God cannot judge unaware people

[GodsGrace]

No need for communion. They co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal. What one knows they all know and they (God) is immutable. There's no need to communicate; everything is already a 'done deal'. There's no contemplation and no exchange of ideas .... it's one God in three persons.
... and it's also a 'mystery' to some degree, so I don't know what I am talking about to a degree (giggle)

Just a thought...

One of the reasons for the great schism was regarding the Filoque.

The Orthodox claim the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

The CC teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son,,,,as though their love for each other was a Person.

That's it. Just thought I'd put it out there.
BTW, I'm not sure this is OFFICIAL Catholic teaching or just a way to explain the Person of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

No need for communion. They co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal. What one knows they all know and they (God) is immutable. There's no need to communicate; everything is already a 'done deal'. There's no contemplation and no exchange of ideas .... it's one God in three persons.
... and it's also a 'mystery' to some degree, so I don't know what I am talking about to a degree (giggle)

Hmmm
I don't think Christ_empowered meant communication as in that they converse with each other, but they know what each is thinking at any given moment.
They are IN COMMUNION...

 

[Fastfredy0]

You can only worship a divine being, or a deity.
But worship has to come from a lesser being.

Well, all I ask is what is the source of the definition of worship?

I was kind of hoping you'd just agree so I could stop thinking about this...

Maybe the enjoyment comes from contemplation and not from a solution. I'm still not sure on this one.

One of the reasons for the great schism was regarding the Filoque.

The Orthodox claim the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

The CC teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son,,,,as though their love for each other was a Person.

That's it. Just thought I'd put it out there.

I don't know. The Trinity thing is a bit of a mystery to me... especially when people try to fine tune it. I'm sure if I think about it I will come up with some kind of heresy (giggle)

I don't think @Christ_empowered meant communication as in that they converse with each other, but they know what each is thinking at any given moment.
They are IN COMMUNION...

Maybe ... I don't know. It's not like there are 3 independent minds all thinking the same thing. It's beyond me if I go very deep (or even shallow).
Aside: I often pray for forgiveness for what I get wrong about God. Not that I know of anything (sigh).

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not disagree on this maam, in fact that is scriptural, according to 2 Thes 1:8 knowing Gid is a requirement for salvation, but notice the second thing that is a requirement in that verse.

On this I agree.
Those that love God, whether or not they know about the verses in Thessalonians will know enough to be loving toward others and to obey God.

I know person that have never read a bible, and are saved just as much as some that know the bible frontwards and backwards.

God checks our heart,
not our knowledge.

1 Timothy 1:5
5The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

 

[Free]

Maybe all 3 components of the trinity are simply in the ultimate state of never ending communion?

Exactly this, except that I wouldn't say "components," as that makes it sound as though they are three parts that together constitute God. Rather, they are three persons, each fully and truly God, in never ending communion and intimate relationship.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly this, except that I wouldn't say "components," as that makes it sound as though they are three parts that together constitute God. Rather, they are three persons, each fully and truly God, in never ending communion and intimate relationship.

You should write a book on the Trinity....
You sure do know a lot about it.

 

[Free]

You should write a book on the Trinity....
You sure do know a lot about it.

I don't know about that, as much as I would like to write a book. But having a good knowledge about it is why I debate it, and other things, so much.

If I ever write one, I'll send you a signed copy.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know about that, as much as I would like to write a book. But having a good knowledge about it is why I debate it, and other things, so much.

If I ever write one, I'll send you a signed copy.

I'm waiting...

 

[Fastfredy0]

You should write a book on the Trinity....
You sure do know a lot about it.

I think Free and the guy that disagreed with him for 500 posts should co-author a book.
*sinister grin*

 

[Christ_empowered]

Lol

 

[Highway54]

It is the NWT that has been altered, such as in Col 1:16:

16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

It used to have “other” in [ ] to acknowledge that it isn’t in the Greek, but now it seems that they really want people people to believe that that is what the Greek says. That is incredibly misleading and contradicts John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 in the NWT. How long before they add to those verses as well? That is what happens when doctrine doesn’t come from the Bible.


Not at all. This is the main problem with the Watchtower view of Christ—they take verses which clearly show the humanity of Christ and use them to overrule those that clearly show his deity, even to the point that they alter the Bible. Phil 2:5-8, which completely affirms John 1:1-18, is absolutely key.


