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God operating under the two covenants, and idolatry

I_love_Springtime

I_love_Springtime

Member
I was reading the first chapters of Jeremiah, and in Jer 11:11-14 God is telling Jeremiah that He won’t listen to the idolaters’ cries for mercy, and Jeremiah need not pray for them as they call out for help.

God is the same now as He was in those times – I do believe this.

Through the work and shed blood of Jesus, we can be forgiven for anything when we turn to Jesus for help and forgiveness. I believe even a person who has an addiction to giving his time, energy and money to feed his addictive idolatrous behavior, much like the Israelites who bowed to Baal, can be cleansed and forgiven during the dispensation of grace. That’s my opinion based on how I trust Jesus.

So what kept God from saving only a remnant of Israel, and not the mass of people who bowed their knee to Baal? There is either something about “bowing your knee to Baal” that I’m missing, or was God simply operating legally under the old covenant’s Law and demands, the decrees declared against them if they continued to disobey God?
 
DougK said:
So what kept God from saving only a remnant of Israel, and not the mass of people who bowed their knee to Baal?
Click to expand...
What kept God from saving those people was their refusal to repent.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Mat 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance,"
 
God established His laws and gave them to Moses to give to His people, but the mass of the people perferred their knees bowed to Baal instead of bowing before God and repenting of their sin.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
 
I disagree with both answers in a way, because they are not complete. God said he wouldn't hear their cries for mercy and/or help in the old testament verses of Jeremiah. Now aren't you glad you are not under the old covenant, and rather under the new covenant, where God hears the cries for mercy from people who are dead in their sins?

The ones who bowed to Baal were dead in their trespasses, unrepentant and uninterested in God, just like we are when Jesus finds us. But God's covenant with them was that disobedience demands punishment enough to destroy the people. God made a covenant with the people of Israel and they broke that covenant, so God held them accountable for that. When Jesus died and shed his blood, he made a better covenant in that God makes a new covenant with the people of the world, all of who would receive Him. Now, if we stumble into sin, we stumble but we don't fall away because the seed of the Word through Jesus' blood remains in us.

Now, in the day of grace, the order is not to repent while you're dead in sin and then receive life from the dead works of sin. It's receive life from Jesus from the dead works of sin, then put your sin away and repent. You can't produce works of repentance when you're dead!

It's simply that the covenant of Jesus Christ was a better covenant than the tablets of the law.
 
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Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Jesus does not seek after us as it is we who need to seek and find Jesus as we humble ourselves before Him with a heart of repentance as we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

People allow themselves to be separated from God and die in their sins as they would rather be disobedience to God's commands as they seek after their own idols. Idols are anything one puts above God. Colossians Chapter 3.

Only God knows the intent of the heart and who is truly crying out for mercy as they seek His grace.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are only made righteous by God's righteousness as we do not work for our salvation as grace is a free gift from God.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
DougK said:
God said he wouldn't hear their cries for mercy and/or help in the old testament
Click to expand...
What????
God regularly hears the cries for mercy.
Gen 29:33
Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, “Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also.” And she called his name Simeon.[fn]
Deu 5:28
“Then the LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me: ‘I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken.
Deu 10:10
“As at the first time, I stayed in the mountain forty days and forty nights; the LORD also heard me at that time, and the LORD chose not to destroy you.
1Ki 9:3
And the LORD said to him: “I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me;
2Ki 19:20
Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Because you have prayed to Me against Sennacherib king of Assyria, I have heard.'

And dozens more...
DougK said:
But God's covenant with them was that disobedience demands punishment enough to destroy the people.
Click to expand...
UNLESS THEY REPENTED
That's what the story of Jonah is about.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh to tell them that the Lord was going to destroy them in 10 days. But when they repented and cried out to the LOrd, He changed His mind and spared them.
for_his_glory said:
We are only made righteous by God's righteousness as we do not work for our salvation as grace is a free gift from God.
Click to expand...
If anyone's alleged faith is not accompanied by his good works then that person will not be saved. And doing the good works which God told us to do is a choice of every individual.
 
Faith without works is dead.

If you believe God is,you will show him by works abd fruits that you are truly loving him.not that He isn't all knowing.
 
