Has this already happened?

[Cyberseeker]

That day (the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ) will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
(2 Thess. 2:3-4)

Has this already happened? My question is mainly for Historicists and Preterists but Futurists are welcome to join in, provided they don’t try to predict modern candidates. (My topic is about possible previous candidates.)

As we can see, the Lord’s coming happens after a widespread “rebellion†then a man promotes himself for blasphemous “worship.†Has this specific prophecy been fulfilled? If you think so, could you please:

1. provide the historical events, (or)
2. explain how it fits into the Preterist (and Historicist) scenarios.

 

[JLB]

Has this already happened? My question is mainly for Historicists and Preterists but Futurists are welcome to join in, provided they don’t try to predict modern candidates. (My topic is about possible previous candidates.)

As we can see, the Lord’s coming happens after a widespread “rebellion†then a man promotes himself for blasphemous “worship.†Has this specific prophecy been fulfilled? If you think so, could you please:

1. provide the historical events, (or)
2. explain how it fits into the Preterist (and Historicist) scenarios.

I will choose option number 2.

Explain how this fits into Preterist scenarios.


Scripture text - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God...
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

By this scripture, we see there will be the following three, present on earth at the same time.

1. The man of sin. [Who claims to be the Messiah, God]
2. The temple. [From which he works his deception]
3. The Lord Jesus Christ. [Who destroys the lawless one, with the brightness of His coming]

When the Lord comes, He will:


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.


And again -


39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!




When the Lord returns, all the wicked will be cast into the fire, leaving only the righteous to shine forth as the sun!

This event has yet to happen.

How this fits into the Preterist scenario, is the same way a square peg fits into a round hole:

Force the square peg until all the four corners , of truth, break off!

Then it will fit!


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Has this already happened? My question is mainly for Historicists and Preterists but Futurists are welcome to join in, provided they don’t try to predict modern candidates. (My topic is about possible previous candidates.)

As we can see, the Lord’s coming happens after a widespread “rebellion” then a man promotes himself for blasphemous “worship.” Has this specific prophecy been fulfilled? If you think so, could you please:

1. provide the historical events, (or)
2. explain how it fits into the Preterist (and Historicist) scenarios.

Yes it has happened. The "rebellion" was against Rome. Jews that chose to take upon themselves the Messianic responsibility to free Judea from bondage to Rome were usurping the authority of God. Self "worship".

If you ask specific questions, I'll provide specific answers. I don't feel like writing an exhaustive treatise.

 

[JLB]

Yes it has happened. The "rebellion" was against Rome. Jews that chose to take upon themselves the Messianic responsibility to free Judea from bondage to Rome were usurping the authority of God. Self "worship".

If you ask specific questions, I'll provide specific answers. I don't feel like writing an exhaustive treatise.

Too bad you use no scripture. For good reason, since arguing with The Lord Jesus is futile!


JLB

 

[reba]

Where is the scripture that tells a group of believers to subtract 70 years off a number so the numbers fit their ideology ?

 

[Cyberseeker]

If you ask specific questions, I'll provide specific answers. I don't feel like writing an exhaustive treatise.

Kenneth Gentry says it is Nero and the protestant reformers thought it was the Pope. Do you think one of these might be right?

 

[JLB]

Where is the scripture that tells a group of believers to subtract 70 years off a number so the numbers fit their ideology ?

Since I have answered this question, many many times, yet you still refuse to answer when I explain.

"Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; Daniel 9:25

I will try again, Did the Command to restore Jerusalem come when the Children of Israel were carried away unto captivity or "after" the time of the captivity was over [70 years]?

A] - The command came to restore and build Jerusalem right when the children of Israel went into captivity.

B] - The command came to restore and build Jerusalem after the time of captivity was over.


Now you have never bothered to answer me when I have explained this to you time and again, instead you decide to interrupt a thread of a different subject, with a remark that looks as if you are trying to validate a doctrine that you yourself have declared to be heresy.

I don't know why you do this, but the time has come for you to answer.

Please choose A or B.


Thanks JLB

 

[jasoncran]

after the first diaspora.

 

[reba]

My question to JLB was off topic Post #5 . He has tried often to get me to understand i dont... I apologize to JLB and for derailing...

 

[Sinthesis]

Kenneth Gentry says it is Nero and the protestant reformers thought it was the Pope. Do you think one of these might be right?

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is prefiguring the vain self righteous spirit that overran Jerusalem resulting in the first Jewish/Roman war. Because only the Jews were under the law, it was not a sin for Nero to disregard the Jewish law. All Gentiles were by definition lawless, so lawlessness is only a slander when describing Jews. The rebellious movement willing to set aside the law in the interests of their 'holy war' collectively represent the man of lawlessness.

