God's Conditional Grace

[Ernest T. Bass]

Some are under the wrong impression that God's grace must be unconditional else man would be trying to earn grace by "working" a condition. Is that the case?


Namaan was told to dip in the Jordan river 7 times and he would be cleansed of his disease.

1) it's undeniable that his cleansing was of grace

2) it's undeniable that he had to "work", i.e., meet the condition of dipping in the river


So who would argue he earned or merited his healing and it was not of God's unmerited favor/grace?


Jesus once spat on the ground creating a mixture he put in a blind man's eyes. Jesus then instructs the man to go and wash his eyes in a pool of water. When the man did as Jesus said he gained his sight.

1) it's undeniable his healing was of grace

2) it's undeniable he had to "work", meet the condition of washing his eyes in the pool.

So who would argue his healing was earned and not of grace?



When it comes to salvation God's grace has always been conditional. For us to be saved, receiving God's grace is conditional upon us believing, Jn 3:16; repenting, Lk 13:3,5; confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10; and being water baptized, Mk 16:16. Many will falsely accuse me of having a 'works based salvation' where I am trying to earn salvation whereby salvation is of debt and not of grace. Yet will these same people accuse Namman or the blind man of earning their healing and it was not of grace when they met conditions?

 

[ivdavid]

Do you see a difference between the Old covenant and the New covenant - a difference between Lev 18:5 and Eze 36:27 ?

Works are always caused - either by man's self nature/flesh or by God's nature in man. When God works in man to will and to do of His good pleasure - He fulfills all the conditionals that we ought to have done by our own self natures but which we didn't and deserved condemnation for - such condemnation being averted by grace alone.

Our God is a process-oriented God. While He could regenerate just about anyone in a moment and translate them into His Kingdom in a flash - it would defeat His purpose of having them grow in their knowledge of His glory. The fact that He sets up a process is undeniable - the fact that He Himself causes us and preserves us to keep in His way is the doctrine of grace which is why we do have faith in Him and what He does in us and not in the arm of the flesh - such faith itself being the gift of grace. On the contrary, what goodness or love towards God can you expect from the flesh?

You must not mistaken God's process of salvation by grace with it becoming conditional upon man - that was the old covenant. What conditionals upon man do you see in Eze 36:23-28? And yet, wouldn't you agree that each of those events of that process are to be fulfilled before God's work of salvation can be said to be complete?

Grace includes the gifting of faith, the convicting unto confession, the granting of repentance and the filling of power, peace and joy. We are called to Christian liberty - conditionals upon the flesh are what kept us in bondage to sin and death, not because of the conditionals themselves but because of the exceeding sinfulness of sin in our flesh. Why must we still remain under the law and frustrate the grace of God?

 

[Eventide]

For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

Excellent commentary.. and once again imo this comes down to a vital distinction between Israel (an earthly entity with many earthly ordinances, including baptisms, etc..), and the church of God which has its citizenship in heaven... seated with Christ Jesus in heavenly places... and as difficult as it is to fathom, we are IN CHRIST.

The NATION of Israel with all of its Godly given ordinances is NOT in CHRIST.. that NATION is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. although that doesn't mean that an Israelite can not be saved today.. because any Israelite that does believe the gospel becomes a member of the church of God, while having dual citizenship within the Israel of God.. just as Paul did.

The Apostle to the Gentiles teaches the church of God that we were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and that it was after we BELIEVED.

What must I do to be saved.. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED..

That's when GOD places us into the body of CHRIST.. and that's a seal unto the REDEMPTION of HIS purchased possession !

Absolutely UNHEARD OF in the OT.. and prior to Christ..

Water baptism clearly is for believers.. and that's the work of God, and the Holy Spirit has clearly shown us that GENTILES received the Spirit of God before they were baptized... and that they WERE gladly baptized afterwards.

This is the work of God through deep heartfelt conviction.. and imo most people WANT to be baptized.. although that didn't save them.. God sealed us after we believed and then we were baptized..

Once again, It's a critical distinction which I believe many sadly miss today... and yet it's an enormous difference to say the least when we look closely at the ordinances which Israel performed right here on earth as compared to the grace of God which the church of God (His future bride to be), has been blessed with in Him, even in heavenly places.

