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Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

2nd Timothy Group said:
What is really cool is that the Lord has always had an Eternal Plan.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NLT - "God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

God always knew what He was going to do, from beginning to end. And why? We are on display to the unseen Rulers and Authorities of the Heavenly Realms. We are currently a demonstration of God's Almighty Power.

That's pretty incredible, isn't it?!
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It was not His purpose for man to be born of flesh
 
n2thelight said:
It was not His purpose for man to be born of flesh
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I'm curious . . . how do you address Ephesians 3:10-11? So far, you've ignored not only the passage in your own reading time, but you're also ignoring it here, right in front of "everyone." Are you sure that's the path to take?
 
n2thelight said:
Can't do that ,as we ALL are not chosen ,it's like that's the difference in freewill ,the Elect don't have it ,they were already justified . Imagine standing before God and asking Him why didn't He interfere with me as you did with them , God is fair . A full 1/3 of God's children followed satan during the overthrow attempt,. At that point in time God could had and would had been just in killing satan and all those that followed him ,but in His mercy He came up with a plan, us being born of women with no remembrance of that age
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A couple of comments on the above...

1. You comment that we are not all chosen. Right. Do I sound like a universalist to you?
WE ARE ALL CHOSEN....all the saved - as by you, have all been chosen.

I asked for a couple of verses that state this.


2. You say the elect do not have free will.
Then why do we all sin, even after being "chosen"?


And you of the reformed faith love to state how God is fair.
Could you please explain how ANYONE, let alone God, the creator of MORALITY,
could see 3 people drowning,
save only 1,
and then say he did it out of fairness.

And please remember to show us, biblically, how God does the choosing in salvation economy.
Thanks.
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
What is really cool is that the Lord has always had an Eternal Plan.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NLT - "God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

God always knew what He was going to do, from beginning to end. And why? We are on display to the unseen Rulers and Authorities of the Heavenly Realms. We are currently a demonstration of God's Almighty Power.

That's pretty incredible, isn't it?!
Click to expand...
What's the problem with

Ephesians 3:10-11
10God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
11This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.


God had a plan from the beginning.
This plan would be carried out through Jesus Christ.
It was a plan not easy to understand...
See Ephesians 3:3-5
3As I briefly wrote earlier, God himself revealed his mysterious plan to me.
4As you read what I have written, you will understand my insight into this plan regarding Christ.
5God did not reveal it to previous generations, but now by his Spirit he has revealed it to his holy apostles and prophets.

The plan was to allow Gentiles into the salvation plan of God.
Ephesians 3:6
 
wondering said:
A couple of comments on the above...

1. You comment that we are not all chosen. Right. Do I sound like a universalist to you?
WE ARE ALL CHOSEN....all the saved - as by you, have all been chosen.

I asked for a couple of verses that state this.


2. You say the elect do not have free will.
Then why do we all sin, even after being "chosen"?


And you of the reformed faith love to state how God is fair.
Could you please explain how ANYONE, let alone God, the creator of MORALITY,
could see 3 people drowning,
save only 1,
and then say he did it out of fairness.

And please remember to show us, biblically, how God does the choosing in salvation economy.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
1. I really don't care what you sound like and all those whom are saved and or became saved are NOT chosen .

Dude on the cross beside Christ ,wasn't chosen , but he chose at that time to believe and he was saved .

2. Didn't say they Elect did not sin, as all have sinned and come short. Paul would be the best example I could give you of free will versus God's interceding . He ,Paul was already justified before he was even born of women.

2a Before I answer the drowning question , do you understand the Heaven and earth age before the one we are in now?
 
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'God's plan of salvation is for everyone. Jesus died for the 'whomsoever', including the thief on the cross and Adam and Eve. Just do not "Adam and Eve it."
.
 
n2thelight said:
1. I really don't care what you sound like and all those whom are saved and or became saved are NOT chosen .

Dude on the cross beside Christ ,wasn't chosen , but he chose at that time to believe and he was saved .

2. Didn't say they Elect did not sin, as all have sinned and come short. Paul would be the best example I could give you of free will versus God's interceding . He ,Paul was already justified before he was even born of women.

2a Before I answer the drowning question , do you understand the Heaven and earth age before the one we are in now?
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Justified means made right with God.
You say Paul was justified before he was born.
So, he was justified, made right with God, all the time he was murdering Christians?

I'd answer your question 2a but I don't really know what you're asking.
The heaven age: Do you mean before man was created?
The earth age: No idea...
 
wondering said:
Justified means made right with God.
You say Paul was justified before he was born.
So, he was justified, made right with God, all the time he was murdering Christians?
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justified is correct

where did or how does any one come to the conclusion justified before birth? i have read a lot stuff but this is crazy
 
jerry63935 said:
justified is correct

where did or how does any one come to the conclusion justified before birth? i have read a lot stuff but this is crazy
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Not so crazy at all:

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Psalm 22:9-10 NKJV - "But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust [while] on My mother's breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God."

Luke 1:15 NKJV - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
What is really cool is that the Lord has always had an Eternal Plan.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NLT - "God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

God always knew what He was going to do, from beginning to end. And why? We are on display to the unseen Rulers and Authorities of the Heavenly Realms. We are currently a demonstration of God's Almighty Power.

That's pretty incredible, isn't it?!
Click to expand...
The question is who wants to volunteer to be a participant or not?
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
Not so crazy at all:

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Psalm 22:9-10 NKJV - "But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust [while] on My mother's breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God."

Luke 1:15 NKJV - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."
Click to expand...
Luk 1:15-16 KJV For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

This is the angel of the Lord talking to Zacharias about the birth of John the Baptist.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Psa 22:9-10 KJV But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

This is David remembering God's goodness to him. Thou hast made me; and hast guided and defended me from my earliest infancy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exo 33:19 KJV And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

This is the Lord speaking to Moses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I cannot see justification here.
.
 
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Cooper said:
Luk 1:15-16 KJV For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

This is the angel of the Lord talking to Zacharias about the birth of John the Baptist.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Psa 22:9-10 KJV But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

This is about Jesus remembering his life on earth in the Old Testament. Amazing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exo 33:19 KJV And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

This is the Lord speaking to Moses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I cannot see justification here.
.
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I hear what you're saying. However, and I'm hoping that God has taught me these things through His Spirit, but no one receives the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Purified by Christ of the Adamic Curse. No one can receive the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Justified.
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
I hear what you're saying. However, and I'm hoping that God has taught me these things through His Spirit, but no one receives the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Purified by Christ of the Adamic Curse. No one can receive the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Justified.
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This comes after we have surrendered our life to God and washed in the blood of the lamb.
.
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
I hear what you're saying. However, and I'm hoping that God has taught me these things through His Spirit, but no one receives the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Purified by Christ of the Adamic Curse. No one can receive the Indwelling Holy Spirit without first being Justified.
Click to expand...
That second sentence is what we doubt. There are a number of reasons to doubt what you wrote, not the least of which is it doesn’t match scripture but requires you to embellish adding to what the writer actually said. That God chose a few from conception doesn’t say that their sin was justified before committed.

Case in point, Psalm 22 was written by David. David sinned 2x times really big in his life that I recall. Both times he was severely punished. Why if he was forgiven in utero? Why did God never tell a single individual that their future suns are already forgiven if this is do as you believe?
 
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