God and chance

[OzSpen]

Does the Bible teach a doctrine of chance in Ecclesiastes 9:11? This verse reads:

• “I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all” (NIV).

• “I have observed something else under the sun. The fastest runner doesn’t always win the race, and the strongest warrior doesn’t always win the battle. The wise sometimes go hungry, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy. And those who are educated don’t always lead successful lives. It is all decided by chance, by being in the right place at the right time” (NLT).

• “Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all” (ESV).

• “I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor wealth to the discerning, nor favor to the skillful; for time and chance overtake them all” (NASB).

• “Again, I observed this on the earth: the race is not always won by the swiftest, the battle is not always won by the strongest; prosperity does not always belong to those who are the wisest, wealth does not always belong to those who are the most discerning, nor does success always come to those with the most knowledge--for time and chance may overcome them all” (NET).

Is this a message only for the Israelites? How can “time and chance happen to all” (ESV) or “overtake them all” (NASB)? The contemporary understanding of chance,[1] in a universe controlled by the Sovereign Lord, does not harmonize with each other.

Oz

---

[1] The Oxford English Dictionary defines chance as, “A possibility of something happening,” (2021. chance), https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/chance (Accessed 12 December 2021.)

 

[jasonc]

Proverbs says something about casting lots but it is Lord who decides

 

[for_his_glory]

Ecc 9:11-18 is speaking about wisdom being better than folly.

This poor wise man, which seems to be a no-buddy to everybody, was more wise as he had the wisdom as he feared God. He took the chance to deliver his city from the tyrant king as God probably gave him the wisdom to accomplish this.

Many no-buddies do great things that make good change, but are never recognized for their efforts.

IMO this is a message for all of us, even though the OT seems to be geared to the Israelites, but shadows of future things as in Jew and Gentile becoming the body of Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Ecc 9:11-18 is speaking about wisdom being better than folly.

This poor wise man, which seems to be a no-buddy to everybody, was more wise as he had the wisdom as he feared God. He took the chance to deliver his city from the tyrant king as God probably gave him the wisdom to accomplish this.

Many no-buddies do great things that make good change, but are never recognized for their efforts.

IMO this is a message for all of us, even though the OT seems to be geared to the Israelites, but shadows of future things as in Jew and Gentile becoming the body of Christ.

FHG,

You didn't answer my question: Is God a God of time and chance? What does chance mean in Ecclesiastes?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Proverbs says something about casting lots but it is Lord who decides

Jason,

Why don't you find the verse in Proverbs so we can discuss it? However, Ecclesiastes mentions "time and chance." What is the writer talking about?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Why don't you find the verse in Proverbs so we can discuss it? However, Ecclesiastes mentions "time and chance." What is the writer talking about?

Oz

You asked if God allowed chance,is not the bible not contradictory

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

You didn't answer my question: Is God a God of time and chance? What does chance mean in Ecclesiastes?

Oz

Sorry, I was giving the full context of Ecc 9:11-18.

As for your question. Wisdom of God is better than the chances that man takes that leads to folly. I don't think God is a God of chances, but everything is done in His own timing and foreknowledge.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Why don't you find the verse in Proverbs so we can discuss it? However, Ecclesiastes mentions "time and chance." What is the writer talking about?

Oz

Casting Lots in the Bible - EARLY CHURCH HISTORY

Perhaps the most famous casting of lots in the Bible is the casting of lots by the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus.

earlychurchhistory.org

 

[Who Me]

Does the Bible teach a doctrine of chance in Ecclesiastes 9:11?

Doctrine is not based on one verse, and as always context is key.
Solomon is talking about life and how people live.
He is not writing theology.
Look around you at how people live, at how they pick up on what appears to be all chance, good and bad luck.

 

[Norman]

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way." - Psalm 37:23 NKJV

 

[eddif]

FHG,

You didn't answer my question: Is God a God of time and chance? What does chance mean in Ecclesiastes?

Oz

• “I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all” (NIV)

I am not the smartest person out there. I can make mistakes.

Under the sun. I will admit that God made the sun. Perhaps under the sun describes us before we look at ourselves as under the higher level (past repentance, salvation in Christ Jesus, past being filled with the Holy Spirit).

