God operating under the two covenants, and idolatry

[MarkT]

I disagree with both answers in a way, because they are not complete. God said he wouldn't hear their cries for mercy and/or help in the old testament verses of Jeremiah. Now aren't you glad you are not under the old covenant, and rather under the new covenant, where God hears the cries for mercy from people who are dead in their sins?

The ones who bowed to Baal were dead in their trespasses, unrepentant and uninterested in God, just like we are when Jesus finds us. But God's covenant with them was that disobedience demands punishment enough to destroy the people. God made a covenant with the people of Israel and they broke that covenant, so God held them accountable for that. When Jesus died and shed his blood, he made a better covenant in that God makes a new covenant with the people of the world, all of who would receive Him. Now, if we stumble into sin, we stumble but we don't fall away because the seed of the Word through Jesus' blood remains in us.

Now, in the day of grace, the order is not to repent while you're dead in sin and then receive life from the dead works of sin. It's receive life from Jesus from the dead works of sin, then put your sin away and repent. You can't produce works of repentance when you're dead!

It's simply that the covenant of Jesus Christ was a better covenant than the tablets of the law.

The LORD said he was bringing evil upon the house of Judah and the house of Israel and the inhabitants of Jerusalem because they would not listen to his voice and do what he commanded them to do. So what's the significance of Jer. 11:14? They did what the covenant said they should not do. ie. they went after other gods to serve them, they set up alters to burn incense to Ba'al. So the LORD pronounced evil against them for their evil deeds. Jeremiah doesn't say anything about repenting or turning back or being forgiven. They're toast. This is an evil they cannot escape. Jer. 11:11

 

[Jim Parker]

Only those who repent, turn to God, which is obeying the Gospel will be saved if they continue in the faith.

Key phrases: "obeying the Gospel" and "if they continue in the faith."

The call to repent is the grace of God extended to unbelievers and enemies of God who are under the power of Satan, to turn to Him, in which they turn away from Satan as their lord, by confessing Jesus as Lord.

And not just "confessing" but, OBEYING. If some one is your LORD then you do what He says to do.
Luk 6:46 "But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"
Mat 28:18-20a Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

I know I'm always hammering on the idea that we are actually supposed to do the good works we were created to do. I must sound like a broken record. (Do people know what the means any more?) I do it because I hear too much of the "no works required" gospel which leads to "the great disappointment"** at judgment time.

**The "great disappointment" happens when you hear "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of iniquity." when you were expecting to hear, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Good post.

 

[jasonc]

I'm sure I I told my wife that I loved her,bit didn't show it ,she woukdnt believe it.yet it appears that some expect God to believe that .love is both words, and actions to back up the statement.ots that simple.

Of course one can sincerely confess ,die next but we can't all assume that will be us and ought to strive to please God and be more like Him

 

[MarkT]

So when Jesus arrived, they did not know him. God hardened their hearts so they could not hear and understand and be saved. Lest they turn to me and be forgiven.
Mark 4:12
so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”

Mt. 13:15, John 12:40 same idea.

John called them a brood of vipers. Jesus said they did not understand because they were of their father the devil.

 

[Jim Parker]

So when Jesus arrived, they did not know him. God hardened their hearts so they could not hear and understand and be saved. Lest they turn to me and be forgiven.
Mark 4:12
so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”

Mt. 13:15, John 12:40 same idea.

John called them a brood of vipers. Jesus said they did not understand because they were of their father the devil.

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[JLB]

I must sound like a broken record. (Do people know what the means any more?)

It means to hear His Voice and do what He says.


Obeying the truth.

Loving God by loving our bing our neighbor.


If our neighbor is is hungry, having no food, and we have plenty then we are to love our neighbor by giving them some food.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

To what post are you responding?
If you highlight the post (or part of a post) to which you want to reply then you will see a small, black window with the words "Quote | Reply".
Click on the word "Reply" and it will put the highlighted part in your reply and identify the person you are quoting.
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Thanks

Continuing from post 21 to Doug K

Thankyou for your insult Jim.

 

[Jim Parker]

If our neighbor is is hungry, having no food, and we have plenty then we are to love our neighbor by giving them some food.

Here's one for Christians to consider: Mormons (not Christian) fast one day a week and use the money they would have spent on food to provide food for the poor.
(or so I have been told...)

 

[Jim Parker]

Thankyou for your insult Jim.

No insult intended.
Just trying to help.
Have a nice day.

 

[MarkT]

No insult intended.
Just trying to help.
Have a nice day.

No problem Jim.

 

[I_love_Springtime]

Works is an outflow of the Spirit's work in your heart, not something you grit your teeth and do. The people who Jesus "never knew" are people who don't know Him personally and really trust him to deliver them in death.

 

[ezra]

I was reading the first chapters of Jeremiah, and in Jer 11:11-14 God is telling Jeremiah that He won’t listen to the idolaters’ cries for mercy, and Jeremiah need not pray for them as they call out for help.

God is the same now as He was in those times – I do believe this.

Through the work and shed blood of Jesus, we can be forgiven for anything when we turn to Jesus for help and forgiveness. I believe even a person who has an addiction to giving his time, energy and money to feed his addictive idolatrous behavior, much like the Israelites who bowed to Baal, can be cleansed and forgiven during the dispensation of grace. That’s my opinion based on how I trust Jesus.

