Grace

[Heidi]

Since there are so many here who do not understand the concept of Grace, then trying to understand the rest of the bible will be a waste of time.

Grace, as defined in the Oxford American Dictionary when applied to Christianity means; "the unmerited favor of God; a divine saving and strengthening influence." And if salvation comes from the divine, then how can we possibly have control over it? :o We cannot. It is impossible. And to say we can, is saying that it does depend on merit and is not divine! Therefore, losing it is impossible.

But again, many have shown that they do not only do not believe the bible, they don't believe the dictionary as well. These people are skeptics, not faith-filled Christians.

I will once again quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and only those who believe it, not change around words, or replace then with their own, will know what salvation is.

"Ephesians 2:8-9. "For it is by grace you have been saved , through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

What is it about that passage that people not understand? :o It has everything we need to know about salvation. Everything.

But there are many who have inserted words such as:

"It is not by grace that you have been saved, but by works."

Or, "It is by grace that you are being saved , not have been saved."

Or, It is not by grace you have been saved and faith is not a gift from God, it comes from ourselves."

Or, It is not by grace you have been saved but by works so that we can boast."

And these are all under the guise of "interpretation." This is the saddest part of all and allows men to play with the words of the bible and rationalize it to suit theior own desires. This is blasphemy because the bible is the word of God.

As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it. But some people simply don't want to believe it, so they start playing with its words. The devil has a field day when we play with the words of God, as has been shown.

So those who do not believe in Grace can continue quibbling about the law but that will not bring them any closer to understanding grace, only farther away from it.

 

[Free]

But there are many who have inserted words such as:
...
Or, "It is by grace that you are being saved , not have been saved."

The fact remains that the NT does speak of salvation as both a past event, a current process and a future event.

As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it.

And as I've showed you many times, this statement is severely lacking in logic. One cannot read the Bible without interpreting it.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Since there are so many here who do not understand the concept of Grace, then trying to understand the rest of the bible will be a waste of time.

Grace, as defined in the Oxford American Dictionary when applied to Christianity means; "the unmerited favor of God; a divine saving and strengthening influence." And if salvation comes from the divine, then how can we possibly have control over it? :o We cannot. It is impossible. And to say we can, is saying that it does depend on merit and is not divine! Therefore, losing it is impossible.

But again, many have shown that they do not only do not believe the bible, they don't believe the dictionary as well. These people are skeptics, not faith-filled Christians.

I will once again quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and only those who believe it, not change around words, or replace then with their own, will know what salvation is.

"Ephesians 2:8-9. "For it is by grace you have been saved , through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

What is it about that passage that people not understand? :o It has everything we need to know about salvation. Everything.

But there are many who have inserted words such as:

"It is not by grace that you have been saved, but by works."

Or, "It is by grace that you are being saved , not have been saved."

Or, It is not by grace you have been saved and faith is not a gift from God, it comes from ourselves."

Or, It is not by grace you have been saved but by works so that we can boast."

And these are all under the guise of "interpretation." This is the saddest part of all and allows men to play with the words of the bible and rationalize it to suit theior own desires. This is blasphemy because the bible is the word of God.

As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it. But some people simply don't want to believe it, so they start playing with its words. The devil has a field day when we play with the words of God, as has been shown.

So those who do not believe in Grace can continue quibbling about the law but that will not bring them any closer to understanding grace, only farther away from it.

As you have stated this unmerited favor is only given to those that "confess with their mouths" Jesus Christ so it appears your understanding is that grace is limited. This gift you characterize is not avalible to infants and small children.

Why do you think God uses a different standard for infants that for adults?

Why doesnt God's grace flow over infants if it is an "unmerited favor"?

Why are you adding "knowledge" to the free gift given by God if we have no "control over it"?

If the grace of God as a free gift is freely given to infants why not baptise them?

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

But there are many who have inserted words such as:
...
Or, "It is by grace that you are being saved , not have been saved."

The fact remains that the NT does speak of salvation as both a past event, a current process and a future event.

As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it.

And as I've showed you many times, this statement is severely lacking in logic. One cannot read the Bible without interpreting it.

And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages. Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those messages is that salvation is a past event, but we will experience the complete fruits of it when we die and go to heaven. While we are alive we are competling the work that God prepared for us in advance to do as Ephesians 2: 10 tells us. That interpretation doesn't contradict any passage in the bible, but yours does, so it cannot be a true one, Orthodoxy.

Again, if anyone takes out words or adds his own, then he is not believing the bible as written. He is making up his own gospel. He is also not believing the bible when he believes one passage and not another.

In order to interpret the bible so that no scipture contradicts any other scripture, we have to find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions. That is the first step toward knowing what the truth is.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Free[/color]]

But there are many who have inserted words such as:
...
Or, "It is by grace that you are being saved , not have been saved."

The fact remains that the NT does speak of salvation as both a past event, a current process and a future event.

As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it.

And as I've showed you many times, this statement is severely lacking in logic. One cannot read the Bible without interpreting it.

