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Free Will is a Fallen Will

atpollard

Member
FREE WILL: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.”

Calvinists, including this one, generally believe in ‘free will’ as the ability to act at one’s own discretion. In other words, people are not robots that can only do what they are told and they are free to do what they want. Where we differ from our anti-Calvinism brothers and sisters is that we do not believe in “libertarian free will”.

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL: “our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.”

An example of free will in action is a homeless drug addict. They can determine where they will sleep and which house they will rob and which arm to inject the needle in. What they cannot choose is to stop taking drugs because they are a slave to their addiction. That addiction controls their mind and body and eliminates some choices from their ability to make. They have not lost free will, but their free will is not free of all outside influences and, thus, libertarian.

[1 Corinthians 2:14-16 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

  1. Is an unsaved man a natural man or a spiritual man?
  2. Does an unsaved man have the mind of Christ?
 
It is ironic that the people that are so anxious to discuss the free will of man to make choices in every other topic, are so silent in the topic created to address the issue head on. :shrug
 
It is ironic that the people that are so anxious to discuss the free will of man to make choices in every other topic, are so silent in the topic created to address the issue head on. :shrug
I agree free will, is a difficult issue to discuss.
I would also agree in a few real ways man cannot choose God, because to be born of the Spirit is a spiritual, God given reality. Without conviction of sin and given the gift of repentance how can one repent.

The apostles seem to imply the ability to repent is Gods gift.
Another issue is how can one know we are lost until we touch that which brings us a sense of being home or found. If one cannot chose to be saved, only when one is saved can one choose to become lost.

It strikes me that the key issue in our walk is an open heart, one willing to listen or a hard heart deceived by sinful desires. With a hard heart nothing gets through. I have experienced this discussing spiritual realities with believers who claim to know Jesus but are simply not stirred at all by issues of love and hurt which are common to life and our walk in Christ. I have witnessed to people who literally opened like a flower to my sharing, and listened to Jesus and His words. Equally others to whom the same words of life bounce off them like a drop of water off a ducks back.

So I see unless the soil is ready and good and the word sown, nothing can happen. But once sown, the individual can count the cost as too high, or the issues of the heart to difficult, and they believe there is a choice, and would rather choose to ignore the issues and return to the world.

So to me free will only exists in a real eternal sense in the hands of saved believers. But in another perspective the elect will always walk true to their calling, except only the Lord knows from eternity who are His elect.

One could take the view the hard heart, like the path in the parable of the seed and the sower, could choose to accept the seed. But if you are a hard path, you cannot become good soil on ones own, there maybe life experiences of crisis or listening where an opportunity arises. As a sharer all we can do is share and pray that the Lord will use our sharing.

So I think some of the issues are perspectives of how one represents the different issues, but does not change the reality of what they are.
 
FREE WILL: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.”

Calvinists, including this one, generally believe in ‘free will’ as the ability to act at one’s own discretion. In other words, people are not robots that can only do what they are told and they are free to do what they want. Where we differ from our anti-Calvinism brothers and sisters is that we do not believe in “libertarian free will”.



  1. Is an unsaved man a natural man or a spiritual man?
  2. Does an unsaved man have the mind of Christ?

  • Is an unsaved man a natural man or a spiritual man?

That depends on what you mean by “unsaved”


Never saved or no longer saved?


If you mean never saved, then the answer is: natural.


However the passage you quoted is not about saved or unsaved but rather it’s about carnally minded people vs spiritually minded people.


IOW, Christians can be either spiritually minded or carnally minded.


What the common denominator with both is they both have a free will.

To choose to do good or evil.




JLB
 
  • Is an unsaved man a natural man or a spiritual man?
That depends on what you mean by “unsaved”
Never saved or no longer saved?
If you mean never saved, then the answer is: natural.
However the passage you quoted is not about saved or unsaved but rather it’s about carnally minded people vs spiritually minded people.
IOW, Christians can be either spiritually minded or carnally minded.
What the common denominator with both is they both have a free will.
To choose to do good or evil.
JLB
Carnally minded people can (and do) call themselves Christians, but I am unconvinced that a “Carnally-minded Christian“ is not a logical impossibility like a “married bachelor”. I read that we have put on the mind of Christ, that God has renewed our heart and mind, and that we no longer live as the world lives. Having a carnal mind may be like having a dead faith ... it cannot save anyone because it is dead.
 
Carnally minded people can (and do) call themselves Christians, but I am unconvinced that a “Carnally-minded Christian“ is not a logical impossibility like a “married bachelor”. I read that we have put on the mind of Christ, that God has renewed our heart and mind, and that we no longer live as the world lives. Having a carnal mind may be like having a dead faith ... it cannot save anyone because it is dead.


Paul calls carnally minded Christians, immature.

“Babes in Christ”.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:4



And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:4


JLB
 
FREE WILL: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.”