So what kept God from saving only a remnant of Israel, and not the mass of people who bowed their knee to Baal? There is either something about “bowing your knee to Baal” that I’m missing, or was God simply operating legally under the old covenant’s Law and demands, the decrees declared against them if they continued to disobey God?

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,
there is no sin that God will not forgive . unless on dies in there sin never asking forgiveness

 

[I_love_Springtime]

Romans 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,
there is no sin that God will not forgive . unless on dies in there sin never asking forgiveness

I guess I just need someone to explain why God decided not to hear their cries for mercy. Isn't that a form of a heart turning to God in repentance? That's why I say, this was a consequence of a covenant promise between God and the nation of Israel. When the people broke the covenant and followed after other gods, after prophet time and again warned them, God declared the curses on them. And even if they turned to God and cried for help and mercy (after the curses were declared, I assume), God would not hear them, as Jeremiah wrote.

And so aren't we thankful we belong to Christ who gave us a better covenant with God? God has always been the same, but his covenant changed through Christ (most of the book of Hebrews).

 

[ezra]

why God decided not to hear their cries for mercy. Isn't that a form of a heart turning to God in repentance?

many things i dont understand . could the cry of mercies be just dont punish me but not sorrowful

 

[Jim Parker]

I guess I just need someone to explain why God decided not to hear their cries for mercy. Isn't that a form of a heart turning to God in repentance? That's why I say, this was a consequence of a covenant promise between God and the nation of Israel. When the people broke the covenant and followed after other gods, after prophet time and again warned them, God declared the curses on them. And even if they turned to God and cried for help and mercy (after the curses were declared, I assume), God would not hear them, as Jeremiah wrote.

And so aren't we thankful we belong to Christ who gave us a better covenant with God? God has always been the same, but his covenant changed through Christ (most of the book of Hebrews).

Anyone who stubbornly refuses to submit to God's will may get punished in this life so that they will turn from their sin and be saved.
If they refuse then hell awaits them.
That goes for professed Christians and everyone else.
Nothing significant has changed. God's chastisement is for our salvation. That was its purpose in the Old Covenant and it still is in the New Covenant.

Also from Hebrews:
Heb 12:7-11 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[chessman]

I guess I just need someone to explain why God decided not to hear their cries for mercy.

For their correction:

Correct me, O Lord, but with justice; Not with Your anger, or You will bring me to nothing.​

Jeremiah 10:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jeremiah 10:24&version=NASB

Correction for their own good:

Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.​

Jeremiah 24:4-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jeremiah 24:4-7&version=NASB

 

[MarkT]

I guess I just need someone to explain why God decided not to hear their cries for mercy. Isn't that a form of a heart turning to God in repentance? That's why I say, this was a consequence of a covenant promise between God and the nation of Israel. When the people broke the covenant and followed after other gods, after prophet time and again warned them, God declared the curses on them. And even if they turned to God and cried for help and mercy (after the curses were declared, I assume), God would not hear them, as Jeremiah wrote.

And so aren't we thankful we belong to Christ who gave us a better covenant with God? God has always been the same, but his covenant changed through Christ (most of the book of Hebrews).

The prophecy is the LORD will bring evil upon the house of Judah and the house of Israel and the inhabitants of Jerusalem which they can not escape, and they will cry out in the time of their trouble.

So they cry to God only after God brings the evil upon them. Sorry. Too late.

16 The Lord once called you, ‘A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit’; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed. 17 The Lord of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you, because of the evil which the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done, provoking me to anger by burning incense to Ba′al.” Jeremiah 11:16-17 RSV

I believe this is talking about when Jesus returns; the reference to branches being burned when he returns is Jesus' teaching. John 15:6

Like Abraham said to the rich man who was in anguish in Hades. Too late.

 

[for_his_glory]

Luke 19:10

I stand corrected, thank you

 

[for_his_glory]

Because the Scripture said God would not hear their cries for mercy.

In my understanding God will not hear the cries of anyone calling for mercy unless they repent of their evil ways and turn back to Him. Example: Look how many people that are in a plane that is going down. They cry out to God and then when they land safely they turn away from God just as quickly as they cried out to Him.

 

[MarkT]

I was reading the first chapters of Jeremiah, and in Jer 11:11-14 God is telling Jeremiah that He won’t listen to the idolaters’ cries for mercy, and Jeremiah need not pray for them as they call out for help.

God is the same now as He was in those times – I do believe this.

Through the work and shed blood of Jesus, we can be forgiven for anything when we turn to Jesus for help and forgiveness. I believe even a person who has an addiction to giving his time, energy and money to feed his addictive idolatrous behavior, much like the Israelites who bowed to Baal, can be cleansed and forgiven during the dispensation of grace. That’s my opinion based on how I trust Jesus.

So what kept God from saving only a remnant of Israel, and not the mass of people who bowed their knee to Baal? There is either something about “bowing your knee to Baal” that I’m missing, or was God simply operating legally under the old covenant’s Law and demands, the decrees declared against them if they continued to disobey God?

Why should God rescue any Ba'al worshippers? The idea is to keep evildoers out of the kingdom. Not save them.