 

[JLB]

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is prefiguring the vain self righteous spirit that overran Jerusalem resulting in the first Jewish/Roman war. Because only the Jews were under the law, it was not a sin for Nero to disregard the Jewish law. All Gentiles were by definition lawless, so lawlessness is only a slander when describing Jews. The rebellious movement willing to set aside the law in the interests of their 'holy war' collectively represent the man of lawlessness.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

• The man of sin is a flesh and blood man.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

• He will be revealed, made know, manifested in his "appointed time".
• He will be alive on earth when Jesus Christ returns.
• The lawless one will be physically destroyed by Jesus Christ Himself.

There is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem or the sanctuary in this "prophetic" letter telling of the future by the Apostle Paul.



JLB

 

[Cyberseeker]

I assume everyone here (all eschatological viewpoints) considers Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36, and 2Thess 2:4 to be speaking of the same man? Am I right?

 

[JLB]

I assume everyone here (all eschatological viewpoints) considers Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36, and 2Thess 2:4 to be speaking of the same man? Am I right?

First of all there needs to be agreement of what is being said in the 1 Scripture of 2 Thessalonians 2, before you can expect there to be agreement in 4 others scriptures.

Do you agree with what I posted -

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

• The man of sin is a flesh and blood man.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

• He will be revealed, made know, manifested in his "appointed time".
• He will be alive on earth when Jesus Christ returns.
• The lawless one will be physically destroyed by Jesus Christ Himself.

There is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem or the sanctuary in this "prophetic" letter telling of the future by the Apostle Paul.

JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker,

I assume everyone here (all eschatological viewpoints) considers Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36, and 2Thess 2:4 to be speaking of the same man? Am I right?

Good to see you again Cyberseeker.


To answer your question: NO. Many "entities" are being jumbled into one in this thread, but they are not one and the same. The "man of sin" has (in the eschatological sense) nothing to do with the "abomination of desolation."




Notice how Matthew and Luke relate the event:

Matthew 24:15-17 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."



Now Luke foretells the SAME EVENT:

Luke 21:20-24 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."



Note the difference between these two texts. Both Luke and Matthew heard Jesus as He gave this discourse. When they recalled this event when penning their Gospels, Matthew, a Jew, writes as a Jew would have remembered the prediction made by Jesus. Luke, on the other hand, most likely a Gentile convert, wrote it according to what he understood Jesus to mean. Notice the harmony that is found in their diversity.

From their personal perspectives, both writers understood the meaning of Christ's words. To the Jewish mind, a foreign army standing on the holy ground around Jerusalem's walls was an abomination intent on destruction. The presence of uncircumcised Gentiles on the holy ground dedicated to the Levites would be considered to the Jewish mind as an 'abomination,' because to the Jews, Jerusalem was the City of God because His temple dwelling was there.

Luke confirms this point. Although his perspective is different, he writes, "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that desolation is near."

Jesus is obviously talking about the destruction of Jerusalem that would be forthcoming in A.D. 70. (see Daniel 11:31).





These verses have nothing to do with the "man of sin," at least not in the eschatological sense. However, the events of A.D. 70 are certainly the "physical type" the 'similitude' that physically illustrates the "destruction" that must take place 'spiritually' within each of us, in order to dethrone the "man of sin" (the old, sinful, first MAN Adam) within the temple (which temple WE ARE), so that the "Second Man Adam" (Christ) can take His rightful place on the Throne in the temple (which temple WE ARE):


1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple YE ARE."


2 Thessalonians 2:4 "Who [the man of sin] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth IN THE TEMPLE of God, shewing himself that he is God."



Remember:

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them [Israel] for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [age] are come."

 

[JLB]

To answer your question: NO. Many "entities" are being jumbled into one in this thread, but they are not one and the same. The "man of sin" has (in the eschatological sense) nothing to do with the "abomination of desolation

Notice how Matthew and Luke relate the event:

Matthew 24:15-17 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."



Now Luke foretells the SAME EVENT:

Luke 21:20-24 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

That is a perfect example of Jumbling two different things together and calling them the same!

The phrase "Abomination of Desolation" is not mentioned in Luke.

Interesting that you would say that Luke is speaking of the same event, when the Abomination of Desolation is not mentioned in Luke. How do you get to jump to that conclusion.

Thats because the physical destruction of the Temple and the spiritual defilement of the Temple are two different things altogether.

The Lord is challenged with answering two questions here, both of which happen in the same place, yet at different times!