We have a wretched man aspect of our life (before salvation comes). In that situation can chance exist?

After salvation ( you decide what that is) Christ in us and us in Christ is a different situation. Our direction in spiritual life is different ( if we are praying for his kingdom to come).

Paul described the flesh and the mind. Two areas.

See if looking at the passage again will make a difference?

Did I say anything?

eddif

 

[hawkman]

Does the Bible teach a doctrine of chance in Ecclesiastes 9:11? This verse reads:

• “I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all” (NIV).

• “I have observed something else under the sun. The fastest runner doesn’t always win the race, and the strongest warrior doesn’t always win the battle. The wise sometimes go hungry, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy. And those who are educated don’t always lead successful lives. It is all decided by chance, by being in the right place at the right time” (NLT).

• “Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all” (ESV).

• “I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor wealth to the discerning, nor favor to the skillful; for time and chance overtake them all” (NASB).

• “Again, I observed this on the earth: the race is not always won by the swiftest, the battle is not always won by the strongest; prosperity does not always belong to those who are the wisest, wealth does not always belong to those who are the most discerning, nor does success always come to those with the most knowledge--for time and chance may overcome them all” (NET).

Is this a message only for the Israelites? How can “time and chance happen to all” (ESV) or “overtake them all” (NASB)? The contemporary understanding of chance,[1] in a universe controlled by the Sovereign Lord, does not harmonize with each other.

Oz

---

[1] The Oxford English Dictionary defines chance as, “A possibility of something happening,” (2021. chance), https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/chance (Accessed 12 December 2021.)

Does the Bible teach a doctrine of chance in Ecclesiastes 9:11?

It falls short if that is it's purpose .

The contemporary understanding of chance,[1] in a universe controlled by the Sovereign Lord, does not harmonize with each other.

Was something lost in the translation ? God knows what has happened in our lives , what is going on now in our lives now and our future time , I have no doubt of this .

Chance is not a common word in the Bible . Here are all the verses I could find .

Deuteronomy 22:6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young:

1 Samuel 6:9 And see, if it goeth up by the way of his own coast to Bethshemesh, then he hath done us this great evil: but if not, then we shall know that it is not his hand that smote us: it was a chance that happened to us.

2 Samuel 1:6 And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

 

[OzSpen]

Doctrine is not based on one verse, and as always context is key.
Solomon is talking about life and how people live.
He is not writing theology.
Look around you at how people live, at how they pick up on what appears to be all chance, good and bad luck.

Since when did the Bible NOT support the writing of theology, even in one verse?

Oz

 

[RevSRE]

At times a word study can help, then at times, it does not say a lot. there are 5 words translated Chance. You must read and decide if it says "Something Just Happened" or when One follows God's lead and prayerfully lives their life are they just in the place God led them to be.

H7122​

ָקָרא

q̣ārā’: A verb meaning to meet, to encounter, to come across, to happen. It states that something has taken place, occurred, happened, good, bad, or neutral (Gen_42:4, Gen_42:38; Exo_1:10). It refers to the entire sweep of events yet to happen to the sons of Jacob and their descendants (Gen_49:1). It refers to divine encounters (Exo_5:3). It indicates a chance happening (Deu_22:6; 2Sa_1:6). It is used of divine judgments occurring (Isa_51:19; Jer_13:22; Jer_32:23; Jer_44:23).

H4745​

ִמְקֶרה

miqreh: A masculine noun referring to a chance event, a happening, a fate. It refers to something that occurs without human planning or intervention (Rth_2:3; 1Sa_20:26); or even God's intervention (1Sa_6:9). It is a feature of human life (Ecc_2:14-15; Ecc_3:19; Ecc_9:2-3).

H6294​

ֶפַּגע

peg̱a‛: A masculine noun pointing out a circumstantial event, a chance happening, something that takes place. In context is may mean a detrimental event or a chance happening (1Ki_5:4 [18]). It refers to any chance occurrence in the lives of people (Ecc_9:11).

G4795​

συγκυρία

sugkuría; gen. sugkurías, fem. noun from sugkuréō (n.f.), to coincide, happen together. A happening together, coincidence, accident, chance (Luk_10:31, indicative of coincidence of circumstances).