The LAW (and all its ordinances) was given through Moses, but GRACE and truth came by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rrowell]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

What must I do to be saved.. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED..

That's when GOD places us into the body of CHRIST.. and that's a seal unto the REDEMPTION of HIS purchased possession !

To be in the body of Christ you have to "put on Christ":

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Only after baptism do we receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is Water Baptism that now saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-22 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Do you see a difference between the Old covenant and the New covenant - a difference between Lev 18:5 and Eze 36:27 ?

Works are always caused - either by man's self nature/flesh or by God's nature in man. When God works in man to will and to do of His good pleasure - He fulfills all the conditionals that we ought to have done by our own self natures but which we didn't and deserved condemnation for - such condemnation being averted by grace alone.

Our God is a process-oriented God. While He could regenerate just about anyone in a moment and translate them into His Kingdom in a flash - it would defeat His purpose of having them grow in their knowledge of His glory. The fact that He sets up a process is undeniable - the fact that He Himself causes us and preserves us to keep in His way is the doctrine of grace which is why we do have faith in Him and what He does in us and not in the arm of the flesh - such faith itself being the gift of grace. On the contrary, what goodness or love towards God can you expect from the flesh?

You must not mistaken God's process of salvation by grace with it becoming conditional upon man - that was the old covenant. What conditionals upon man do you see in Eze 36:23-28? And yet, wouldn't you agree that each of those events of that process are to be fulfilled before God's work of salvation can be said to be complete?

Grace includes the gifting of faith, the convicting unto confession, the granting of repentance and the filling of power, peace and joy. We are called to Christian liberty - conditionals upon the flesh are what kept us in bondage to sin and death, not because of the conditionals themselves but because of the exceeding sinfulness of sin in our flesh. Why must we still remain under the law and frustrate the grace of God?

God's grace was/is conditional under both the OT and NT.

Under the NT belief, repentance, confession and baptism are condition God has put upon man. God does not do these conditions for man for it is up to man to keep these conditions if he desires to be saved. Jesus did not go and wash His eyes for the man nor did God go and dip for Namaan. Tt was conditional upon Namaan to go and dip. He balked at first but when he decided to do as God said he came away clean.


You say " When God works in man to will and to do of His good pleasure - He fulfills all the conditionals that we ought to have done..."

Phl 2:12,13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure."

You have to work out your own salvation and you do that by keeping the conditions God has put upon His grace. Those that do obey God, then God is working in them. God is not working in those that do not obey Him by keeping the conditions He has put upon salvation.

God does not work in anyone apart from His word and apart from that person's obedience to His word. God does not randomly and unconditionally select certain people to work in while that person does nothing. If God did not select me and work in me, then it's God fault I would be lost. By the same token faith is not a gift God gives to certain people and not others. Again, if God did not give me faith, then it's God fault I am faithless.


Comparing Eze 36:23-28 to Eze 18:30,31 that says "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? "

They would have to obey by repenting and turning themselves and make themselves a new heart and spirit. Eze 36:27 expresses God's permissive will where God is said to cause an action but is in reality allowing / permitting them to walk in His statutes and make themselves a new heart and spirit. God does not cause/force men to either obey or disobey Him against their will. If the only way I could obey God was if He caused/forced me, then it would be God's fault if I were disobedient to Him for God failed to cause me to obey, failed to cause me to have a new heart and spirit. God judges man according to man's ways and not according to what God has caused / forced man to do or not do.

God did not cause / force Israel to obey Him or disobey Him. When Israel chose of themselves to walk in God's statues they were blessed. When they chose of their own will to disobey God they were punished. If God "caused" /forced Israel in the Calvinistic sense to walk in His statutes and keep His commands, did God's "causing" / forcing fail when Israel turned to idols and did not keep His statutes and commands? Did God "cause" / force them to disobey just so He could punish them?

So God does not cause / force men to keep the conditions He put on salvation men have to choose of their own will to keep those conditions.

 

[ivdavid]

God does not do these conditions for man for it is up to man to keep these conditions if he desires to be saved. Jesus did not go and wash His eyes for the man nor did God go and dip for Namaan.

