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The "good" Samaritan did not help a complete stranger because he would receive compensation for it. The only money mentioned in the story was what the Samaritan would give; not what he would receive from his actions.
And pray tell where did this Samaritan get his money other than (a) working for someone or (b) working for himself by running a business? He was definitely not a beggar.

You have the mistaken idea that money is evil. But money is neutral -- a form of exchange. That's all. What you do with it is up to you. You can gamble it away or you can invest it in the work of the Kingdom.
 
Money is always needed to further God's Kingdom in the usual fashion.

You have been told that money is always needed. Always. All life revolves around you getting top dollar. You have seen it demonstrated in practical reality that no one will help one another without money. In your whole life mostly what you've seen are examples of people who will not help one another unless they get paid for it. You have seen first hand that it is really money which makes the world go round regardless of whatever lip service we may pay to the creator of the universe.

Talk of heaven and love and sacrifice and eternal salvation is all very pleasant. But deep down we know that in the real world it is money which causes us to survive. It is money which causes people to wake up in the morning. It is money which causes farmers to grow food. It is money which causes all manner of products to be made; a world full of people who work because they think they will starve if they don't, or worse, because they want more than what others are able to get.

Even the Kingdom of God, as you've suggested, becomes helpless without money. Money, money, money. Where would we be without it?
 
You can gamble it away or you can invest it in the work of the Kingdom.

Demand payment for your love so you can support the kingdom of love. That makes no sense. Or gamble it all away. What does God care, right? Because Jesus died for your sins you can just claim salvation and it's all rainbows for you. Talk some jargon about Paul making tents. Some skewed inerpreation that any reference to work in the bible necessarily means "for money". Recite some personal experience about how you stayed patient with your co-workers in the face of losing your material support. You're just trying to pay the bills, right? Take care of your family. No loving God would ever disagree with all your good intentions.

It's so difficult to communicate this kind of message. Jesus performed clear and obvious miracles and he still could not get through to most people. Think about the Lord's prayer; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. God doesn't help us because we pay him for it. Yes, this worldly system we live in is set up so that it is nigh impossible to work for love. Even on a supposedly christian forum the word work is equated with money, to the point that any suggestion that we should not work for money (but rather for love) is called support for the anti-christ.

It's depressing.
 
Eutopian societies have been tried ad nauseum. All failed miserably.
All were started by Christians. All failed.

All of the many eutopian societies tried to operate like what john darling suggested...all failed. People died and starved to death trying to create societies without money. Even the first settlement here in America started this way...but until they assigned plots of land to individuals instead of communal living they wouldn't have made it. Which is the story of Thanksgiving.

The government requires taxes...they gotta be paid or else you go to jail. And tax dollars pays for the residents of prison.

So someone pays john darling's bills. Someone buys his food. Someone pays his internet bill. Someone works to get the money that he despises...that's the system we work under.
Until we get to heaven that's the way the world works. Trying to circumvent that kills and destroys people...as has happened many many times in the past.
 
Money is just another means to exchange goods and services indirectly. Truth be told, if it wasn't for money, we would still be living as nomad tribes similar to how the Native Americans did when the Europeans first arrived on this continent. Money is not evil by itself. Man's greed is what is evil. If it wasn't money, then the greed would show up in how we bartered with each other. Yeah, I'll give you a bushel of the carrots I sowed and gathered in exchange for 12 bushels of your potatoes. Otherwise, eat your potatoes.
 
Hi all. Over on a couple different threads the topic of Jesus and money has come up consistently so it seems worth starting a thread dealing with just that one issue. To start things off, I'd like to post a short (12 minute) video which details the issue well, though I don't mind if you'd like to comment on the topic without watching the video. I'll paste a short explanation for the video below it, as well. Let me know what you think!


Most of us know that greed is a sin, but Jesus took it much further. He challenged our motivation for work. The New Testament says “covetousness is idolatry”. So the love of money and idols have much in common. God hates them both! Jesus says the ultimate choice is whether we are going to work for God, or work for the purpose of getting money.; we cannot serve God AND mammon at the same time. Which have you chosen: God or money? Maybe it's time to get a different employer!
John, have you found that new employer yet?
 
