Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved

SolaScriptura

Member
From
England
Gender
Male
Messages
201
Joined
Jul 20, 2021
"1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2)

Here we have one of the clearest passages in the Bible, for the Universal Death for the Salvation of the entire human race. This is known as "pontential" salvation.

In every instance in this passage, the word "ALL", refers, not, as some teach, to just an "elect" few, but the whole human race. The "ALL men", here include "ALL those in authority", as kings and other leaders. There is no restriction here that this is limited to only a few leaders, but ALL. Then Paul informs us, that it is "good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior", that we pray for this, because God, "DESIRES" the salvation of ALL MEN, those ALL mentioned earlier. Further, we read that Jesus Christ is the "Mediator between God and men,", that is, the ALL MEN in this passage, the human race. It then says that Jesus Christ, "gave Himself a ransom for all", the same ALL in this entire passage.

No honest, Bible-believing Christian can take these words in any other way, unless for theological bias, than for what it very plainly says, that God desires (wills) that the whole human race were saved. This is exactly what the Apostle John says in his Gospel, 3:16.

This is the heart of the God of the Holy Bible. Yet there are some who oppose this.
 

Who Me

Member
From
London England
Gender
Male
Messages
1,787
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
It is helpfull if one looks at every reference before formulating ones theology.

Yes God desires that All men be saved, but it is clear fron scripture that Not all men will be saved.

So there is a question.

Is God not in control of who is saved?

and

How do you account for the verses that say that God chose those who would be saved.
'For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ' Eph 1:4
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,693
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Jesus did die that all who will believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. It is we who are in Christ and He in us that pray the prayers of supplication as we intercede for humankind that have turned from God, as we give thanks to God for the finished works of His only begotten Son Christ Jesus who made atonement once and for all that our sins can be forgiven if we would in all humility humble ourselves before Him.

'For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ' Eph 1:4

Notice this verse says before the creation of the world. God had in mind when He created humankind that they would be holy and blameless before Him. God created man for His good pleasure, but man falling to temptation have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord. Many will return back to Him, but many will also reject Him that will not have eternal life with Him.
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
It is helpfull if one looks at every reference before formulating ones theology.

How do you account for the verses that say that God chose those who would be saved.
'For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ' Eph 1:4
The same way that you account for verses showing Jesus urging people who are already chosen before creation, to come to a place of Spiritual discovery and have a revelation of Himself .
How do you account for Jesus challenging the already saved to become saved ?
There answer is that there is no accounting for it from our perspective .
The mind of God is not our mind , and His ways are not our ways , despite the insistence of some that they have God completely figured out .
It is akin to ants on the ground supposing they know what a human is up to .
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Where does Jesus do that?
Jesus Challenging Nicodemus, someone supposedly already chosen from before the creation of the world, to make a Spiritual choice and be born again ?
If Nicodemus has already been chosen/predestined why is Jesus imploring him to make a choice ?
What is point of this redundancy ?
 

Who Me

Member
From
London England
Gender
Male
Messages
1,787
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Jesus Challenging Nicodemus, someone supposedly already chosen from before the creation of the world, to make a Spiritual choice and be born again ?
If Nicodemus has already been chosen/predestined why is Jesus imploring him to make a choice ?
What is point of this redundancy ?
Ever person who Gad has chosen has to react and accept the offer of salvation.
Being predestined does not make robots out of people.
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Ever person who Gad has chosen has to react and accept the offer of salvation.
Being predestined does not make robots out of people.
But being preordained by God Himself, who cannot lie, to accept salvation from before the foundation of the world it is not possible for Nicodemus to refuse the offer.
How so ?
 

Doug Brents

Member
From
Atlanta, GA
Gender
Male
Messages
283
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
"1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2)

Here we have one of the clearest passages in the Bible, for the Universal Death for the Salvation of the entire human race. This is known as "pontential" salvation.

In every instance in this passage, the word "ALL", refers, not, as some teach, to just an "elect" few, but the whole human race. The "ALL men", here include "ALL those in authority", as kings and other leaders. There is no restriction here that this is limited to only a few leaders, but ALL. Then Paul informs us, that it is "good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior", that we pray for this, because God, "DESIRES" the salvation of ALL MEN, those ALL mentioned earlier. Further, we read that Jesus Christ is the "Mediator between God and men,", that is, the ALL MEN in this passage, the human race. It then says that Jesus Christ, "gave Himself a ransom for all", the same ALL in this entire passage.

No honest, Bible-believing Christian can take these words in any other way, unless for theological bias, than for what it very plainly says, that God desires (wills) that the whole human race were saved. This is exactly what the Apostle John says in his Gospel, 3:16.

This is the heart of the God of the Holy Bible. Yet there are some who oppose this.
You are correct that this passage refers to all humanity of all time everywhere that God desires saved.
Yet Jesus said that the vast majority of humanity will be lost.
The only conclusion then, is that another will is at work in opposition to God’s will. This will is not stronger than God’s will, but God has allowed that will to subvert our souls and keep them from His salvation.
That will begins with Satan, and, because of his influence, is also found in the will of our flesh.
 

SolaScriptura

Member
From
England
Gender
Male
Messages
201
Joined
Jul 20, 2021
You are correct that this passage refers to all humanity of all time everywhere that God desires saved.
Yet Jesus said that the vast majority of humanity will be lost.
The only conclusion then, is that another will is at work in opposition to God’s will. This will is not stronger than God’s will, but God has allowed that will to subvert our souls and keep them from His salvation.
That will begins with Satan, and, because of his influence, is also found in the will of our flesh.