Is this genuinely what you got from what I'd written or is this discounting what I'd written by exaggerating it to ridiculousness and thereby showing its implausibility?

When I wrote about God's working through sequential processes, I obviously didn't imply that God walked through the processes Himself - He causes man to walk through them. Take it as the converse of Rom 7:17 - perhaps Gal 2:20 - as not man, but Christ in man who effectively leads him to work out His commands.

Phl 2:12,13...You have to work out your own salvation and you do that by keeping the conditions God has put upon His grace.

Php 2:12 does not focus on what you have to work but rather in what manner you are to work it out - in trembling and fear - and why so? Because it is God who is effective in us to work out the good works that He has ordained us to walk in. There is no denying that we must work fully to completion the entire process of salvation commanded of us - but what causes us to work in the first place. Our flesh or Christ in us? If it's Christ in us - it is not based on conditionals, rather it is based on free unmerited grace.

If God did not select me and work in me, then it's God fault I would be lost....Again, if God did not give me faith, then it's God fault I am faithless.

I think you might have missed this earlier post.

They would have to obey by repenting and turning themselves and make themselves a new heart and spirit[Eze 18:30,31]. Eze 36:27 expresses God's permissive will where God is said to cause an action but is in reality allowing / permitting them to walk in His statutes and make themselves a new heart and spirit.

God's permissive will? Personally, I don't differentiate between a perfect and a permissive will - it implies that this permissive will is not necessarily perfect and that I cannot accept. I'd say it is God's perfect will to permit whatever He permitted and He is just in doing so since He is not the cause of any permitted evil. But here, you talk about God's permissive will to permit man to do good - then what is His perfect will here - that man not walk in His statutes and not make himself a new heart and spirit? Eze 36:27 means exactly what it literalistically means. In fact, Eze 36:26 has come about as part of the new covenant purely because man couldn't keep the Eze 18:30 form of the old covenant. This validates what I've been saying - that God, out of unmerited grace, does in us what we ought to have done ourselves.

God's ways of dealing with man is clear. He commands man to do His commandments - man has the choice to obey or disobey - man always chooses to disobey because of sin in the flesh - man is hence guilty before the just God - God further commands man to repent and believe that he may be forgiven for his transgressions - man still rejects God because of the exceeding sinfulness of sin in the flesh - God now has sovereign authority to either justly pronounce judgement upon this transgressor or He could have mercy upon him - those He does not have mercy upon, He endures with longsuffering in order to manifest His glory (in wrath) to those He wills to have mercy and compassion upon - these vessels of mercy are regenerated with a new heart and renewed spirit to love and believe in God, are granted repentance, are led to confession and forgiven, are given the adoption as sons and daughters and are preserved through sanctification unto the assured salvation of their souls - these are still commanded to obey the will of God which they now are able to do willingly because of Christ in them solely effecting their good works - these are able to rejoice in the works and righteousness of God not by way of evading their own responsibility but by owning it and being set free by unmerited grace, all by unmerited grace itself.

Which parts of this understanding of God's process do you have issues with?

If the only way I could obey God was if He caused/forced me, then it would be God's fault if I were disobedient to Him for God failed to cause me to obey, failed to cause me to have a new heart and spirit. God judges man according to man's ways and not according to what God has caused / forced man to do or not do.

Sequence of events do matter. Given the fall of mankind into sin, we NOW say that the only way to obey God is solely by His unmerited grace working in us. But this wasn't the only option given to man - God commanded him to refrain from sinning in the first place - but sin did enter the world and this was in no way caused by God. God is now not obligated to save anyone by His unmerited grace - if all mankind were to be judged unto condemnation tomorrow, God would still be just. But that He chooses to redeem a people for Himself is by way of grace which is not at all obligatory to all or anyone.

Hence, man is not condemned for the lack of God's grace but for the sins he himself has committed. He is acquitted because of sovereign grace but condemned because of his own sins - much like the murderer who is shown mercy by a sovereign king for the transgressions he himself had committed.

The reason sovereign election is stressed upon, is to uphold 1Cor 1:29 and Gal 2:21 amongst various other such teachings.