Demand payment for your love so you can support the kingdom of love. That makes no sense. Or gamble it all away. What does God care, right? Because Jesus died for your sins you can just claim salvation and it's all rainbows for you. Talk some jargon about Paul making tents. Some skewed inerpreation that any reference to work in the bible necessarily means "for money". Recite some personal experience about how you stayed patient with your co-workers in the face of losing your material support. You're just trying to pay the bills, right? Take care of your family. No loving God would ever disagree with all your good intentions.

It's so difficult to communicate this kind of message. Jesus performed clear and obvious miracles and he still could not get through to most people. Think about the Lord's prayer; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. God doesn't help us because we pay him for it. Yes, this worldly system we live in is set up so that it is nigh impossible to work for love. Even on a supposedly christian forum the word work is equated with money, to the point that any suggestion that we should not work for money (but rather for love) is called support for the anti-christ.

It's depressing.
I'm familiar with these discussions because i have had similar discussions with my brother. Currently, his hope is in automation where he envisions one day robots will do all our work for us and our days will be freed up to do as we desire.

I do understand your frustration, and if we apply some real world application, as Christians i think your right. We dont work for money. Instead, we work for love.

This doesn't mean we dont work to receive money but it does shift how we think about punching a time clock.

For instance, it is my responsibility to care for my children. I love my children and i want what's best for them. When I go to work, it's not for the paycheck. Instead, it's because I love God enough that i will be responsible with my paycheck and manage it in a Godly manner.

This means i pay my rent before going out to eat or getting the latest designer jeans for myself. It means if i have a choice between buying a part for my 68 Camaro or making sure my kids are fed and clothed, then my Camaro sits. Why? Because I'm managing my money with love.

Sometimes loving isn't easy. God knows I've been difficult to love at times. But we keep doing what's right in Gods eye and as a result, I've been married 23 years.

In similar fashion, going to work can sometimes be hard to love... Loving isn't always easy. But i go to work because my treasure is God, and my heart follows God most of the time. And God has a lot to say about managing material things, and if we live him enough to live under His direction, then much joy will follow.

I've always believed God blesses us to be a blessing to others. Ironically, 2 days after i purchased a new $47,000 truck, I was asked to move an addict on a week night. I've helped this man for years. I was the only one that would / could help him move. He is back in Prison and i purchase Christian books for him, and max his canteen so it's a bit better for him.

It's these material things that has allowed me and my wife to talk to him about God, and minister to him. And in part, it's because God is my treasure and i know I'm doing Gods work. The money is a tool, but it's not the product.
 
I'm familiar with these discussions because i have had similar discussions with my brother. Currently, his hope is in automation where he envisions one day robots will do all our work for us and our days will be freed up to do as we desire.

I do understand your frustration, and if we apply some real world application, as Christians i think your right. We dont work for money. Instead, we work for love.

This doesn't mean we dont work to receive money but it does shift how we think about punching a time clock.

For instance, it is my responsibility to care for my children. I love my children and i want what's best for them. When I go to work, it's not for the paycheck. Instead, it's because I love God enough that i will be responsible with my paycheck and manage it in a Godly manner.

This means i pay my rent before going out to eat or getting the latest designer jeans for myself. It means if i have a choice between buying a part for my 68 Camaro or making sure my kids are fed and clothed, then my Camaro sits. Why? Because I'm managing my money with love.

Sometimes loving isn't easy. God knows I've been difficult to love at times. But we keep doing what's right in Gods eye and as a result, I've been married 23 years.

In similar fashion, going to work can sometimes be hard to love... Loving isn't always easy. But i go to work because my treasure is God, and my heart follows God most of the time. And God has a lot to say about managing material things, and if we live him enough to live under His direction, then much joy will follow.