Don't forget that people still have a free will, and choose to reject the Gospel Message for their salvation.

and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

You don’t have his word living in you, because you don’t believe him whom he sent. “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life. John 5:38-40

Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, and said, “It was necessary that God’s word should be spoken to you first. Since indeed you thrust it from yourselves, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles Acts 13:46

If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh.” Joshua 24:15

etc, etc
 

Who Me

Member
From
London England
Gender
Male
Messages
1,787
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
But being preordained by God Himself, who cannot lie, to accept salvation from before the foundation of the world it is not possible for Nicodemus to refuse the offer.
How so ?

Who is in control, God or man?

Just because God planned everything before creation does not mean that his plan involves only one opportunity to be saved?
 

Doug Brents

Member
From
Atlanta, GA
Gender
Male
Messages
283
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
Don't forget that people still have a free will, and choose to reject the Gospel Message for their salvation.

and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

You don’t have his word living in you, because you don’t believe him whom he sent. “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life. John 5:38-40

Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, and said, “It was necessary that God’s word should be spoken to you first. Since indeed you thrust it from yourselves, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles Acts 13:46

If it seems evil to you to serve Yahweh, choose today whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh.” Joshua 24:15

etc, etc
Absolutely we have free will. And because of that we have the ability to reject God’s call. That is why, in the parable, the man was invited into the wedding, but when he was found without wedding cloths, was thrown “into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Hell).
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Absolutely we have free will. And because of that we have the ability to reject God’s call. That is why, in the parable, the man was invited into the wedding, but when he was found without wedding cloths, was thrown “into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Hell).
For me this is more a teaching of not " rejecting " God's call in an honest forthright way , but a teaching of those putting up a pretense of accepting God's call which of course can easily deceive other Christians, but by no means can deceive God .
Scripture teaches us that even mighty men of God such as Paul can be deceived by false Christians .
When Paul was first imprisoned in Rome he wrote of the faith of Demas :
" Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you ." ( Acts 28:30 )

As well as in Colossians 4:14, he wrote:
"Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus greets you, as do Mark
Aristarchus, Demas, Luke my fellow laborers ."

Yet in a final tragic note on this individual Paul writes in,( 2 Timothy 4:10 ) :
" Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world "
This Demas is never mentioned in scripture again .
 
Last edited:

Doug Brents

Member
From
Atlanta, GA
Gender
Male
Messages
283
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
For me this is more a teaching of not " rejecting " God's call in an honest forthright way , but a teaching of those putting up a pretense of accepting God's call which of course can easily deceive other Christians, but by no means can deceive God .
Scripture teaches us that even mighty men of God such as Paul can be deceived by false Christians .
When Paul was first imprisoned in Rome he wrote of the faith of Demas :
" Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you ." ( Acts 28:30 )

As well as in Colossians 4:14, he wrote:
"Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus greets you, as do Mark
Aristarchus, Demas, Luke my fellow laborers ."

Yet in a final tragic note on this individual Paul writes in,( 2 Timothy 4:10 ) :
" Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world "
This Demas is never mentioned in scripture again .
It is all well and good for you to see it how ever you want to see it, but God is clear in Heb 6:4-6 that some are not pretending. They really do accept Christ and really are saved, but they turn their backs on God and crucify again our Lord. This is not to say there aren’t those who come in as wolves in sheep’s clothing, but there are some who were sheep at one point but they turn from God and become goats.
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
It is all well and good for you to see it how ever you want to see it, but God is clear in Heb 6:4-6 that some are not pretending. They really do accept Christ and really are saved, but they turn their backs on God and crucify again our Lord. This is not to say there aren’t those who come in as wolves in sheep’s clothing, but there are some who were sheep at one point but they turn from God and become goats.
So how can we identify & distinguish between those who are actual "sheep " and those pretending to be ?
 

Doug Brents

Member
From
Atlanta, GA
Gender
Male
Messages
283
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
How would the fruit of a pretending sheep be different?
You cannot always tell from the actions themselves. The telling trait is the attitude and goal that the doer has behind his action.

For example; a guy sees an old lady carrying a large load and trying to cross a busy road. He takes the package from her and escorts her across safely, and when she offers to pay him for his trouble, he refuses to accept.

This guy did a great, loving, Godly thing, right? But what you don’t know is that he saw his boss, and noticed that his boss saw him, so he hurried over to help the lady so his boss could see him do it. Now is it a good thing? Not so much.

And a wolf in sheep’s cloths will be teaching false doctrines and dividing the flock.
 
From
new york
Gender
Male
Messages
228
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
You cannot always tell from the actions themselves. The telling trait is the attitude and goal that the doer has behind his action.

For example; a guy sees an old lady carrying a large load and trying to cross a busy road. He takes the package from her and escorts her across safely, and when she offers to pay him for his trouble, he refuses to accept.

This guy did a great, loving, Godly thing, right? But what you don’t know is that he saw his boss, and noticed that his boss saw him, so he hurried over to help the lady so his boss could see him do it. Now is it a good thing? Not so much.

And a wolf in sheep’s cloths will be teaching false doctrines and dividing the flock.
Yes, but who would perceive the motivation behind the scenario you just laid out except for God, the man himself , & maybe the boss ?
No one else would be privy to the details .
The vast majority would perceive this as " good Fruit " .
 
Top