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GOD IS A SINNER

wondering

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I've been thinking about the reformed faith since we have a few members here of that belief system.

The more I ponder on the teachings of that world view...the more it seems totally unbelievable and the less
sense it makes.

This morning this came to mind:

God is a sinner.

Why?

God gave us the 10 commandments to follow.
God is a holy God and in Him there is no darkness. 1 John 1:5
He expects us to follow the 10 commandments if we want to be with Him for eternity.

So then why does God sin?

If God decreed, preordained, predestined, predetermined, everything that is to happen to each man, as Calvin taught and the Westminister Confession of Faith teaches....

Then God is CREATING and CAUSING sin and He is thus a sinner.
They that COMMIT, cause, the sin...are the ones sinning.

So, the end result is that God is a sinner and does the very things He tells us not to do.
 
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No I mean James White the modern Calvinist preacher. He addresses the question of "God authoring evil" routinely on his radio show. Not saying I agree with him, but he has an answer.
 

stovebolts

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No I mean James White the modern Calvinist preacher. He addresses the question of "God authoring evil" routinely on his radio show. Not saying I agree with him, but he has an answer.
Yes, some don’t like everything the Bible says, and in some areas, I think few understand some passages.

we’ve discussed this passage over the years and talk about a multitude of interpretations!

Isaiah 45:7​

King James Version​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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wondering there's a whole community of very accomplished theologians who debate this. There are lots of formal debates in academic settings that you can watch on YouTube. Those guys cover the arguments better than random posters on a forum.
 

wondering

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wondering there's a whole community of very accomplished theologians who debate this. There are lots of formal debates in academic settings that you can watch on YouTube. Those guys cover the arguments better than random posters on a forum.
Right.
But we like to discuss these things.
I can't ask White questions.
Plus it makes calvinists think.
I'd like to understand how they think.
Plus, there are many reading along ,,our posts are for their benefit too.

And I don't underestimate White ,,I just can't agree with him.
 

wondering

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No I mean James White the modern Calvinist preacher. He addresses the question of "God authoring evil" routinely on his radio show. Not saying I agree with him, but he has an answer.
Just saw this.
Some of the reformed do admit that God creates evil.
 

wondering

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Yes, some don’t like everything the Bible says, and in some areas, I think few understand some passages.

we’ve discussed this passage over the years and talk about a multitude of interpretations!

Isaiah 45:7​

King James Version​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
O.T. persons thought God did everything ,,, even what happened naturally.

Obama caused much "evil" to happen in Iraq.
Did he do this directly?
No.
He did this by withdrawing troops.
 
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I could give you 5 Calvinist arguments off the top of my head.

1) When the universe was created, God had already ordained the plan of salvation, which means He already knew that billions would suffer in a wicked world. Yet He made the universe to be this way anyhow.

2) Romans 13 says God installs governments. So God installed the Roman emperors who martyred many Christians.

3) God forbids us to seek revenge, but He takes revenge, so clearly He has a different standard for Himself.

4) God hardened pharoahs heart to make things worse for the Hebrews.

5) Jesus was the author and finisher of a plan that patently required His violent death on a cross.

They can defend "God authoring evil" without even getting to pre-destination.

Now I'm not saying I agree with them. But they can make good arguments.
 

wondering

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I could give you 5 Calvinist arguments off the top of my head.

1) When the universe was created, God had already ordained the plan of salvation, which means He already knew that billions would suffer in a wicked world. Yet He made the universe to be this way anyhow.

2) Romans 13 says God installs governments. So God installed the Roman emperors who martyred many Christians.

3) God forbids us to seek revenge, but He takes revenge, so clearly He has a different standard for Himself.

4) God hardened pharoahs heart to make things worse for the Hebrews.

5) Jesus was the author and finisher of a plan that patently required His violent death on a cross.

They can defend "God authoring evil" without even getting to pre-destination.

Now I'm not saying I agree with them. But they can make good arguments.
Hmmmm.
But that's not what this thread is about.
 
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Yes, some don’t like everything the Bible says, and in some areas, I think few understand some passages.

we’ve discussed this passage over the years and talk about a multitude of interpretations!

Isaiah 45:7​

King James Version​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Could this verse be better understood if the words "by giving Man choice" is added to the end as commentary?
 

stovebolts

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Could this verse be better understood if the words "by giving Man choice" is added to the end as commentary?
Yes, I think it could better be misunderstood by adding those words.

For me, I think it’s better understood the way wondering described it when she said, “He did this by withdrawing troops.”.

Samuel Lucien Terrien writes an Old Testament Theology titled, “On the Psalmody of Presence” where he discusses “Presence in Absence”, which ironically Spurs from the reformed traditions.

Samuel Lucien Terrien opens by discussing the “hidden God” in Isiah 8:17 and Isiah 45:15. He then goes on to Psalms 22 at great length highlighting verse 10 and 11.

Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not the spirit of thy holiness away from me.
Restore unto me the mirth of thy rescue and let the spirit of nobility uphold me.

Samuel writes, “ God comes only to those who are pure of heart, but how can the heart of man be pure? God alone is able to cleanse an enormous guilt. No ritual will suffice, for man is utterly depraved. More than ceremonial ablutions or characteristic amelioration are needed. Nothing less than a radical innovation is required.”

Samuel then goes on to pull out the Hebrew word “bara” which means, “to create” from “create in me a pure heart, O God, and make new within me a steadfast spirit”.

It is this word “bara” which is used in the creation account, including the creation of humanity.

From a Jewish perspective, the word “bara” is a very rich word, and I may write more on this later as it pertains to the subject. For now, we see in the creation account that what God creates, is good.

And God said, “Let there be light”. These are the first words God utters and there is much we could say on this. However, for now let us just say that prior to Gods utterance, darkness was present, and the earth was void and without form.

Darkness is the absence of light, and formlessness is the absence of “bara”. It is worthy to note that “bara” is derived from nothingness.

When we look at what Isiah writes in regard to God creating darkness and evil, I believe Isiah is referencing Gods presence in His absence. And Isaiah words are within the broader context of Exile. After all, to this day you’ll never see the Jews struggle with wood and stone again. That is to say, “idols”. And this is good.
 

Seasoned by Grace

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If you had ever experienced God and His love, this topic wouldn't be here.

Why do people talk about what they imagine or surmise, and forget who God is?

It seems maybe when this happens it's because they never knew God, or their way of salvation isn't God's way and they have been given a delusional and reprobate mind.

2nd Thessalonians 2:10-11, …(10)and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. (11) For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, (12) in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.…

Romans 1:28 Context​


25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are an abomination; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Back to Matthew 7:14 "and only a few will see the Kingdom."
 

for_his_glory

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Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
 

stovebolts

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Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
I like what you wrote and how you tied it into Deuteronomy 27 and I would add 28.

Isaiah is a Jew and is writing to the Jews who received the 613 commandments to which Israel was willfully disobedient and by no since repentant. We choose life or we choose death, and in that since daninthelionsden was on track in his earlier post.

However, we need to be careful here because God does not create evil or calamity as a punishment, but rather he creates it by way of his absence for our salvation. We have all experienced exile and Israels exile which Isaiah writes about will finally free National Israel from her idols. As I said earlier, you’ll be hard pressed to see an idol in any Jewish community or household.
 
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