And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages. Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those messages is that salvation is a past event, but we will experience the complete fruits of it when we die and go to heaven. While we are alive we are competling the work that God prepared for us in advance to do as Ephesians 2: 10 tells us. That interpretation doesn't contradict any passage in the bible, but yours does, so it cannot be a true one, Orthodoxy.

Again, if anyone takes out words or adds his own, then he is not believing the bible as written. He is making up his own gospel. He is also not believing the bible when he believes one passage and not another.

In order to interpret the bible so that no scipture contradicts any other scripture, we have to find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions. That is the first step toward knowing what the truth is.

You are a walking contradiction.

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

It's easy to make accusations. What's hard is showing them to be true. So please show me my contradictions or I will consider your comment a flame.

 

[Free]

It's easy to make accusations. What's hard is showing them to be true. So please show me my contradictions

Okay.

First: "As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it."

And then: "In order to interpret the bible so that no scipture contradicts any other scripture, we have to find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions. That is the first step toward knowing what the truth is."

First you say that we are not to interpret the Bible, then you say that "the first step toward knowing what the truth is" is to "find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions."

So which is it: are we to interpret Scripture, the "first step toward knowing what the truth is," or are we to not interpret it?

And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages. Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those messages is that salvation is a past event, but we will experience the complete fruits of it when we die and go to heaven.

Do you think that there are only two passages in the NT that speak of salvation?

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
(Note that one is to "hold fast to the word" and that "being saved" is dependent on that.)

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

It would appear that your contradictory interpretation of Scripture does not allow for, or take into account, the fact that we are still in the process of being saved. It is called sanctification.

Again, if anyone takes out words or adds his own, then he is not believing the bible as written. He is making up his own gospel. He is also not believing the bible when he believes one passage and not another.

I have just proved that you are "not believing the Bible" since you "believe one passage and not another".

 

[Orthodoxy]

It's easy to make accusations. What's hard is showing them to be true. So please show me my contradictions or I will consider your comment a flame.

See the red wording in the above quote.

 

[Heidi]

It's easy to make accusations. What's hard is showing them to be true. So please show me my contradictions

Okay.

First: "As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it."

And then: "In order to interpret the bible so that no scipture contradicts any other scripture, we have to find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions. That is the first step toward knowing what the truth is."

First you say that we are not to interpret the Bible, then you say that "the first step toward knowing what the truth is" is to "find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions."

So which is it: are we to interpret Scripture, the "first step toward knowing what the truth is," or are we to not interpret it?

And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages. Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those messages is that salvation is a past event, but we will experience the complete fruits of it when we die and go to heaven.

Do you think that there are only two passages in the NT that speak of salvation?

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
(Note that one is to "hold fast to the word" and that "being saved" is dependent on that.)

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

It would appear that your contradictory interpretation of Scripture does not allow for, or take into account, the fact that we are still in the process of being saved. It is called sanctification.

Again, if anyone takes out words or adds his own, then he is not believing the bible as written. He is making up his own gospel. He is also not believing the bible when he believes one passage and not another.

I have just proved that you are "not believing the Bible" since you "believe one passage and not another".

What passage have I not believed????? Please quote the passage that I do not believe, because I would love to know what it is.

Your interpretation contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 that we have been saved. Do you not believe that? Yes or no. I already explained that we have been saved and can never lose it. All our works are doing on this earth is completing what God prepared for us in advance. And that's what the bible means by "completing our salvation". Otherwise you're saying the bible contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 which it does not.

The word "interpretation" that I used refers to the words in the bible as they are written. "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is the gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast" means; "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is the gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Therefore, all I did was believe that pasage, not interpret it.

 

[Orthodoxy]

It's easy to make accusations. What's hard is showing them to be true. So please show me my contradictions

Okay.

First: "As I've said many times, all we have to do is believe the the bible, not interpret it."

And then: "In order to interpret the bible so that no scipture contradicts any other scripture, we have to find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions. That is the first step toward knowing what the truth is."

First you say that we are not to interpret the Bible, then you say that "the first step toward knowing what the truth is" is to "find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture together so there are no contradictions."

So which is it: are we to interpret Scripture, the "first step toward knowing what the truth is," or are we to not interpret it?

And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages. Therefore, the only interpretation that does not contradict either of those messages is that salvation is a past event, but we will experience the complete fruits of it when we die and go to heaven.

Do you think that there are only two passages in the NT that speak of salvation?

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
(Note that one is to "hold fast to the word" and that "being saved" is dependent on that.)

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

It would appear that your contradictory interpretation of Scripture does not allow for, or take into account, the fact that we are still in the process of being saved. It is called sanctification.

Again, if anyone takes out words or adds his own, then he is not believing the bible as written. He is making up his own gospel. He is also not believing the bible when he believes one passage and not another.

I have just proved that you are "not believing the Bible" since you "believe one passage and not another".

Thank you.

A double minded person is unstable in all his ways including biblical interpretation.

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

I know a few true believers here believe "It does not there depend on man's own effort, but on God's mercy," but there are far too many who don't.