I've always believed God blesses us to be a blessing to others. Ironically, 2 days after i purchased a new $47,000 truck, I was asked to move an addict on a week night. I've helped this man for years. I was the only one that would / could help him move. He is back in Prison and i purchase Christian books for him, and max his canteen so it's a bit better for him.

It's these material things that has allowed me and my wife to talk to him about God, and minister to him. And in part, it's because God is my treasure and i know I'm doing Gods work. The money is a tool, but it's not the product.
Most of the production of a vehicle can be done by robots. Very little needs human hands involved. But the UAW fights a lot of those things.
 
Eutopian societies have been tried ad nauseum. All failed miserably.
All were started by Christians. All failed.

This is a pretty dishonest strategy for getting around the issue. The ideal of communal living does not fail. The principles on which it is based are sound and good. People fail, so you've taken those failures and said, "See! It doesn't work, so I'm gonna do it the worldly way and just pretend it's still Christianity". Using other people's failures as an excuse to do it your own way may seem legitimate to you, but God isn't stupid.
 
This is a pretty dishonest strategy for getting around the issue. The ideal of communal living does not fail. The principles on which it is based are sound and good. People fail, so you've taken those failures and said, "See! It doesn't work, so I'm gonna do it the worldly way and just pretend it's still Christianity". Using other people's failures as an excuse to do it your own way may seem legitimate to you, but God isn't stupid.
So even though it's cost hundreds of thousands of Christian lives, been tried hundreds of times (even in recent years) you believe that it doesn't matter it's what people should do eh?

You can assert that cyanide isn't poison all you want but until I see you drink some I ain't touching it.
 
I've always believed God blesses us to be a blessing to others. Ironically, 2 days after i purchased a new $47,000 truck, I was asked to move an addict on a week night. I've helped this man for years. I was the only one that would / could help him move. He is back in Prison and i purchase Christian books for him, and max his canteen so it's a bit better for him.

Sometimes doing the wrong thing for the right reason can be right in God's eyes. But that's not really what you're describing here. You're talking about service to mammon while slipping a payment to God here and there to make it all seem ok.

Here's a real-world example to show why this kind of argument just doesn't work. Revelation 13 talks about a Mark which will be used to control all buying and selling. Whatever ideas you may have about when the rapture will happen or what the Mark will look like, the fact is that its purpose will be to control all buying and selling. If you want to take care of your family, if you want to make your car payments, if you want to help that guy in prison, if you want to pay your taxes, if you want to put food on the table and pay all your bills, you will have to take the Mark.

According to the arguments you guys have been using so far, it should be okay for you to take the Mark because it's not like you will love it; you will only use it to feed your family and pay the bills. After all, if you don't work you shouldn't eat and a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an infidel, so you've got good reason to take the Mark. God will understand that you're just trying to be a good steward with the blessings he wants to give you and because he knows your heart, he won't blame you for just trying to take care of your family. You may even become a good witness to others who have taken the Mark but who use it selfishly. You can show them how to use it for love. If you don't take the Mark yourself, you wouldn't be able to reach them. They'd think you don't understand or that you think you're better than they are.

This doesn't mean we dont work to receive money but it does shift how we think about punching a time clock.

You can't have it both ways. If you're working for the purpose of getting something for your work, then you can't say that work is being done for love. Donations and sharing are fantastic ways to express the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, but if you decide that you will only work IF you get payment (of whatever kind) in return, then you'v gone beyond sharing into materialism.

Insisting that your service to mammon is really love because you will use a portion of it to help your family or a stranger in jail is self deception. At least be honest about what it is; if you didn't get paid you wouldn't do the work meaning the purpose for the work is to get money. You may be able to convince yourself that your arguments about it really being work for love are legit, but remember that you will stand before the inventor of all wisdom and knowledge and I doubt he will be fooled by it. It is not enough that you feel convinced; you must be able to convince him and according to the teachings of Jesus you're likely to be one of those people who said, "Lord, I've done many works in your name" and he will say, "I never knew you". The people in this example called him Lord and claimed to do works in his name. They believed they were saved. They had convinced themselves that the part-time help they offered to others here and there was good enough, while the bulk of their time was spent "working iniquity" which sounds pretty bad, but iniquity can be as simple as performing a normal, routine job for the wrong reason.