 

[Eventide]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

To be in the body of Christ you have to "put on Christ":

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And the Apostle to the GENTILES is speaking about when the LORD baptized us into the body of Christ by that same SPIRIT.

A believer can only 'put on Christ' if they're born again by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, although any person can be baptized in water and NOT be saved, and therefore they could NOT put on Christ.

How about baptizing all those infants... you think that all of them have put on Christ ?

Only after baptism do we receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about.. Peter is the Apostle to the Circumcision (ie, JEWS), and this is within the context of Israel.

Why wouldn't you show the portion of scripture which speaks of the GENTILES receiving the SPIRIT before they were baptized.. ?

It is Water Baptism that now saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-22 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Imo this portion is not speaking of OUR water baptism, but rather the baptism of Christ upon Calvary's forsaken cross, where He alone purged our sins... and I don't understand how people come up with the water saving Noah and his family.. when it DESTROYED everyone who was not in the Ark... ?

 

[Eventide]

I certainly believe that God's grace is conditional upon believing the truth, because that's simply what the scriptures teach !

God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

Unbelievers sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption..... 0 %

Believers sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption......... 100%

How can that possibly be 'unconditional'...?

Knowing that our Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God, it should be obvious that election to salvation is conditional upon being IN HIM, for there is SALVATION in no other name.

 

[Eventide]

God does not work in anyone apart from His word and apart from that person's obedience to His word.

Huge disagreement here..

The Holy Spirit of God CONVICTS the WORLD of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. our Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world.

All of this happens before regeneration... before a person is baptized into that one body by the same SPIRIT..

That's how people come to Christ... because He convinces us of these enormous issues in life.. sin, righteousness, and judgment.

 

[Eventide]

God is now not obligated to save anyone by His unmerited grace - if all mankind were to be judged unto condemnation tomorrow, God would still be just. But that He chooses to redeem a people for Himself is by way of grace which is not at all obligatory to all or anyone.

I also disagree with this.. specifically that God is not obligated to save anyone..

Knowing that He IS the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world, and that He has from the beginning chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. He is absolutely obligated (if that's the correct word) to SAVE those who are convinced of the truth and who believe.

 

[BornAgain]

Sticking to the topic of this thread:
God's Conditional Grace Some are under the wrong impression that God's grace must be unconditional else man would be trying to earn grace by "working" a condition. Is that the case?

shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.—

The truth is that we are under law while under grace, for to be under grace is to be under "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (8:2), which is the gospel.
To be under grace does not exclude law. It is to be without it in one sense, but to be under it in another. The full force of the question, therefore, is: May we sin because we are not under the law, which condemns sin and makes no provision for pardoning it; but under grace, which, though we sin, provides for remitting it?

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?—Obedience is the fist step to righteousness, disobedience to unrighteousness. To obey Jesus is the be his servants. If we obey him by the obedience to him we come to the state of righteousness.

Obedience to the form of teaching includes the quickening through faith, the death to sin, the burial and resurrection through baptism into a new life in Christ. This binds to an obedience to all the laws and regulations of the Christian religion that fit us for enjoying God's blessings.

 

[Eventide]

a hearty AMEN to that !

 

[BornAgain]

a hearty AMEN to that !

;) Now, to obey: I must get ready for service...

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
Heb 10:25 (KJV)

 

[ivdavid]

Unbelievers sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption..... 0 %
Believers sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption......... 100%

True. It is also true that God commands man to repent and believe to be saved. And it's true that the believer has indeed willingly obeyed the Gospel command. The question is - did such a believer obey God's command in the flesh or in the spirit.

Can an unregenerate person who finds no good thing in him ie in his flesh, because of sin in the flesh, and who has a heart of stone - can such a person in the flesh obey the law of God? Aren't the inclinations of the flesh in enmity against God - how then is the flesh inclined to please God by believing in and into Him?

He is absolutely obligated (if that's the correct word) to SAVE those who are convinced of the truth and who believe.

We are not referring to the same thing here. You are saying that God is obligated to save those who believe in Him - and that's true - but this is on account of God not denying His own nature in breaking a promise He's made to man - that any who call upon His Name will be saved.