Calvinists, including this one, generally believe in ‘free will’ as the ability to act at one’s own discretion. In other words, people are not robots that can only do what they are told and they are free to do what they want. Where we differ from our anti-Calvinism brothers and sisters is that we do not believe in “libertarian free will”.

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL: “our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.”

An example of free will in action is a homeless drug addict. They can determine where they will sleep and which house they will rob and which arm to inject the needle in. What they cannot choose is to stop taking drugs because they are a slave to their addiction. That addiction controls their mind and body and eliminates some choices from their ability to make. They have not lost free will, but their free will is not free of all outside influences and, thus, libertarian.

[1 Corinthians 2:14-16 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

  1. Is an unsaved man a natural man or a spiritual man?
  2. Does an unsaved man have the mind of Christ?
This is why links to the internet are not really supposed to be posted here.

You posted what YOU liked about the above, your O.P.

Here is the entire article...we could go over it for each part and be here for the next few months.

Maybe we should use the bible instead?


...............................................................................................................

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.

Compatibilist vs. libertarian views of free will
The Compatibilist believes that free will is "compatible" with determinism (as in the sovereignty of God). The incompatibilist says that the free will is "incompatible" with determinism. The Libertarian is an incompatibilist who consequently rejects any determinism associated with the sovereignty of God. Hence, Libertarian Free Will is necessarily associated with both Open Theism, which maintains that God does not foreknow or predetermine the free choices of man, and Arminianism, which admits that God in his omniscience foresees man's free choices and reacts accordingly. Libertarian freedom is the general view of liberal Protestantism and a growing number of evangelicals.

The Compatibilist view - This view affirms that man freely chooses what God has determined that he will chose. In this way, the idea that God is in charge, and the idea that man can be held responsible for his actions are compatible ideas. Free will is affected by human nature and man cannot choose contrary to his nature and desires. This view acknowledges man as a free moral agent who freely makes choices. But due to the effects of the fall, as contained in the doctrine of total depravity, man's nature is corrupted such that he cannot choose contrary to his fallen nature -- He cannot discern spiritual things or turn to God in faith apart from divine intervention.

The Libertarian view - According to libertarianism, the idea that God causes men to act in a certain way, but that man has free will in acting that way is logically false. Free means uncaused. Man has free will, and his decisions are influenced, but not caused. God limits the actions of men, but not their mind or will. Man has the ability to turn to God in Christ and sincerely ask for help, selfishly perhaps, apart from specific (special) divine enablement. According to Arminianism, God, in his freedom, not only sets a condition on salvation and wills only to save those who would ask Him to rescue them. God, then, predestines those who He "foreknew" to salvation. Or, according to Open Theism, God is anxiously waiting to see what each person will do, for he cannot know ahead of time what the choice might be.

Objections
\1) Causality — If causes are understood as conditions prior to an effect that guarantee an effect, and all events have causes, then it follows that all events were preceded by conditions that guaranteed those events. But this is the same as saying all events are determined. Since the choices of humans are events, it follows that the choices of humans are determined.

\2) Responsibility — Rather than salvage human responsibility, some maintain that libertarian freedom destroys it. If our choices have no causes, in what sense are they our choices? Is it any more agreeable to reason to hold humans responsible for choices they didn't cause than to hold them responsible for choices that were caused and thus determined?

\3) God's Freedom — Some have maintained libertarian freedom on the basis that all things done of necessity are not worthy of praise or blame. But what are we to think of God's actions? We believe that God does good, and that God cannot do evil. Does God's moral inability to do evil make His good actions unpraiseworthy? If God must do good, is He then unpraiseworthy? Some have said that God must do good because God's nature determines His choices. God is still free, some say, because God can act in accordance with His choices, but God's choices are determined by His nature. If God's choices are determined, and God is worthy of praise, this is a clear case, some say, of actions that are determined and thus necessary while also being morally praiseworthy.
 
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Paul calls carnally minded Christians, immature.
“Babes in Christ”.
I do not think that is precisely accurate. It is very close, but there are subtle differences between being “carnal” and “carnally minded“ and a “babe in Christ”. For example ...

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
Paul does not actually say that they were carnal in this verse, he says that he could not speak to them as “spiritual people” and so Paul had to speak to them as he would speak to “carnal” people (who could very well represent the unsaved) and as Paul speaks to “babes in Christ”. This does not actually say that they were either “carnal” or “babes in Christ”, only that Paul spoke to them the same way that Paul speaks to the “carnal” and to “babes in Christ”. The critical point here is not a teaching that some Christians are spiritual and other Christians are carnal, the point is that these Christians are not ready for mature teaching because of how they are acting.

For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
Envy, strife and divisions are not Fruit of the Spirit as far as I remember from any list. If they are “acts of the sinful nature” then they are legitimate reason for these people to take a step back and make sure that they are building on the True Foundation and not following after a ”dead faith”. In any event, Paul is not speaking of being “carnally minded” in this verse, but of being “carnal” in their behavior ... not like Saints, but like “mere men”.