G5177​

τυγχάνω

tugchánō; fut. teúxomai, 2d aor. étuchon, perf. tetúchēka. To hit, strike, reach a mark or object as by a weapon. Also to fall in with or meet persons casually. Hence in the NT:

(I) Trans., to attain to, obtain, gain, receive (Luk_20:35; Act_24:2; Act_26:22; Act_27:3; 2Ti_2:10; Heb_8:6; Heb_11:35, in the 2d aor. subjunctive).

(II) Intrans., to happen, to chance.

(A) With ei (G1487), if, and the impersonal túchoi, if it so happens, it may be, perchance, perhaps (1Co_14:10; 1Co_15:37 where it is equivalent to "for example").

(B) Part. tuchṓn, masc., fem. tuchoúsa, neut. tuchón. (1) As an adj., to happen anywhere and at any time, chance, casual, common. Hence, ou tuchṓn (ou [G3756], not), means uncommon, special (Act_19:11; Act_28:2). (2) Neut. tuchón as an adv. meaning it may be, perchance, perhaps (1Co_16:6).

(C) After the part. of another verb, tugchánō is used in an adv. sense much like the Eng. to happen to be, to chance to be, before a part. In Luk_10:30 the part. tugchánonta follows aphéntes, the aor. part. of aphíēmi (G863), to leave, meaning "leaving him happening to be half dead" (a.t.), leaving him, as it were, half dead.

Deriv.: entugchánō (G1793), to run up against, chance upon, approach, entreat; epitugchánō (G2013), to light or chance upon, obtain, succeed; suntugchánō (G4940), to chance together, meet with; paratugchánō (G3909), to chance near, meet with.

Syn.: sunantáō (G4876), to meet with, occur; apantáō (G528), to encounter, meet; prosérchomai (G4334), to come near, approach; katantáō (G2658), to arrive at; katalambánō (G2638), to seize, apprehend, attain; phthánō (G5348), to anticipate, to reach; lambánō (G2983), to obtain; lagchánō (G2975), to obtain by lot; ktáomai (G2932), to procure for oneself; heurískō (G2147), to find.

Ant.: apophérō (G667), to bear off, carry away; leípō (G3007), to be absent, leave; kataleípō (G2641), to leave behind, forsake; aphíēmi (G863), to leave, let, forsake; apéchō (G568), to keep away; eáō (G1439), to let be, permit or leave alone; apoleípō (G620), to leave behind, forsake; aphanízō (G853), to cause to disappear, perish, vanish away; aphístēmi (G868), to depart.

 

[OzSpen]

H6294​

ֶפַּגע

peg̱a‛: A masculine noun pointing out a circumstantial event, a chance happening, something that takes place. In context is may mean a detrimental event or a chance happening (1Ki_5:4 [18]). It refers to any chance occurrence in the lives of people (Ecc_9:11).

Rev,

I'm still struggling to understand how "any chance occurrence in the lives of people" can happen under the umbrella of the sovereign Lord. Can you help me to understand how these fit together in God's plan?

Sovereignty and chance don't seem to be a good match.

Oz

 

[eddif]

1 Corinthians 7:16
16. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The word chance does not appear here, but my mind screams ( you mean there is a chance for it to happen).

eddif

 

[RevSRE]

Rev,

I'm still struggling to understand how "any chance occurrence in the lives of people" can happen under the umbrella of the sovereign Lord. Can you help me to understand how these fit together in God's plan?

Sovereignty and chance don't seem to be a good match.

Oz

This is one of those topics that starts real arguments. SO, What I say here is from one side and MY OPINION.
Sovereign DOES NOT MEAN "Makes all the Decisions". It never has.
Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.
It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there at" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished. The Sovereignty Of God By Andrew Wommack

The FIRST GOSPEL and SHEADING OF BLOOD.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMISE! (Gen 3:15 The First Gospel.) Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices.
It is foolish to say Adam after he disobeyed God was so sinful that he could not Know God. From WHAT TREE did he eat? I thought it was the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Why COULD man fall? If man was to be a truly Free Moral agent, which could “Choose to fellowship with God “OR NOT” man had to be able and free to choose not to know God! The point here is God wanted a being that could and would, choose to know Him, to Love Him, to serve Him, TO FELLOWSHIP.
The Danish Theologian/ Philosopher Soren Kierkegaard says that this fact, the fact of our free will, “is the cross that philosophy could not carry but was left stumbling at”. What a paradox it is—that it is up to us whether Omnipotence’s will may be done! But that is what freedom means. There is one thing that even Omnipotence cannot give to Himself: Our own free choice to love him.