The Watchtower has made God to be a liar by adding to the text of the Bible to make it say something it doesn’t.


Yahweh would be a better English translation.

It is the NWT that has been altered, such as in Col 1:16:

Jesus did not create himself Free

The Watchtower has made God to be a liar by adding to the text of the Bible to make it say something it doesn’t.

Example?

Yahweh would be a better English translation.

Yahweh is Hebrew, Jehovah is English. Every version that translates the Divine Name into English renders it Jehovah. Every word you typed was in English, why do you suppose you have a problem with Jehovah? Make no mistake however Yahweh is a perfectly acceptable name of YHWH which is the name He gave to Moses literally.

 

[Highway54]

I know of no modern, mainstream versions of the Bible that have mistranslated the verses I cited that say Jesus was God incarnate. The abundance of ancient NT manuscript copies (many thousands), compiled and compared, provide modern translators of the NT an incredible basis for very high translation accuracy. I can look at the ancient Greek versions of the NT myself and see that there is full translation fidelity to them in the study Bibles that I use. I cannot say the same for the NWT, however, which many Bible scholars/language experts have roundly rejected as a reliable translation of Scripture. If there is any translation of the Bible that has been manipulated to conform to doctrines external to it, it's the NWT.

Mark 10:36-45
36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”
37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized,
40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John.
42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Don't see how this passage makes Christ a liar...

Jesus says here to his disciples that he can't grant what they want because who sits where in glory has already been decided. What does this have to do with Jesus being the God-Man, though? As he pointed out to his disciples at the end of the passage above, he hadn't come to earth to establish greater and lesser in his kingdom, but to serve mankind by giving his life as a ransom for many (See: Philippians 2:5-8).

Mark 13:29-33
29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come.

Do you know what the "Indiscernibility of Identicals" is? It's a law of logic (See: Liebniz) that states that truly identical things cannot have any variation between them. This is an important law in considering the Trinity, for it is very evident in Scripture that though the members of the Trinity share a common deity, an identical divine nature, they are not exactly the same being. In light of this, it is unremarkable that Jesus should not, in his incarnated form, divested of his heavenly glory, sent specifically to serve and enact the Father's will on earth, know and do exactly what the Father knows and does. They are not identical Persons, though they have an identical divine essence, or substance.

Don't see how this passage makes Christ a liar...

Only God had the authority, the same one who knew the day and hour.

 

[Highway54]

On this I agree.
Those that love God, whether or not they know about the verses in Thessalonians will know enough to be loving toward others and to obey God.

I know person that have never read a bible, and are saved just as much as some that know the bible frontwards and backwards.

God checks our heart,
not our knowledge.

1 Timothy 1:5
5The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

You can see how much of a moron I am maam, I spelled God Gid, I need to proofread more

I know person that have never read a bible, and are saved just as much as some that know the bible frontwards and backwards.

That is not logical today maam. We are talking about accountability, if they are in full control of their faculties, they have to be educated in God's ways to be obedient to His commandments. It is the doing of God's will that makes us sheep Mat 7:21

 

[GodsGrace]

I think Free and the guy that disagreed with him for 500 posts should co-author a book.
*sinister grin*

Ya think ?

 

[Tenchi]

Only God had the authority, the same one who knew the day and hour.

Read Philippians 2:5-8. God the Father had not emptied Himself, set aside His heavenly glory, taking on the form of a human being, born of a virgin, enduring the necessary growth from infancy to manhood, as Jesus had. The knowledge and authority of the heavenly and fully-glorified Christ was set aside in Christ's incarnation. It is no surprise, then, that he would defer to the Father.

 

[Free]

Jesus did not create himself Free

I agree, because the Bible clearly states that he wasn't created at all. He is the Son of God come in human flesh.

Example?

I already gave one--"other" isn't in the Greek and has been added four times to the text in Col 1:16-17. And, as I pointed out, the 1984 edition of the NWT said "all [other] things," but the newer edition just says "all other things." That completely changes the meaning of the text by removing an obvious reference to the deity of Christ. There is also the third clause in John 1:1, "the Word was a god," which not only contradicts the first clause, it promotes polytheism, contradicting numerous other passages.

There is also Zech 12:10:

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son." (NWT)

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." (ESV)

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." (NASB)

You can see HERE that it is "first person singular," meaning "me," not "the one." This purposely changes the meaning from God being the one who is pierced to some other. The point is that it removes the deity of the Messiah.