This argument appears only a few verses after his instructions about living by faith, where he says we cannot work for both God and money at the same time, and then launches into comments telling us to consider the birds and flowers because they do not work for money and yet God takes care of them. He says all the heathens of the world chase after money, but that we should not be like them. Instead, we should seek the kingdom of Heaven, first.

This means i pay my rent before going out to eat or getting the latest designer jeans for myself. It means if i have a choice between buying a part for my 68 Camaro or making sure my kids are fed and clothed, then my Camaro sits. Why? Because I'm managing my money with love.

Is the luxury car and designer jeans really what you think God wants you to spend your time and resources on after you've done the bare minimum of taking care of your own kid?

It's these material things that has allowed me and my wife to talk to him about God, and minister to him.

No one is saying that sharing is bad. It's actually a good thing to share with others. Are you familiar with the story of Samuel and King Saul who was commanded to destroy the Amalekites in toto? Saul did attack them and destroyed most of them, but brought the king, the best treasures, and the best animals back with him as a sacrifice for God. When Samuel heard about it he challenged Saul who tried to explain that he was just trying to do a good thing for God and Samuel told him, in essence, to shut up. He told him it is better to obey than to sacrifice. After that, God removed his favor from Saul. He was not impressed with Saul's explanations about sacrifice. He saw right through it, because he's not stupid.

What is the point of trying to help others if we are not willing to do it the way God wants us to do it? When you use these examples of the good you've done to justify your choices, it's like you're saying, "yes, Jesus did say that we cannot work for God and money at the same time, BUT Jesus didn't understand that we really can work for both at the same time because money is just a tool and as long as you don't love the money, and as long as you use a bit of it to help people here and there, then it's all good".

Here on this forum, and probably in your church, you're surrounded by people who will agree with you, because they all use the same arguments. You may feel emboldened by this support. You probably feel it is confirmation that you really are on the right track. I understand the sense of comfort that agreement with others can bring.

But when you stand before God you will do so as an individual. God will ask you what you did with the teachings of his son. He will not care about what Paul did or said. He will not care about what your pastors told you. He will not care about what other people on this forum, what your wife, or your kids said to you. And when you try to explain to him that you spent your life in service to mammon because money makes the world go round he will not be impressed.

You are taking a huge risk with these flimsy arguments. The teachings of Jesus will change us. They will cause us to confront our fears. They will cause us to confront our greed. They will cause us to reevaluate everything. Jesus likened obedience to falling on a rock and being broken. It's not a particularly pleasant analogy, but it is an apt description of the kind of feelings and discomfort we feel when we're forced to look at ourselves in the light of Jesus' standards.
 
Sometimes doing the wrong thing for the right reason can be right in God's eyes. But that's not really what you're describing here. You're talking about service to mammon while slipping a payment to God here and there to make it all seem ok.

Here's a real-world example to show why this kind of argument just doesn't work. Revelation 13 talks about a Mark which will be used to control all buying and selling. Whatever ideas you may have about when the rapture will happen or what the Mark will look like, the fact is that its purpose will be to control all buying and selling. If you want to take care of your family, if you want to make your car payments, if you want to help that guy in prison, if you want to pay your taxes, if you want to put food on the table and pay all your bills, you will have to take the Mark.

According to the arguments you guys have been using so far, it should be okay for you to take the Mark because it's not like you will love it; you will only use it to feed your family and pay the bills. After all, if you don't work you shouldn't eat and a man who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an infidel, so you've got good reason to take the Mark. God will understand that you're just trying to be a good steward with the blessings he wants to give you and because he knows your heart, he won't blame you for just trying to take care of your family. You may even become a good witness to others who have taken the Mark but who use it selfishly. You can show them how to use it for love. If you don't take the Mark yourself, you wouldn't be able to reach them. They'd think you don't understand or that you think you're better than they are.



