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Forgiveness without repentance?

Can we forgive, before there is repentance?


  • Total voters
    3
J

Jordanthedutchy

Guest
Charlotte said:
Hi Jordan,

Christ's teaching was different, but He still adhered to the Law. Christ's early message was of law, not grace. Christ's message was much stricter than that of Moses. Christ magnified the Law and made it even more hard to keep. The reason He did this is to show that man cannot keep the law perfectly. He made it so strict no one could keep it. The reason Christ did this was to show that law increased peoples' transgressions and show that no one can gain salvation through keeping laws. He did this in order to direct people to the need of a Saviour. Christ poured laws upon laws.

So you are saying that Christs teachings are no longer valid because he was under the law? I don't believe that Christ was under the law, he submitted himself to the authority of that day, but he was not under the law. The law was for sinners, not for God.

When we are forgiven our sins, and believe in Christ than our whole life is Changed. We are sinners, yes but our desires change. We desire to know HIM to please HIM. And THROUGH Christ, the things that he taught are attainable. What he taught was not a set of rules that we should try to obey. But rather I believe that they are a discription of what we will become if we are truly seeking him. So, turning the other cheek, loving our neighbors, lending with no ruturn, not worrying about tomorrow, not committing adultery by looking at a woman... are no longer unattainable.


(Matt. 5:23-24) "Therefore if thou bring thy gift [sacrifice] to the alter and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift [sacrifice] before thee alter, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift [sacrifice].

Jesus taught SACRIFICE.
Of course Jesus taught sacrifice! We are saved because of sacrifice! His sacrifice. Granted we are not to sacrifice lambs anymore. But maybe now we should not bring our 'sacrifice of praise' to the Lord if we have an offence towards a brother.

Christ also ordered the payment of the Temple tribute that Moses demanded. (Matt 17:24-27) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He said YES. (Verse 27) Jesus told them to "get the money out of a fish and take and give them for YOU AND ME".

This was the tax of the day to the government, just as we are to do today. Not Temple tribute.


Christ taught circumcision. Only much later did the apostles come to understand it was unnecessary.
Did Christ TEACH circumcision? I was not aware of this. We as believers are the circumcised, we are all Israel(The chosen)


Christ made Moses law even more strict, Moses allowed divorce, Jesus said if you even looked on a man or woman to lust after her you sinned.
Who is more the law here Christ or Moses. Divorce has always been wrong, and Jesus says that it is wrong. Therefore it is.

Please don't discount the validity of Christs teaching. Why would he teach all these new things for three years if as soon as he died we were to discount them? Keeping the commandments are possible only through Jesus, other than that the law is unattainable. The law was given to show our need of a Savior, to show that we can't do it on our own.
 
C

Charlotte

Guest
Jordanthedutchy said:
Charlotte said:
Hi Jordan,

Christ's teaching was different, but He still adhered to the Law. Christ's early message was of law, not grace. Christ's message was much stricter than that of Moses. Christ magnified the Law and made it even more hard to keep. The reason He did this is to show that man cannot keep the law perfectly. He made it so strict no one could keep it. The reason Christ did this was to show that law increased peoples' transgressions and show that no one can gain salvation through keeping laws. He did this in order to direct people to the need of a Saviour. Christ poured laws upon laws.

So you are saying that Christs teachings are no longer valid because he was under the law? I don't believe that Christ was under the law, he submitted himself to the authority of that day, but he was not under the law. The law was for sinners, not for God.

When we are forgiven our sins, and believe in Christ than our whole life is Changed. We are sinners, yes but our desires change. We desire to know HIM to please HIM. And THROUGH Christ, the things that he taught are attainable. What he taught was not a set of rules that we should try to obey. But rather I believe that they are a discription of what we will become if we are truly seeking him. So, turning the other cheek, loving our neighbors, lending with no ruturn, not worrying about tomorrow, not committing adultery by looking at a woman... are no longer unattainable.


(Matt. 5:23-24) "Therefore if thou bring thy gift [sacrifice] to the alter and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift [sacrifice] before thee alter, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift [sacrifice].

Jesus taught SACRIFICE.
Of course Jesus taught sacrifice! We are saved because of sacrifice! His sacrifice. Granted we are not to sacrifice lambs anymore. But maybe now we should not bring our 'sacrifice of praise' to the Lord if we have an offence towards a brother.

[quote:90160]Christ also ordered the payment of the Temple tribute that Moses demanded. (Matt 17:24-27) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He said YES. (Verse 27) Jesus told them to "get the money out of a fish and take and give them for YOU AND ME".

This was the tax of the day to the government, just as we are to do today. Not Temple tribute.


Christ taught circumcision. Only much later did the apostles come to understand it was unnecessary.
Did Christ TEACH circumcision? I was not aware of this. We as believers are the circumcised, we are all Israel(The chosen)


Christ made Moses law even more strict, Moses allowed divorce, Jesus said if you even looked on a man or woman to lust after her you sinned.
Who is more the law here Christ or Moses. Divorce has always been wrong, and Jesus says that it is wrong. Therefore it is.

Please don't discount the validity of Christs teaching. Why would he teach all these new things for three years if as soon as he died we were to discount them? Keeping the commandments are possible only through Jesus, other than that the law is unattainable. The law was given to show our need of a Savior, to show that we can't do it on our own.[/quote:90160]


Hi Jordon,

I am not discounting the validity of Christ's teaching but even Jesus Himself said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"(Matt.15:24).

The law was our Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. They were elementary teachings, for children. Jesus had to die before any ratification of the New Covenant came into effect. He was showing us the way to Himself. In a way Christ was the second Moses (Deut. 18:15-19).

The Holy Spirit was not given until after Christ's crucifixion, the Hol;y Spirit was with the disciples but was not in them until after the resurrection. Peter was not even converted (Luke 22:32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and WHEN THOU ART CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethern. The Holy Spirit had to dwell in a person in order for them to be a Christian. (Rom. 8 :9) "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His". Only the shedding of Christ's blood and resurrection could salvation be given and not before. Christ's message was was only for the Israelites (Matt. 10:5-6) Jesus told His disciples to "go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus was the conclusion to the Mosaic law.

Even Paul realized that Christ's ministry was only to Israel. (Rom. 15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ WAS A MINISTER OF THE CIRCUMCISED FOR
THE TRUTH OF GOD, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.

When Christ said "only those who kept the commandments could be saved, (Mark 10:17-22) that was the rule at that time, when the Old Covenant relationship with God was all that was available for the Jew's. Because Christ hadn't died yet for the sins of the world.

Also Jesus prayed while on the tree, "Father FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Charlotte
 
J

Jordanthedutchy

Guest
charlotte:

Hi, I've talked to you about this whole thing with the validity of Christ. Now I believe that we are getting a little off topic, if you want to continue this you should start a new thread or something.

But lets stick to the topic at hand

Thanks
 
C

Charlotte

Guest
Jordon,

People were using the sayings of Christ to show that they had to repent before they were forgiven and I was showing that at that time everyone was still under the law of Moses and you have to know who scripture is speaking to. What, where, when, I always try to ask myself this when reading God's word. What applied to Israel doesn't apply to us and so forth.

When Jesus was hanging on the tree, He said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

I will cease to reply to this unless you have a question.

Charlotte
 
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