.
LE 4:25 And the priest is to take some of the blood of the offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burned offering, draining out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar of burned offering.
LE 4:26 And all the fat of it is to be burned on the altar like the fat of the peace-offering; and the priest will take away his sin and he will have forgiveness.
LE 4:27 And if any one of the common people does wrong in error, doing any of the things which the Lord has given orders are not to be done, causing sin to come on him;
LE 4:28 When the sin which he has done is made clear to him, then he is to give for his offering a goat, a female without any mark, for the sin which he has done.
LE 4:29 And he is to put his hand on the head of the sin-offering and put it to death in the place where they put to death the burned offering.
LE 4:30 And the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar of burned offering, and all the rest of its blood is to be drained out at the base of the altar.
LE 4:31 And let all its fat be taken away, as the fat is taken away from the peace-offerings, and let it be burned on the altar by the priest for a sweet smell to the Lord; and the priest will take away his sin and he will have forgiveness.
LE 4:32 And if he gives a lamb as his sin-offering, let it be a female without any mark;
LE 4:33 And he is to put his hand on the head of the offering and put it to death for a sin-offering in the place where they put to death the burned offering.
LE 4:34 And the priest is to take some of the blood of the offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burned offering, and all the rest of the blood is to be drained out at the base of the altar;
LE 4:35 And let him take away all its fat, as the fat is taken away from the lamb of the peace-offerings; and let it be burned by the priest on the altar among the offerings made by fire to the Lord: and the priest will take away his sin and he will have forgiveness.
LE 5:1 And if anyone does wrong by saying nothing when he is put under oath as a witness of something he has seen or had knowledge of, then he will be responsible:
LE 5:2 If anyone becomes unclean through touching unconsciously some unclean thing, such as the dead body of an unclean beast or of unclean cattle or of any unclean animal which goes flat on the earth, he will be responsible:
LE 5:3 Or if he becomes unclean through touching unconsciously any unclean thing of man, whatever it may be, when it is made clear to him he will be responsible:
LE 5:4 Or if anyone, without thought, takes an oath to do evil or to do good, whatever he says without thought, with an oath, having no knowledge of what he is doing; when it becomes clear to him, he will be responsible for any of these things.
LE 5:5 And whoever is responsible for any such sin, let him make a statement openly of his wrongdoing;
LE 5:6 And take to the Lord the offering for the wrong which he has done, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin-offering, and the priest will take away his sin.
LE 5:7 And if he has not money enough for a lamb, then let him give, for his offering to the Lord, two doves or two young pigeons; one for a sin-offering and one for a burned offering.
LE 5:8 And let him take them to the priest, who will first give the sin-offering, twisting off its head from its neck, but not cutting it in two;
LE 5:9 And he is to put drops of the blood of the offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood is to be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin-offering.
LE 5:10 And the second is for a burned offering, in agreement with the law; and the priest will take away his sin and he will have forgiveness.
LE 5:11 But if he has not enough money for two doves or two young pigeons, then let him give, for the sin he has done, the tenth part of an ephah of the best meal, for a sin-offering; let him put no oil on it, and no perfume, for it is a sin-offering.
LE 5:12 And let him come to the priest with it, and the priest will take some of it in his hand, to be burned on the altar as a sign, among the offerings of the Lord made by fire: it is a sin-offering.
LE 5:13 And the priest will take away his sin and he will have forgiveness: and the rest of the offering will be the priest's, in the same way as the meal offering.
LE 5:14 And the Lord said to Moses,
LE 5:15 If anyone is untrue, sinning in error in connection with the holy things of the Lord, let him take his offering to the Lord, a male sheep from the flock, without any mark, of the value fixed by you in silver by shekels, by the scale of the holy place.
LE 5:16 And he is to make payment to the priest for what he has done wrong in relation to the holy thing, together with a fifth part of its value in addition; and the priest will take away his sin by the sheep of his offering, and he will have forgiveness.
LE 5:17 And if anyone does wrong, and does any of the things which the Lord has given orders are not to be done, though he has no knowledge of it, still he is in the wrong and he is responsible.
LE 5:18 Let him come to the priest with a sheep, a male without any mark out of the flock, of the value fixed by you, as an offering for his error; and the priest will take away the sin which he did in error, and he will have forgiveness.
LE 5:19 It is an offering for his error: he is certainly responsible before the Lord.

To summarize the difference between a sin and guilt. A person offered a sin offering to God for his forgiveness. A person offered a guilt offering if he had sinned against God and man. The Key thing in a guilt offering was that a person only made the restitution after offering the guilt sacrifice.

As to your second second response to my post. In actuallity, yes we can do something God can't. We can be imperfect, in fact we absolutely are imperfect. We, in truth, can not at all forgive a person for their sin, that is something only God can do. What we can do is forgive them for what they did that had wronged us. God can not, because he is perfect, forgive a sin until a man/woman repents for the sin.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

What do those verses proove? If anything they agree with what I am saying!?!

Why would a person bring the sacrifice? Obviously because they know they need forgiveness. Someone who is unrepentant is not going to bring a sacrifice are they :-? The only thing that is different now a days is that when we come before God, Jesus is the sacrifice. And it is the same when we come to a brother whom we have offended, only then it is a three way transaction. But the sacrifice is still required because there has been sin.

I will say this again...We are told to forgive as Christ forgave, you said that Christ can't forgive without repentance, so then if we are to forgive like Christ forgave us then neither can we!

It also says in Matther 5 somewhere...
To FIRST be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

 

[Vic C.]