Jim Parker said:
If anyone's alleged faith is not accompanied by his good works then that person will not be saved. And doing the good works which God told us to do is a choice of every individual.
Click to expand...
Sometimes those good works of obedience don't look so good to a human, even believers sadly.
 
DougK said:
Through the work and shed blood of Jesus, we can be forgiven for anything
Click to expand...
God has always forgiven anyone who would repent; even in the OT.
Psa 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered.
Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of the peace offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest's as a grain offering.
Lev 19:22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:25 So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their unintended sin.
Death is the wages of sin. (Ro 6:23)
What Jesus' death and resurrection did was to destroy the power of death.
1Co 15:52-57
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”(Isaiah 25:8)
“O Death, where is your sting?"
O Hades, where is your victory?” (Hosea 13:14)
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The difference between OT and NT.

In the OT, sin was forgiven when the sinner offered the proper sacrifice. The result was that he would be able to receive the blessings of the OT: that you live long in the promised land and that you prosper.
Deu 5:33 You shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess.
The blessings of the OT were earthly. (Wealth, property, children, long life, health)

In the NT: the blessing for the repentant sinner is Eternal life.
Rom 2:6-7 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
The blessing of the NT is Eternal Life.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
 
Jim Parker said:
God has always forgiven anyone who would repent; even in the OT.
Psa 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered.
Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of the peace offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest's as a grain offering.
Lev 19:22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:25 So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their unintended sin.
Death is the wages of sin. (Ro 6:23)
What Jesus' death and resurrection did was to destroy the power of death.
1Co 15:52-57
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”(Isaiah 25:8)
“O Death, where is your sting?"
O Hades, where is your victory?” (Hosea 13:14)
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The difference between OT and NT.

In the OT, sin was forgiven when the sinner offered the proper sacrifice. The result was that he would be able to receive the blessings of the OT: that you live long in the promised land and that you prosper.
Deu 5:33 You shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess.
The blessings of the OT were earthly. (Wealth, property, children, long life, health)

In the NT: the blessing for the repentant sinner is Eternal life.
Rom 2:6-7 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
The blessing of the NT is Eternal Life.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
Click to expand...
the idea of the blessed afterlife is given in several verses by moses, the book of life, job, and also david himself. its hidden but implied that they would see God if they were righteous.

remember the Pharisees taught a resurrection and while the saducees didn't. jesus didn't deny the pharisetical idea of one but corrected them about the idea of how many wifes the one man would have.
exodus 32:33.

revelation 20:12. the idea of that isn't all the different, just expounded in that vision of John. judged by how they lived in both cases.
 
Jim Parker said:
What????
God regularly hears the cries for mercy.
Gen 29:33
Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, “Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also.” And she called his name Simeon.[fn]
Deu 5:28
“Then the LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me: ‘I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken.
Deu 10:10
“As at the first time, I stayed in the mountain forty days and forty nights; the LORD also heard me at that time, and the LORD chose not to destroy you.
1Ki 9:3
And the LORD said to him: “I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me;
2Ki 19:20
Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Because you have prayed to Me against Sennacherib king of Assyria, I have heard.'

And dozens more...

UNLESS THEY REPENTED
That's what the story of Jonah is about.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh to tell them that the Lord was going to destroy them in 10 days. But when they repented and cried out to the LOrd, He changed His mind and spared them.

If anyone's alleged faith is not accompanied by his good works then that person will not be saved. And doing the good works which God told us to do is a choice of every individual.
Click to expand...

Jim Parker, Just read Jer 11:11-14. I still disagree with you because God said he would not listen to their cries for mercy, and don't pray for them. They broke the covenant. That's my point. The old covenant was not like the new covenant. God could have had mercy on their cries, as he did with Ninevah, but according to the covenant he made with his people, he would not. I don't believe this was an eternal punishment in the OT, but a covenant punishment. I'm trying to point out how different the two covenants were, and how much better the blood of Christ took away our sins than the blood of goats and bulls.
 
DougK said:
I still disagree with you
Click to expand...
You are not disagreeing with me.
You are disagreeing with scripture.
I posted some for you.
God never has never, and never will, refuse listen to the prayers of a truly repentant sinner or turn from him.