You can't have it both ways. If you're working for the purpose of getting something for your work, then you can't say that work is being done for love. Donations and sharing are fantastic ways to express the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, but if you decide that you will only work IF you get payment (of whatever kind) in return, then you'v gone beyond sharing into materialism.

Insisting that your service to mammon is really love because you will use a portion of it to help your family or a stranger in jail is self deception. At least be honest about what it is; if you didn't get paid you wouldn't do the work meaning the purpose for the work is to get money. You may be able to convince yourself that your arguments about it really being work for love are legit, but remember that you will stand before the inventor of all wisdom and knowledge and I doubt he will be fooled by it. It is not enough that you feel convinced; you must be able to convince him and according to the teachings of Jesus you're likely to be one of those people who said, "Lord, I've done many works in your name" and he will say, "I never knew you". The people in this example called him Lord and claimed to do works in his name. They believed they were saved. They had convinced themselves that the part-time help they offered to others here and there was good enough, while the bulk of their time was spent "working iniquity" which sounds pretty bad, but iniquity can be as simple as performing a normal, routine job for the wrong reason.

This argument appears only a few verses after his instructions about living by faith, where he says we cannot work for both God and money at the same time, and then launches into comments telling us to consider the birds and flowers because they do not work for money and yet God takes care of them. He says all the heathens of the world chase after money, but that we should not be like them. Instead, we should seek the kingdom of Heaven, first.



Is the luxury car and designer jeans really what you think God wants you to spend your time and resources on after you've done the bare minimum of taking care of your own kid?



No one is saying that sharing is bad. It's actually a good thing to share with others. Are you familiar with the story of Samuel and King Saul who was commanded to destroy the Amalekites in toto? Saul did attack them and destroyed most of them, but brought the king, the best treasures, and the best animals back with him as a sacrifice for God. When Samuel heard about it he challenged Saul who tried to explain that he was just trying to do a good thing for God and Samuel told him, in essence, to shut up. He told him it is better to obey than to sacrifice. After that, God removed his favor from Saul. He was not impressed with Saul's explanations about sacrifice. He saw right through it, because he's not stupid.

What is the point of trying to help others if we are not willing to do it the way God wants us to do it? When you use these examples of the good you've done to justify your choices, it's like you're saying, "yes, Jesus did say that we cannot work for God and money at the same time, BUT Jesus didn't understand that we really can work for both at the same time because money is just a tool and as long as you don't love the money, and as long as you use a bit of it to help people here and there, then it's all good".

Here on this forum, and probably in your church, you're surrounded by people who will agree with you, because they all use the same arguments. You may feel emboldened by this support. You probably feel it is confirmation that you really are on the right track. I understand the sense of comfort that agreement with others can bring.

But when you stand before God you will do so as an individual. God will ask you what you did with the teachings of his son. He will not care about what Paul did or said. He will not care about what your pastors told you. He will not care about what other people on this forum, what your wife, or your kids said to you. And when you try to explain to him that you spent your life in service to mammon because money makes the world go round he will not be impressed.

You are taking a huge risk with these flimsy arguments. The teachings of Jesus will change us. They will cause us to confront our fears. They will cause us to confront our greed. They will cause us to reevaluate everything. Jesus likened obedience to falling on a rock and being broken. It's not a particularly pleasant analogy, but it is an apt description of the kind of feelings and discomfort we feel when we're forced to look at ourselves in the light of Jesus' standards.
John, maybe what you're preaching would be better understood if you could share how your life is a living example. I think I understand what you're trying to say but part of me thinks you are neglecting part of Scripture in order to support your view.
 
we should not work for money (but rather for love) is called support for the anti-christ.
Your entire post makes absolutely no sense (especially this little tid-bit). People work for money so that they can be free to express their love for God and others. The Samaritan you referred to had to work for his money so that he could be a good neighbor. Every Christian has to work in order to earn a living and then live out his faith.
 