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.


I was JUST reading this passage.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.


I was JUST reading this passage.

Cool!
And what do you think about this subject?

 

[Vic C.]

Cool!
And what do you think about this subject?

I am still researching to see if this passage fits the topic at hand. But I will tell you one thing... Last night I had used my CD Bible Library to look up a Greek word. I didn't close the program, but instead, I minimized it. I now maximize it to read a commentary on these verses and lo and behold; the verse opened was (drumroll) Matthew 5:22!!! I was looking up the word Gehenna last night and it is in the very same verse of my Literal translation.

God is good! :-D

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

I am still researching to see if this passage fits the topic at hand. But I will tell you one thing... Last night I had used my CD Bible Library to look up a Greek word. I didn't close the program, but instead, I minimized it. I now maximize it to read a commentary on these verses and lo and behold; the verse opened was (drumroll) Matthew 5:22!!! I was looking up the word Gehenna last night and it is in the very same verse of my Literal translation.

God is good! :-D

That is really awesome.
I actually didn't even have that verse in there when I first posted. I thought about it a few minutes later and edited it in. That's really cool. Do you think it's a coincident?
Not I

 

[Blazin Bones]

...We are told to forgive as Christ forgave, you said that Christ can't forgive without repentance, so then if we are to forgive like Christ forgave us then neither can we!

Jordan, if you are going to be that literal, then no, and in fact we can't fogive anything at all. Christ could forgive because he was perfect, he was God. If you are going to be that literal the text, we can't forgive at all. If this were true, then why did Jesus even respond to Peter when he asked how many times we are to forgive others. If you take this text that literal, we can't forgive at all. You have to allow yourself to interpret the text, and make it relevant to your life. Some people throw his scripture way out of context, and thats when you get a wrong interpretation.

 

[IndianaEnoch]

And I hear what you are saying. I know people like to say that they forgive someone to take a load off their back. But I don't see it in scripture!
It is always dependent upon the person being repentant.

Show me a verse from scripture that says that you should forgive even if they do not repent, until then I'll have to disagree with you.

Johm 20:23
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Perhaps this one, but it does not completly met you rquestion because I think your question is wrong. Forgiveness and being forgiven are two different things. Forgiveness does not wait or depend on repentance. Christ did while we were still sinners, unrepentant. But being forgiven would certianly require that one repents. Forgiveness is a noun, but forgiven is a verb which implys an action.

So I say there canbe forgiveness with out repentance, but one cannot be forgiven without repentance.

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Jordan, if you are going to be that literal, then no, and in fact we can't fogive anything at all. Christ could forgive because he was perfect, he was God. If you are going to be that literal the text, we can't forgive at all. If this were true, then why did Jesus even respond to Peter when he asked how many times we are to forgive others. If you take this text that literal, we can't forgive at all. You have to allow yourself to interpret the text, and make it relevant to your life. Some people throw his scripture way out of context, and thats when you get a wrong interpretation.

The scripture your talking about in regards to Peter is one of the ones I quoted from Matt. 18. Jesus says that he should forgive his brother seventy times seven, and then he tells the story of the unrepentant sinner. My point was there that, the unrepentant sinner was not willing to forgive the one who owed him, even when he asked. And that we are not to with hold forgiveness when it is asked for.

I honestly don't understand how you can get from the bible that we cannot forgive, if we take the text litterally as we ought. And yes I take everything the bible says litterally! You should too. O understand that you can't take things like parables litterally, but for everything else, you can. That text is as relevent for me today as it was for Peter back then. You can't change the text to make it relevent for you!? When you are reading scripture you can't just ask how it appies to your life today. You must realize to whom it was written, why, under what circumstances...

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Forgiveness and being forgiven are two different things. Forgiveness does not wait or depend on repentance. Christ did while we were still sinners, unrepentant. But being forgiven would certianly require that one repents. Forgiveness is a noun, but forgiven is a verb which implys an action.

So I say there canbe forgiveness with out repentance, but one cannot be forgiven without repentance.

I don't see that in scripture, sorry.

Let me give you an analogy, I'm not the best at these...but I'll give it a shot.

Okay, say I make this marvolous meal for my brother, and he doesn't eat it, so it stays on the counter all night, and doesn't get eaten.
What benifit does that meal do to anyone? Does it benifit me? Does it benifit my brother? No it doesn't.

I see it the same way as forgiveness. What benifit is it, if it is not recieved? I don't think it benifits you, because I don't think that forgiveness is a one-way thing, it must be recieved.

 

[Vic C.]

Perhaps this one, but it does not completly met you rquestion because I think your question is wrong. Forgiveness and being forgiven are two different things. Forgiveness does not wait or depend on repentance. Christ did while we were still sinners, unrepentant. But being forgiven would certianly require that one repents. Forgiveness is a noun, but forgiven is a verb which implys an action.

Hmm, thanks IE…maybe this is why I have been reluctant to post an opinion.

When you are reading scripture you can't just ask how it appies to your life today. You must realize to whom it was written, why, under what circumstances...

Both profound and true, I suppose. Especially the last statement.

I’m going to do what I do best…twist the subject a bit. 8-)

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What just happened here? :-? :

 

[Jordanthedutchy]

Thanks for bringing that up Vic.
This is what I believe happened. The convict admitted His sin."He has done nothing wrong, but we are here justly" (rough translation)
And He admitted who Jesus was. "Remember me in paradise" Obviously He realized who Christ was otherwise he would not have siad that.

So He was forgiven his sin and was with Jesus in paradise when he died.