But is God obligated to give such a promise in the first place and make provisions of grace for man's salvation given that man has transgressed God's command inspite of His warning? That is what I'm referring to.

 

[Eventide]

True. It is also true that God commands man to repent and believe to be saved. And it's true that the believer has indeed willingly obeyed the Gospel command. The question is - did such a believer obey God's command in the flesh or in the spirit.

Through CONVICTION... which is before regeneration. Otherwise conviction would be pointless. I'll add that conviction is the Holy Spirit of God pressing upon the heart and mind of man, while regeneration is renewing the heart of man.

Can an unregenerate person who finds no good thing in him ie in his flesh, because of sin in the flesh, and who has a heart of stone - can such a person in the flesh obey the law of God? Aren't the inclinations of the flesh in enmity against God - how then is the flesh inclined to please God by believing in and into Him?

Through CONVICTION... which is before regeneration. Otherwise conviction would be pointless.

We are not referring to the same thing here. You are saying that God is obligated to save those who believe in Him - and that's true - but this is on account of God not denying His own nature in breaking a promise He's made to man - that any who call upon His Name will be saved.

But is God obligated to give such a promise in the first place and make provisions of grace for man's salvation given that man has transgressed God's command inspite of His warning? That is what I'm referring to.

God HAS given us that PROMISE.. and seals us with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE, after hearing the gospel, and after we BELIEVE.

 

[Eventide]

Imagine being declared righteous, or more importantly guilty, within a court of law.. without any evidence ?

That's what faith is, isn't it.. TRUSTING in the EVIDENCE which the Holy Spirit convinces us of..?

 

[ivdavid]

Through CONVICTION... which is before regeneration. Otherwise conviction would be pointless. I'll add that conviction is the Holy Spirit of God pressing upon the heart and mind of man, while regeneration is renewing the heart of man.

Why do you say conviction would be pointless before regeneration?

And this conviction where the Holy Spirit presses upon the heart and mind of man - is this the hardened heart of stone and reprobate mind of man or is this the new heart and renewed mind of man? Again, when such a person responds according to the will of God to such conviction, is he doing so in the flesh or in the spirit?

By answering in the positive, are you implying that a person in the flesh can obey the law of God and please Him by believing in and into Him?

God HAS given us that PROMISE..

Yes. And it stands true. Any who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. It poses no inconsistency since none in the flesh will call upon the name of the Lord - and since only those God has mercy upon are regenerated in the spirit, to then call upon His Name and be saved - His election of grace stands true.

 

[Danus]

Please define one or all of the following words.

Grace

Mercy

Forgiveness

 

[Eventide]

Why do you say conviction would be pointless before regeneration?

I suppose it's easier to answer with a question..

What would be the point of the Holy Spirit convicting (convincing) the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, if they can't hear it or be 'pricked in the heart' by it ? IOW, how would God doing that for the person without any conditions, be glorifying to Himself or toward His very own creatures..?

And this conviction where the Holy Spirit presses upon the heart and mind of man - is this the hardened heart of stone and reprobate mind of man or is this the new heart and renewed mind of man? Again, when such a person responds according to the will of God to such conviction, is he doing so in the flesh or in the spirit?

No doubt it's through the POWER of the GOSPEL which is SPIRITUAL to say the least.. although imo you're confounding the 'process' as you say in that you're ignoring the fact that conviction clearly comes before regeneration.

By answering in the positive, are you implying that a person in the flesh can obey the law of God and please Him by believing in and into Him?

Not at all, simply affirming the truth that the Lord is (still) calling all in Adam to repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes. And it stands true. Any who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. It poses no inconsistency since none in the flesh will call upon the name of the Lord - and since only those God has mercy upon are regenerated in the spirit, to then call upon His Name and be saved - His election of grace stands true.

God has mercy upon us all, as evidenced clearly in the LAST Adam justifying every last one of us through faith... and His grace is UNTO all and UPON all that BELIEVE.

 

[ivdavid]

Please define one or all of the following words.
Grace
Mercy
Forgiveness

Grace : To give benefits that a person does not deserve.
Mercy : To withhold punishment that a person does deserve.
Forgiveness : To blot out the account of transgressions against us.