If it walks like a sinner and talks like a sinner, then maybe it isn’t really a saint.
 
This is why links to the internet are not really supposed to be posted here.

You posted what YOU liked about the above, your O.P.

Here is the entire article...we could go over it for each part and be here for the next few months.

Maybe we should use the bible instead?
Irrelevant bunny trail. I posted a definition of “Libertarian Free Will” and “Free Will” because most conversations quickly result in people talking past each other because everyone chooses their own personal definition of “Free Will”. Discussion quickly turns to argument as each person applies one definition to their use of terms and another definition to others when they use those terms. You wanted to talk about Free Will, so I included definitions of the terms to aid in understanding what I meant when I used those terms.

If you want to spend months reviewing some website that appeared on a Google Search for a definition of “Libertine Free Will” ... knock yourself out. I presented what I believe about Free Will and only used that site for a concise definition.
 
Maybe we should use the bible instead?
Like this ...

[1 Corinthians 2:14-16 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
 
Irrelevant bunny trail. I posted a definition of “Libertarian Free Will” and “Free Will” because most conversations quickly result in people talking past each other because everyone chooses their own personal definition of “Free Will”. Discussion quickly turns to argument as each person applies one definition to their use of terms and another definition to others when they use those terms. You wanted to talk about Free Will, so I included definitions of the terms to aid in understanding what I meant when I used those terms.

If you want to spend months reviewing some website that appeared on a Google Search for a definition of “Libertine Free Will” ... knock yourself out. I presented what I believe about Free Will and only used that site for a concise definition.
No A,,,
I said we SHOULD NOT be posting links to the internet.
I said WE SHOULD be posting biblical scripture and NOT links to some article or other.

I said that you posted ONLY what you wanted instead of the entire article because it did not suit you apparently.

Please try to understand me when I speak to you.
I'll be happy to speak to you about free will in the A.M.
It's 1:20 a.m. here.

All of "calvinism" is based on free will.
If that fails,,,calvinism fails.

So, yes, I think it's a very important topic....
 
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Like this ...

[1 Corinthians 2:14-16 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Sure. pre being born again and post being born again.

We were all natural men at one time.
Now some of us are spiritual persons.
 
Paul does not actually say that they were carnal in this verse, he says that he could not speak to them as “spiritual people” and so Paul had to speak to them as he would speak to “carnal” people (who could very well represent the unsaved) and as Paul speaks to “babes in Christ”. This does not actually say that they were either “carnal” or “babes in Christ”, only that Paul spoke to them the same way that Paul speaks to the “carnal” and to “babes in Christ”. The critical point here is not a teaching that some Christians are spiritual and other Christians are carnal, the point is that these Christians are not ready for mature teaching because of how they are acting.


Yes Paul says they were carnal.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:1


I just don’t know why you would deny what Paul so plainly says. :shrug


Paul plainly says they are carnal people, not spiritual people.

  • could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal

  • for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?



Paul plainly says they are brethren.
  • And I, brethren, could not speak to you


Paul plainly says they are babes in Christ.


  • as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.






JLB
 
Yes Paul says they were carnal.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:1

I just don’t know why you would deny what Paul so plainly says. :shrug
Because I read ALL of the words, including “I ... could not SPEAK to you as ...” which told me that Paul is not directly describing their state, but is creating a comparison of HOW HE SPOKE TO THEM. :wall
 
Because I read ALL of the words, including “I ... could not SPEAK to you as ...” which told me that Paul is not directly describing their state, but is creating a comparison of HOW HE SPOKE TO THEM. :wall


Please include all the words of the scripture we are discussing.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:1

Paul called these carnal Christians, brethren.

Babes “in Christ”.

Your “argument” is with scripture. Babes “in Christ”, is clear.


Paul then reiterated that these brethren, babes in Christ, were carnal.

Not spiritual people, but carnal people; brothers nonetheless, but carnal.


  • could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal


Paul didn’t dismiss these immature brothers in Christ as heathen or outsiders, but as “babes in Christ”, which is simply a loving way of saying they were immature.


Why did Paul label these immature brothers as carnal?

Because they were divisive in their attitude and beliefs, following man rather than Christ and His teachings.


for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
1 Corinthians 3:3-5


Just exactly why those who follow the teachings of Calvin, are always arguing in the face of scripture, exalting their man made beliefs against the knowledge of God.


You can try and label “babes in Christ” as unbelievers, as “self proclaimed Christians”, all you like, that is your choice because you have a freewill, but your only kicking against the goads.


Please consider these things.



JLB
 
Just exactly why those who follow the teachings of Calvin
Not Calvin. Scripture as affirmed at the Synod of Dort and again in the London Confession and over and over by every generation that has taken up the cause of supporting the Sovereignty of God over the power of the will of man.

Mostly Romans and Ephesians, just as a point of fact, since they deal with the salvific relationship between God and man more than most other books.
 
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