Look at John 8:58:

"Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been." (NWT)

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ᾿Αμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Said to them Jesus Amen amen I am saying to YOU Before Abraham to become I am.

Even the Kingdom Interlinear (above) has "I am," so why do they change it in the NWT? This is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ.

There is also John 14:10:

"Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me?+ The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works." (NWT)

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." (ESV)

Again, this is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ by adding "union," which isn't in the Greek text. Even the Kingdom Interlinear shows this to be the case.

Also, Acts 20:28:

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. (NWT, 1984)

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son." (NWT)

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." (ESV)

Notice that once again, the NWT went from "[Son]," because that isn't in the Greek, to "Son." Again, this is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ, since it is clearly saying, even emphatically in the Greek, that it is God's own blood.

In short, the NWT has attempted to remove references to the deity of Christ, although it has done it poorly and inconsistently.

 

[Highway54]

Read Philippians 2:5-8. God the Father had not emptied Himself, set aside His heavenly glory, taking on the form of a human being, born of a virgin, enduring the necessary growth from infancy to manhood, as Jesus had. The knowledge and authority of the heavenly and fully-glorified Christ was set aside in Christ's incarnation. It is no surprise, then, that he would defer to the Father.

God sent Jesus Tenchi, it was Jesus who emptied himself and willingly came Jn 3:16, God remained in heaven as a spirit being, not a human John 4:24

 

[Highway54]

I agree, because the Bible clearly states that he wasn't created at all. He is the Son of God come in human flesh.


I already gave one--"other" isn't in the Greek and has been added four times to the text in Col 1:16-17. And, as I pointed out, the 1984 edition of the NWT said "all [other] things," but the newer edition just says "all other things." That completely changes the meaning of the text by removing an obvious reference to the deity of Christ. There is also the third clause in John 1:1, "the Word was a god," which not only contradicts the first clause, it promotes polytheism, contradicting numerous other passages.

There is also Zech 12:10:

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son." (NWT)

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." (ESV)

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." (NASB)

You can see HERE that it is "first person singular," meaning "me," not "the one." This purposely changes the meaning from God being the one who is pierced to some other. The point is that it removes the deity of the Messiah.

Look at John 8:58:

"Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been." (NWT)

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ᾿Αμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Said to them Jesus Amen amen I am saying to YOU Before Abraham to become I am.

Even the Kingdom Interlinear (above) has "I am," so why do they change it in the NWT? This is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ.

There is also John 14:10:

"Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me?+ The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works." (NWT)

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." (ESV)

Again, this is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ by adding "union," which isn't in the Greek text. Even the Kingdom Interlinear shows this to be the case.

Also, Acts 20:28:

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. (NWT, 1984)

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son." (NWT)

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." (ESV)

Notice that once again, the NWT went from "[Son]," because that isn't in the Greek, to "Son." Again, this is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ, since it is clearly saying, even emphatically in the Greek, that it is God's own blood.

In short, the NWT has attempted to remove references to the deity of Christ, although it has done it poorly and inconsistently.

Look at John 8:58:

"Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been." (NWT)

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ᾿Αμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Said to them Jesus Amen amen I am saying to YOU Before Abraham to become I am.

Even the Kingdom Interlinear (above) has "I am," so why do they change it in the NWT? This is another attempt to remove the deity of Christ.

All Bibles add words for instance the KJV in Zech 12:10 adds 45 words in that verse alone, with me being one of them. It could be wrong, but my study guide (Bible Collection/ Strongs) reveals that. They added however for understanding.

Yes let us do look at Jn 8:58, What question was asked Jesus, and what answer did he give, and what gives you indication that Jesus was claiming to be God sir?

 

[Tenchi]

God sent Jesus Tenchi, it was Jesus who emptied himself and willingly came Jn 3:16, God remained in heaven as a spirit being, not a human John 4:24

Yes, this is what I pointed out. Please read my remarks more carefully.

 

[D-D-W]

One of the reasons for the great schism was regarding the Filoque.
The Orthodox claim the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

The CC teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son,,,,as though their love for each other was a Person.

It is never in the text that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. I find it interesting that the Romans added the Filoque in there and then condemned the Orthodox for removing it.

How do you remove something that was never there in the first place?