Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[GodsGrace]

All good , let's go to the scripture

Gonna give you all scripture on this , so it may be a tad long anything you wanna discuss further within these verses is welcomed . Let's start at the beginning

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. genesis1 Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." was 1961 hayah hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use. void 922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV - emptiness, void. The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Now let's zoom to Job Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?" This is God telling Job when He created this earth , are you a morning star and a son of God ? Can you not see where we were when this happened ? So now let's go to the topic Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." When did He know Jeremiah , and please don't tell me it's because He knows everything , as He just showed you in Job all were created at the same time . So what happened ? for that ,let's go to Revelations Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Job told you who the stars were , the above is the reason we are born of woman , because 1/3 of Gods children followed satan Think I made that simple enough , but as I said , we can go deeper

How are you using the posting page?
You're doing something strange and it makes it difficult to reply to you.
How do you post the verses onto a page?

 

[Cooper]

How are you using the posting page?
You're doing something strange and it makes it difficult to reply to you.
How do you post the verses onto a page?

Perhaps n2 attached a file? See below the text box.
.

 

[Cooper]

How are you using the posting page?
You're doing something strange and it makes it difficult to reply to you.
How do you post the verses onto a page?

This might throw a spanner into the works, or it might explain predestination?

Jer_1:5
Knew thee; i.e. took notice of thee; virtually equivalent to selected thee (comp. Gen_39:6; Amo_3:2; Isa_58:3; Psa_144:3). Observe, the predestination of individuals is a familiar idea in the Old Testament (comp. Isa_45:4; Isa_49:1; Psa_139:16). It was also familiar to the Assyrians: King Assurba-nipal declares at the opening of his ’ Annals ’ that the gods "in the body of his mother have made (him) to rule Assyria." Familiar, too, to the great family of religious reformers. For, as Dean Milman has truly observed, "No Pelagian ever has or ever will work a religious revolution. He who is destined for such a work must have a full conviction that God is acting directly, immediately, consciously, and therefore with irresistible power, upon him and through him He who is not predestined, who does not declare, who does not believe himself predestined as the author of a great religions movement, he in whom God is not manifestly, sensibly, avowedly working out his pre-established designs, will never be saint or reformer". Sanctified thee; i.e. set thee apart for holy uses. Ordained; rather, appointed. Unto the nations. Jeremiah’s prophecies, in fact, have reference not only to Israel, but to the peoples in relation to Israel (verse 10; Jer_25:15, Jer_25:16; 46-49; Jer_50:1-46; Jer_51:1-64?).

(Pulpit Bible)
.

 

[Cooper]

I apologise for interrupting. You only need to say, and I will not do it again. However, here goes :-

Rev_12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth; draweth (Revised Version). Not the stars with which the woman is crowned (see Rev_12:1), but other stars. In describing the vast power of the devil, St. John seems to allude to the tremendous result of his (Satans) rebellious conduct in heaven, in effecting the fall of other angels with himself (Jud Joh_1:6). The seer does not here interrupt his narrative to explain the point, but returns to it after verse 6, and there describes briefly the origin and cause of the enmity of the devil towards God. The third part (as in Rev_8:7, et seq.) signifies a considerable number, but not the larger part. And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born;
which was about to be delivered, that when she was delivered, he might devour her child (Revised Version). A graphic picture of what is true of Christ himself of the Church, both Jewish and Christian, and of every individual member of the Church. This is another example of the personal history of Christ being repeated in the history of his Church. The devil, in the person of Herod, attempts to prevent the salvation of the world; through Pharaoh he endeavours to crush the chosen people of God, through whom the Messiah was to bless all the earth; by means of the power of Rome he labours to exterminate the infant Church of Christ.

(Pulpit Bible)
.

 

[GodsGrace]

How are you using the posting page?
You're doing something strange and it makes it difficult to reply to you.
How do you post the verses onto a page?

n2thelight

 

[GodsGrace]

I apologise for interrupting. You only need to say, and I will not do it again. However, here goes :-

Rev_12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth; draweth (Revised Version). Not the stars with which the woman is crowned (see Rev_12:1), but other stars. In describing the vast power of the devil, St. John seems to allude to the tremendous result of his (Satans) rebellious conduct in heaven, in effecting the fall of other angels with himself (Jud Joh_1:6). The seer does not here interrupt his narrative to explain the point, but returns to it after verse 6, and there describes briefly the origin and cause of the enmity of the devil towards God. The third part (as in Rev_8:7, et seq.) signifies a considerable number, but not the larger part. And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born;
which was about to be delivered, that when she was delivered, he might devour her child (Revised Version). A graphic picture of what is true of Christ himself of the Church, both Jewish and Christian, and of every individual member of the Church. This is another example of the personal history of Christ being repeated in the history of his Church. The devil, in the person of Herod, attempts to prevent the salvation of the world; through Pharaoh he endeavours to crush the chosen people of God, through whom the Messiah was to bless all the earth; by means of the power of Rome he labours to exterminate the infant Church of Christ.

(Pulpit Bible)
.

What are you interrupting??
This is an open board...anyone could post at any time !

 

[GodsGrace]

All good , let's go to the scripture

Gonna give you all scripture on this , so it may be a tad long anything you wanna discuss further within these verses is welcomed . Let's start at the beginning

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. genesis1 Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." was 1961 hayah hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use. void 922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV - emptiness, void. The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Now let's zoom to Job Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?" This is God telling Job when He created this earth , are you a morning star and a son of God ? Can you not see where we were when this happened ? So now let's go to the topic Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." When did He know Jeremiah , and please don't tell me it's because He knows everything , as He just showed you in Job all were created at the same time . So what happened ? for that ,let's go to Revelations Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Job told you who the stars were , the above is the reason we are born of woman , because 1/3 of Gods children followed satan Think I made that simple enough , but as I said , we can go deeper

I was with you until Jeremiah 1:5
God knew all of us before we were born.
I don't deny this.
What I'm saying is that we're not saved, sanctified in the womb,
except for some very special persons: Mary, John the Baptist and some others - just a few.