Why did God not just kill Adam and Eve and start over?
God gave them the Right to choose.

ALL OF THIS IS ONLY TO SAY; the problems we face the "CHANCE" events we seem to see, ARE THE RESULT OF the CHOICES WE MADE! Hurt, evil, anger, loss, sin, IS NOT GOD's fault, it is from choices WE MADE, Please do not blame God for our Choices.
When we are in the wrong place it is the result of choice not chance.

Just interacting with People and the world daily require Choices, we too often make the wrong ones.

 

[OzSpen]

This is one of those topics that starts real arguments. SO, What I say here is from one side and MY OPINION.
Sovereign DOES NOT MEAN "Makes all the Decisions". It never has.
Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.
It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there at" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished. The Sovereignty Of God By Andrew Wommack

The FIRST GOSPEL and SHEADING OF BLOOD.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMISE! (Gen 3:15 The First Gospel.) Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices.
It is foolish to say Adam after he disobeyed God was so sinful that he could not Know God. From WHAT TREE did he eat? I thought it was the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Why COULD man fall? If man was to be a truly Free Moral agent, which could “Choose to fellowship with God “OR NOT” man had to be able and free to choose not to know God! The point here is God wanted a being that could and would, choose to know Him, to Love Him, to serve Him, TO FELLOWSHIP.
The Danish Theologian/ Philosopher Soren Kierkegaard says that this fact, the fact of our free will, “is the cross that philosophy could not carry but was left stumbling at”. What a paradox it is—that it is up to us whether Omnipotence’s will may be done! But that is what freedom means. There is one thing that even Omnipotence cannot give to Himself: Our own free choice to love him.

Why did God not just kill Adam and Eve and start over?
God gave them the Right to choose.

ALL OF THIS IS ONLY TO SAY; the problems we face the "CHANCE" events we seem to see, ARE THE RESULT OF the CHOICES WE MADE! Hurt, evil, anger, loss, sin, IS NOT GOD's fault, it is from choices WE MADE, Please do not blame God for our Choices.
When we are in the wrong place it is the result of choice not chance.

Just interacting with People and the world daily require Choices, we too often make the wrong ones.

RevSRE,

I consider that the biblical teaching is that God is absolutely sovereign and that sovereignty includes the free will decisions of human beings. This is a brief overview of God’s sovereign attributes:

God is before all things (Ps 90:2; Col 1:17);
All things were created by God (Jn 1:3);
God sustains all things (Heb 1:3);
God is above and over all things ( Eph 4:6);
God is all knowing (Ps 139:4-6; Heb 4:13);
God is all-powerful (Gen 18:4);
God’s sovereignty implies that He does what He wills (Isa 14:24, 27).

This sovereignty means that

God is the ruler over all things (1 Chron 29:11-12);
God does whatever He pleases (i.e. is in control of everything) (Ps 115:3);
Earthly kings are controlled by God (Prov 21:1);
God’s control extends to human events (Isa 55:11);
Good and evil angels are under God’s control (Col 1:15-16; Eph 1:21; 1 Ki 22:19-22);
God controls Satan (Job 1:6; 2:1; Rev 20:10).

The most difficult theological content I find to believe is that God is sovereign overall, including our free-will.

Oz

 

[RevSRE]

The most difficult theological content I find to believe is that God is sovereign overall, including our free-will.

OK I agree, Try this idea and see if it may help. God is the ABSOLUTE HIGHEST AUTHORITY, He gave us a CHoice. But most People do not understand that Choice. WE HAVE A CHOICE TO OBEY GOD or ourselves. We may Do as God said, or do as Satan and the world offers: BUT, that is the LIMIT; once we chose to Obey God and do HIS will we MUST DO HIS WILL. There is a LIMIT to Choice. God is Always the Highest Final Authority.

 

[OzSpen]

Excellent explanation.

Oz