So even though it's cost hundreds of thousands of Christian lives, been tried hundreds of times (even in recent years) you believe that it doesn't matter it's what people should do eh?

The ideal is to obey Jesus. If you want to look at all the failures and conclude that obedience to Jesus just doesn't work, that's on you, but don't try to pretend such a stance can still be called Christianity.

When you stand before God, he will not care how many people you point the finger at. He will ask what you did with his teachings.
 
John, maybe what you're preaching would be better understood if you could share how your life is a living example.

No, that will not help you to better understand, because I am not the one causing any confusion here. It is a recurring theme (which I've tried before) that when people who disagree with my position want me to talk about myself, they invariably find something wrong and use me as an excuse to disregard the message. Of course, I cannot stop you from disregarding the message, but I'd rather not be included in the list of reasons for why you do so.

This topic is about the values of the Kingdom of Heaven and is not difficult to understand. You only need to stop holding on to the idea that money is what makes the world go round and the confusion will dissipate. This is precisely why Jesus said we cannot work for two masters. He was not suggesting a preference or commenting on whom you should love more. These two masters operate on opposite principles. It is not possible to serve them both without cheating on one or the other.

If you work for the purpose of material gain (i.e. money) then you cannot say that you are working for God or love. You can use your own families as an example. You do not charge your family for the chores you perform around the house. You do not charge your family a fee to drive them from place to place or to help them with their problems. Why? Because you love them. Charging them a fee would demonstrate a different dynamic to the relationship.

But the Kingdom of Heaven is bigger than just a few family members. We are all meant to be brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven. When you say that you will not charge your family a fee because you love them, the implication (which most people usually choose to ignore) is that you will charge a fee to others because they are not your family. As such, you do not love them so you do not see any problem with demanding payment from them.

Jesus even went so far as to say we'd love one and hate the other. This is a pointer back to the principle. As people have said, the money itself is not the problem. The record shows that Jesus and his band had a purse. The disciples asked if they should buy food for the masses. Jesus said sell what you have, give to the poor, and follow after him. The early Christians sold what they had, laid the profits at the feet of the church leaders, and those leaders distributed the material resources according to every person's needs so that no one lacked anything.

The core issue is motivation. Why do we do the work we do? This is why I was so surprised when JohnDB confessed that he solely works for money, (and for top dollar at that). It was a shockingly honest answer.

Then StoveBolts intervened, gently reminding him that he needed to include at least a little theological dressing to his statement to give it a softer, more spiritually inclined facade.

JohnDB said:
Well I have a job solely to make money. I don't do it for love or anything else but money... and I make sure that I get top dollar for it.

Now, if i didn't know you and took your words at face value, i might assume the same thing as he (john darling) did.

However, i do know you and i know your character and i think your so humble, you don't realize how giving you actually are.

In order to cover for JohnDB's shocking honesty, StoveBolts literally says that JohnDB's comments shouldn't be taken at face value. When JohnDB admits to soley working for the purpose of getting money and not for love, we shouldn't believe him. JohnDB gets the hint...

Well yeah...I love giving...it's one of my favorite things to do. I wish I could give more than I use. Not to be though.

And to do all the giving I do...it takes money. Lots of money. I have to get top dollar for my labor.

So, he works soley for the purpose of getting top dollar and not for love. He was quite clear about that. But then he works for top dollar because he's such a generous guy and it really is all about love. I prefer the first JohnDB. It is the second JohnDB who should not be taken at face value.
 
No, that will not help you to better understand, because I am not the one causing any confusion here. It is a recurring theme (which I've tried before) that when people who disagree with my position want me to talk about myself, they invariably find something wrong and use me as an excuse to disregard the message. Of course, I cannot stop you from disregarding the message, but I'd rather not be included in the list of reasons for why you do so.