The Jeremiah passage you referenced was in the context of Judah's stubborn, repeated refusal to repent. So God kept His promise of the Old Covenant and sent them into exile.

Then, after 70 years of chastizement, He brought them back so they could try again.

You have extrapolated from that specific context and from those few sentences and attempted to make a concept to fit all contexts for all times. That is an exegetical error. (And a logical error as well)
In doing so you have overlooked the key characteristic of God which is His mercy.

The primary manner in which God interacts with mankind is, and has always been, His mercy.

2Ch 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways,
then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

That's how God deals with mankind. If man will repent, and God gives mankind plenty of time and lots of warnings, then He will mercifull forgive and reconcile us to Himself.
 
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God wanted to point out the terms of the covenant in Jer 11:1-14. They broke the covenant, and he declared the curses on them. Had they repented, they wouldn't have broke the covenant. But they did break it, and so he brought the curses on them, regardless of whether they would cry for mercy to God or not.

I'm not contradicting Scripture, I'm simply reading it and trying to understand if the people were trying to repent from idolatry by crying to God for mercy. Because the Scripture said God would not hear their cries for mercy.
 
DougK said:
They broke the covenant, and he declared the curses on them. Had they repented, they wouldn't have broke the covenant. But they did break it, and so he brought the curses on them, regardless of whether they would cry for mercy to God or not.
Click to expand...
At that time. The curses are not permanent; they are for correction so that they would repent.
That's why God returned them to Judah. They repented and he removed the curse. They returned and they rebuilt the temple.
DougK said:
I'm not contradicting Scripture, I'm simply reading it and trying to understand if the people were trying to repent from idolatry by crying to God for mercy. Because the Scripture said God would not hear their cries for mercy.
Click to expand...
The reason God would not listen to them is because the refused to repent after multiple prophets were sent to them to warn them to repent. Since they stubbornly refused to repent, God brought the cursed of the Law on them. THEN they cried out but it was too late. They would suffer the punishment so that they would learn from it and, when the punishment was completed, God would return them to the land.
 
DougK said:
I was reading the first chapters of Jeremiah, and in Jer 11:11-14 God is telling Jeremiah that He won’t listen to the idolaters’ cries for mercy, and Jeremiah need not pray for them as they call out for help.

God is the same now as He was in those times – I do believe this.

Through the work and shed blood of Jesus, we can be forgiven for anything when we turn to Jesus for help and forgiveness. I believe even a person who has an addiction to giving his time, energy and money to feed his addictive idolatrous behavior, much like the Israelites who bowed to Baal, can be cleansed and forgiven during the dispensation of grace. That’s my opinion based on how I trust Jesus.

So what kept God from saving only a remnant of Israel, and not the mass of people who bowed their knee to Baal? There is either something about “bowing your knee to Baal” that I’m missing, or was God simply operating legally under the old covenant’s Law and demands, the decrees declared against them if they continued to disobey God?
Click to expand...

Denying God who lead them out of Egypt and was a Father to them as in bowing down and following a false God is far worse then sinning against man. That is sinning against God.
Even in Christianity it is written if we deny/disown Jesus He will deny/disown us. To disown means you left. Not something you didn't ever believe in.
So the Isrelites disowned the living God who was like a Father to them and a blessing to them for false Gods. The remant was saved in order that Gods promises might not fail.
2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
.

And in the book of Rev those that worship the beast and take his mark earn the 2nd death.

Those that deny the Son before man Jesus will deny before the Father.
Matt 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Randy
 
DougK said:
Now, in the day of grace, the order is not to repent while you're dead in sin and then receive life from the dead works of sin. It's receive life from Jesus from the dead works of sin, then put your sin away and repent. You can't produce works of repentance when you're dead!

It's simply that the covenant of Jesus Christ was a better covenant than the tablets of the law.
Click to expand...

Only those who repent, turn to God, which is obeying the Gospel will be saved if they continue in the faith.


The call to repent is the grace of God extended to unbelievers and enemies of God who are under the power of Satan, to turn to Him, in which they turn away from Satan as their lord, by confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is the way a person is forgiven of their past sins and are translated out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of God, where all things have become new.




JLB
 
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