Then I kind of lost what your point is...
Help!

 

[GodsGrace]

It's interesting . . . your response. What you are doing is using Scripture to manipulate God into arguing with Himself. Why?

Pretty scary.

LOL
Jerry is not the one manipulating scripture.

And why would that be God arguing with Himself?

Too bad you have me on ignore - it could have been interesting.

 

[jerry63935]

Pretty scary.

lol your post are scary i cant make heads or tales of them

 

[jerry63935]

It's interesting . . . your response. What you are doing is using Scripture to manipulate God into arguing with Himself. Why?

Pretty scary.

your post are like a pencil with erasers on both ends NO POINT

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

lol your post are scary i cant make heads or tales of them

Well, it's True, which is that the Gospel is hidden from the majority of folks.

Do you remember when Christ gave you eyes to see, ears to hear, and legs to Spiritually walk? When did your Transformation begin and how has your life changed since that Transformation began?

John 9:39 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind."

Romans 12:2 NLT - "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

I would Truly love to hear about your Holy Transformation!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

your post are like a pencil with erasers on both ends NO POINT

I hear you. I've had to "dumb down" a lot so that people can understand passages that their "pastors" and "teachers" refuse to teach. So, if you need me to do that, it's no problem.

 

[jerry63935]

I would Truly love to hear about your Holy Transformation!

i got saved i had a born again experience i been justified sanctified and glorified . i been called out of the darkness into the Glorious Light. i been bought with a price redeemed. i became a NEW Creation in Christ old things passed away all things became new. i been transformed * changed * by the renewing of my mind.. Christ has started a new work in my life and is able to complete .. you see i am a work in progress it never ends. might i also add i have the Holy Spirit Dwelling in me. last but not least i have a advocate.


you have what indoctrination ?

I've had to "dumb down"

your not far off.

so that people can understand passages that their "pastors" and "teachers" refuse to teach. So, if you need me to do that, it's no problem.

I've had to "dumb down"

Hmm when you going to start .i have yet to even begin to see anything

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

i got saved i had a born again experience i been justified sanctified and glorified . i been called out of the darkness into the Glorious Light. i been bought with a price redeemed. i became a NEW Creation in Christ old things passed away all things became new. i been transformed * changed * by the renewing of my mind.. Christ has started a new work in my life and is able to complete .. you see i am a work in progress it never ends. might i also add i have the Holy Spirit Dwelling in me. last but not least i have a advocate.


you have what indoctrination ?



your not far off.



Hmm when you going to start .i have yet to even begin to see anything

Hey, I like what you had to say in your testimony. I like to hear of people say the kings of things that you have said. Those who Powerfully know the Lord, they are more bold, perhaps like yourself.

My indoctrination? I'm not sure of what you mean by that, but I don't have one. In fact, when I was Powerfully encountered by the Spirit, it became important for me to admit that I did not understand the Bible, and that I really couldn't describe the Gospel. My entire 49 years of life were associated with the church . . . but I was unable to explain the Gospel.

The Lord impressed it into my mind that I need to read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that I could actually understand the Story of God, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And so that is what I have tried to do . . . to learn the True Story of God by looking for the most meaningful Scriptures that I could find that would tell me, exactly, what the Gospel is.

I realized that I didn't know the Bible as I thought I did. The fog was lifted. What I sort of knew, which is that my understanding of the Bible was hazy, well . . . that fog lifted and it was apparent that I needed to get things figured out. So, I abandoned all previous "knowledge" of the Bible that I had had and stripped my mind clean of such ridiculous ideas. And so I have been indoctrinated by the Holy Spirit, as I sought His Word with utmost diligence, even as much as 18 hours per day I would devote my time to His Holy Word.

What I began to discover in the Bible began to shock me more and more, especially after reading the Bible in the above manner 3 times. It is the most unbelievable story imaginable. I wish all would read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order . . . it is one of the greatest things a person could ever do. To think that this material was conceived thousands of years ago . . . our Bible is absolutely a miracle in itself. Our Bible could only be written by God Himself.

I wish that someone would have taught me what is so clear in the Bible. The Mysterious Plan of God is told in the Bible; we just have to piece it together. Those who Seek, Knock, and Ask . . . this Plan is revealed.

 

[n2thelight]

i surely do because i am ..have you ?

Serious question , but anyway.

 

[n2thelight]

I haven't concerned myself with such a question. What matters to me is that I fully understand the True Gospel. What a concept, eh?

Guess that's the problem, your like of concern of God's Word

 

[n2thelight]

I was with you until Jeremiah 1:5
God knew all of us before we were born.
I don't deny this.
What I'm saying is that we're not saved, sanctified in the womb,
except for some very special persons: Mary, John the Baptist and some others - just a few.

Then I kind of lost what your point is...
Help!

He told Jeremiah ,He was justified before he was placed in his mothers womb ,therefore he was saved

 

[n2thelight]

n2thelight

copy scripture and paste , not computer savy .Looks funny to me sometimes as well, I try to review before I post , but I'm at work most times when I'm here

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Guess that's the problem, your like of concern of God's Word

Ahhh...
Can you further explain my problem to the world? Dazzle us with your Holy Wisdom and judgments! Lol

 

[n2thelight]

Take a look at the verse below , and ask yourself ,who's gonna do this

MARK CHAPTER 13 KJV
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand the verse , it's when true tongues will be spoken again, and it's the elect whom will do this .