This topic is about the values of the Kingdom of Heaven and is not difficult to understand. You only need to stop holding on to the idea that money is what makes the world go round and the confusion will dissipate. This is precisely why Jesus said we cannot work for two masters. He was not suggesting a preference or commenting on whom you should love more. These two masters operate on opposite principles. It is not possible to serve them both without cheating on one or the other.

If you work for the purpose of material gain (i.e. money) then you cannot say that you are working for God or love. You can use your own families as an example. You do not charge your family for the chores you perform around the house. You do not charge your family a fee to drive them from place to place or to help them with their problems. Why? Because you love them. Charging them a fee would demonstrate a different dynamic to the relationship.

But the Kingdom of Heaven is bigger than just a few family members. We are all meant to be brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven. When you say that you will not charge your family a fee because you love them, the implication (which most people usually choose to ignore) is that you will charge a fee to others because they are not your family. As such, you do not love them so you do not see any problem with demanding payment from them.

Jesus even went so far as to say we'd love one and hate the other. This is a pointer back to the principle. As people have said, the money itself is not the problem. The record shows that Jesus and his band had a purse. The disciples asked if they should buy food for the masses. Jesus said sell what you have, give to the poor, and follow after him. The early Christians sold what they had, laid the profits at the feet of the church leaders, and those leaders distributed the material resources according to every person's needs so that no one lacked anything.

The core issue is motivation. Why do we do the work we do? This is why I was so surprised when JohnDB confessed that he solely works for money, (and for top dollar at that). It was a shockingly honest answer.

Then StoveBolts intervened, gently reminding him that he needed to include at least a little theological dressing to his statement to give it a softer, more spiritually inclined facade.



In order to cover for JohnDB's shocking honesty, StoveBolts literally says that JohnDB's comments shouldn't be taken at face value. When JohnDB admits to soley working for the purpose of getting money and not for love, we shouldn't believe him. JohnDB gets the hint...



So, he works soley for the purpose of getting top dollar and not for love. He was quite clear about that. But then he works for top dollar because he's such a generous guy and it really is all about love. I prefer the first JohnDB. It is the second JohnDB who should not be taken at face value.
Someone once told me that the best leader is one who is willing to go where he expects his followers to go. Jesus gave us a wonderful example of this.

By starting this thread and taking it in the direction you have, you have taken on the position of a leader so I'm asking you to show me that you in fact are doing what Jesus' example shows us, that is, you are going where you are asking your readers to go.

Your deception with regard to these questions is telltale enough that I'm beginning to think you may be just blowing smoke or giving lip service. I'm asking you to help change my mind about that.

There is plenty of Scripture that I'm struggling to reconciled with your teaching so I'm getting the impression that you are neglecting to take the whole of Scripture in your understanding. I could be wrong so I'm asking you to show me not only by your words but by your actions, which would also be Scriptural.

If I may, and I don't mean to insult, but in all honesty when I read your posts, I can't help but picture a preacher with his lavish $1,000.00 tuxedo arriving in his new Porsche, surrounded by a plethora of body guards and lights and glitter and preaching about the ills of money. I don't like the image and would like to change it.
 
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Your entire post makes absolutely no sense (especially this little tid-bit).

I think it doesn't make sense to you because you've misunderstand the context of that tidbit. The tidbit you selected is based on an series of exchanges which started from post# 10 of this thread. JohnDB said he thought the message in the video was AntiChrist.

I asked him to explain how he thought a God or money topic could be AntiChrist, but I'm guessing he realized that'd be a losing strategy so he just ignored it. If he's interested, I'd still like to hear his explanation for that.
 
Your deception with regard to these questions is telltale enough that I'm beginning to think you may be just blowing smoke or giving lip service. I'm asking you to help change my mind about that.

The most reliable way to know if/when someone has a problem with the love of money is to talk about the teachings of Jesus. Instead, they will talk about Paul. They will talk about their family. They will talk about personal experiences. They will talk about the person asking to talk about Jesus.