They also believe that Christ died for nothing and their salvation depends on their own works or they can't believe we could lose it. This contempt for what their Lord did for them is inexcusable.

And so far, no one has answered the question of when we lose our salvation. How many works do we have to do? How many people do we need to help? How many laws do we have to keep? What's the magic number? I thought Jesus fulfilled the law, but again, they don't believe he did that so they have to do it themselves. Sorry, but James said that if we we break the law even once, we are guilty of breaking all of it. So these people who are not saved by grace are up the creek without a paddle. They are in the same place as the Jews.

But true Christians who know that Christ died for everything we have ever done or ever will do wrong, know what our Lord did for us so we can be thankful and spend our whole lives thanking him. So we actually keep the law far more than they do!

It is Christ we come to for salvation, not ourselves. But since the Pharisees on this forum don't believe that, then I can see why they're scared of losing their salvation because none of them are perfect enough to save themselves. Only Christ is. Therefore, I will no longer give them a platform to pass along their Pharisiacal beliefs. They do that well enough on their own.

 

[Free]

What passage have I not believed????? Please quote the passage that I do not believe, because I would love to know what it is.

How is that you cannot follow this simple discussion and yet interpret the Bible that we are not supposed to interpret? The verses I gave showing that salvation is also an ongoing process are the ones that you do not believe.

As you stated earlier: "And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages."

I proved that it is both a past event, an ongoing process, and we both know that it is a future event. My interpretation attempts to take into account all the passages regarding salvation, your's does not.

The word "interpretation" that I used refers to the words in the bible as they are written.

Then it is too bad you cannot read Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Therefore, all I did was believe that pasage, not interpret it.

No, you interpreted it. One cannot read the Bible without interpreting it. I suggest you look up "interpret" in a dictionary. It means "to explain or teach the meaning of". Every time you read the bible you are teaching yourself what the meaning of a passage is.

 

[Free]

(Bump)

 

[Heidi]

What passage have I not believed????? Please quote the passage that I do not believe, because I would love to know what it is.

How is that you cannot follow this simple discussion and yet interpret the Bible that we are not supposed to interpret? The verses I gave showing that salvation is also an ongoing process are the ones that you do not believe.

As you stated earlier: "And if you say it's a past event and a current event then you are contradicting both those passages."

I proved that it is both a past event, an ongoing process, and we both know that it is a future event. My interpretation attempts to take into account all the passages regarding salvation, your's does not.

The word "interpretation" that I used refers to the words in the bible as they are written.

Then it is too bad you cannot read Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Therefore, all I did was believe that pasage, not interpret it.

No, you interpreted it. One cannot read the Bible without interpreting it. I suggest you look up "interpret" in a dictionary. It means "to explain or teach the meaning of". Every time you read the bible you are teaching yourself what the meaning of a passage is.

So if it is an ongoing process then do you believe Christ's death saved us or not? Ephesians 2:8-9, says; "For it is by grace you have been saved...." Do you not believe that?

Free, if someone says today is Tuesday, do you interpret it ro do you believe it? If I "interpret" today to be Friday when everything else contradicts that, is my "interpretation" true? :o And that is why I said, all we have to do is believe the bible. But there are many, many, false doctrines in the world which are justified by the word; "interpretation", inclduing the notion that Mary was a virgin even though that clearly contradicts the bible. But if those people simply believed the bible, they would not replace its words with their "interpretations." I have to get to church now.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Heidi:
I'm wondering how long you're going to dance around the contradiction in your statements that Free pointed out. I wonder why you insist on one verse over others, rather than reconciling them one with another.

 

[Free]

Free, if someone says today is Tuesday, do you interpret it ro do you believe it? If I "interpret" today to be Friday when everything else contradicts that, is my "interpretation" true? :o

Well, looking at your far too simple and therefore inadequate analogy, it all depends on where in the world I am at the moment. I'll grant you that for me it is Tuesday, but for others who post on this forum it may be Monday or Wednesday.

And that is why I said, all we have to do is believe the bible.

And that is why I keep pointing out that that is fallacious thinking and completely ignores the complexities of Scripture.

But if those people simply believed the bible, they would not replace its words with their "interpretations."

But again, this is error in your thinking.

How about addressing the contradiction?

 

[Heidi]

And if some people think it's Monday when it is actually Tuesday, then do you think they are passing along a true belief or a false one? :o Or do you think like atheists do that whatever anyone thinks is true is true just because he thinks it is? So which is it? :-?

 

[Free]

And if some people think it's Monday when it is actually Tuesday, then do you think they are passing along a true belief or a false one? :o Or do you think like atheists do that whatever anyone thinks is true is true just because he thinks it is? So which is it? :-?

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that your analogy is inadequate?

Have an answer for your contradiction yet?

 

[Klee shay]

So what do you do when 1 Cor 15:2 is preached, take a nap? Oh perhaps you do your nails when Hebrews 6 and 10 are read.

Is this not a presumption?

May God have mercy on your presumptous soul that you may not presume upon his mercy while neglecting fear of his justice.

Thankfully there is plenty of mercy to go around.