Their reluctance to talk about the teachings of Jesus, their disdain for anyone who does insist that Jesus be the sole focus, and their stubborn insistence that life would be impossible without service to money is evidence of the problem.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Look carefully. He did not say it is a heart issue. He said you cannot do it. You may convince yourself that you can, but to what end? "God, even though I spent my life in service to mammon, I still put you first in my heart". God won't be impressed with that kind of argument because he isn't stupid. He will say, "I told you it doesn't work like that!"

When you say it is a heart issue, the implication is that Jesus just didn't understand that you really can serve both, so long as God is the most important in your heart. I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when he said,

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

When we try to explain-away Jesus' teachings, we show that we are ashamed of them.

Or this one:

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 14:33-35

When you take the salty sting away from Jesus' teachings, you make it useless. All this stuff about what's in your heart etc is a huge risk you're taking with your eternal soul.

Consider the example of Nebuchadnezzar wanting people to bow to his statue. Three men risked their lives to withstand his decree. They could have said, "Let's just go through the motion of bowing to make him happy, but in our heart we will know that we're actually bowing to the real God".

Compare that with the argument you guys are using: "Let's just go through the motions of serving mammon so that we can feed ourselves, but in our heart we'll know that we're actually serving God".

It's a self deception for the sake of convenience when we use this argument. You are playing games with the creator of the universe when you do this. If you believe Jesus then you should believe he's serious when he says his teachings will judge you. John 12:48.
 
The most reliable way to know if/when someone has a problem with the love of money is to talk about the teachings of Jesus. Instead, they will talk about Paul. They will talk about their family. They will talk about personal experiences. They will talk about the person asking to talk about Jesus.

Their reluctance to talk about the teachings of Jesus, their disdain for anyone who does insist that Jesus be the sole focus, and their stubborn insistence that life would be impossible without service to money is evidence of the problem.



Look carefully. He did not say it is a heart issue. He said you cannot do it. You may convince yourself that you can, but to what end? "God, even though I spent my life in service to mammon, I still put you first in my heart". God won't be impressed with that kind of argument because he isn't stupid. He will say, "I told you it doesn't work like that!"

When you say it is a heart issue, the implication is that Jesus just didn't understand that you really can serve both, so long as God is the most important in your heart. I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when he said,



When we try to explain-away Jesus' teachings, we show that we are ashamed of them.

Or this one:



When you take the salty sting away from Jesus' teachings, you make it useless. All this stuff about what's in your heart etc is a huge risk you're taking with your eternal soul.

Consider the example of Nebuchadnezzar wanting people to bow to his statue. Three men risked their lives to withstand his decree. They could have said, "Let's just go through the motion of bowing to make him happy, but in our heart we will know that we're actually bowing to the real God".

Compare that with the argument you guys are using: "Let's just go through the motions of serving mammon so that we can feed ourselves, but in our heart we'll know that we're actually serving God".

It's a self deception for the sake of convenience when we use this argument. You are playing games with the creator of the universe when you do this. If you believe Jesus then you should believe he's serious when he says his teachings will judge you. John 12:48.
If you read back through this thread you'll find that I have already indicated that it was possible to live life without money. I gave three examples of such lives.

Serving money or valuing money before God is one thing but using money as a tool of trade is something entirely different. But let's let Jesus do the talking.

Mark 12:13-17 NKJV
13 Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words. 14 When they had come, they said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? 15 Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?” But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it.” 16 So they brought it. And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” 17 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at Him.

Jesus didn't say the taxes were to be ignored. He said, "Pay to Caesar what is due."

Matthew 17:24-27 NKJV
24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?” 25 He said, “Yes.” And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?” 26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”

Here's an example of Jesus paying tax using money.
 
Here's another problem to which I alluded to earlier. Money is just a tool of trade. If we didn't have money, what then? Those who value money more than God would value goods and services more than God. And to take it to the level you have been with regard to money, all goods and services no matter how attained would be idols and therefore it would be sinful to grow food or make clothing for ourselves or build a shelter of any kind. Is this what you are saying Jesus means?

But then Scripture also tells us that we are to be in this world but not of this world. How do we reconcile this as well?
 
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