Matthew records different language. For good reason Luke records only one question, which in return Jesus' answer is more detailed concerning the events of the question asked.

To me, The Holy Spirit is brilliant, in conveying this difficult task of explaining two events that happen in the same place, yet at different times, by the structure of the questions in Luke and in Matthew. Once you see this, then seemingly difficult verse's begin to make sense.

Luke records - 21:6-7

6 " These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"

This question is asking only about the destruction of the temple, unlike what Matthew records - When will these things be and The sign of your coming of the Lord and the end of the age!

Once you understand this, then it's clear why Luke only records the events of the destruction of the temple.
Also, notice in Luke's record, there is no reference to Daniel, like there is in Mathew's record.

That's because Luke's record is describing the physical destruction of the temple, while Mathew records the spiritual defilement of it.

Two different events that occur in the same place!

Luke's account takes place in the Temple, while in the discussion and context of Jesus comment about the destruction of the temple.

Matthew and Mark, on the other hand, take place in a private setting with His disciples on the Mount of Olives. So, it's no wonder, Jesus is sharing about His Coming, in the private setting and talking about the destruction of the temple in the temple ground in the hearing of the Pharisee's.

Same place! Different events, as Daniel lays out for us.


JLB

 

[Cyberseeker]

Here is how I see it

Do you agree with what I posted -

Not quite. As I see it opinions about ‘Antichrist’ revolve around three ideas:

1. He is a historical person
2. He is a future person
3. It is a ‘spirit’ or ‘system’ - not a flesh & blood person

Can I suggest that antichrist is both a ‘spirit’ as well as a person? The antichrist spirit has been in the world for as long as Satan has been in the world and it proceeds directly from him; it is the image of all that Satan is. It follows then, that literal antichrists should arise throughout the ages because, as Satan is spirit, he seeks human vessels through whom he may project his image into the material world.

Therefore it is correct to say that Nimrod was antichrist; Antiochus was antichrist; Nero was antichrist; Domitian was antichrist; the medieval popes were ‘antichrist.’ It is also correct to say antichrist is yet to come. However, it is not correct to dismiss antichrist as some figure of history and say that’s that! Nor is it right to relegate him to the future and hope to be dead or gone. John put it in perspective when he said:

“You have heard that the Antichrist is coming. Even now many antichrists have come.†(1 John 2:18)​

The problem I have with the Preterist/Futurist debate is that it makes antichrist (and prophecy generally) an object of past or future speculation but fails to address the ‘now’! One of the special things about Bible prophecy is that it is always relevant. This is why the reformation Protestants (Historicists) could point to the Pope and say, “this is Antichrist.†They were right! But for us to say the same thing is to miss the point. Today we have our own antichrists. (eg. Hitler)

So, essentially antichrist is a ‘spirit’ or a ‘system’ but he may be personified in human flesh from time to time. This must be what 2Thessalonians 2:4 is all about when in the last days we see a final flesh and bloo manifestation that we call “The Antichrist.â€

 

[Osgiliath]

That is a perfect example of Jumbling two different things together and calling them the same!

The phrase "Abomination of Desolation" is not mentioned in Luke.

Interesting that you would say that Luke is speaking of the same event, when the Abomination of Desolation is not mentioned in Luke. How do you get to jump to that conclusion.

Thats because the physical destruction of the Temple and the spiritual defilement of the Temple are two different things altogether.

The Lord is challenged with answering two questions here, both of which happen in the same place, yet at different times!

Matthew records different language. For good reason Luke records only one question, which in return Jesus' answer is more detailed concerning the events of the question asked.

To me, The Holy Spirit is brilliant, in conveying this difficult task of explaining two events that happen in the same place, yet at different times, by the structure of the questions in Luke and in Matthew. Once you see this, then seemingly difficult verse's begin to make sense.

Luke records - 21:6-7

6 " These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"

This question is asking only about the destruction of the temple, unlike what Matthew records - When will these things be and The sign of your coming of the Lord and the end of the age!

Once you understand this, then it's clear why Luke only records the events of the destruction of the temple.
Also, notice in Luke's record, there is no reference to Daniel, like there is in Mathew's record.

That's because Luke's record is describing the physical destruction of the temple, while Mathew records the spiritual defilement of it.

Two different events that occur in the same place!

Luke's account takes place in the Temple, while in the discussion and context of Jesus comment about the destruction of the temple.

Matthew and Mark, on the other hand, take place in a private setting with His disciples on the Mount of Olives. So, it's no wonder, Jesus is sharing about His Coming, in the private setting and talking about the destruction of the temple in the temple ground in the hearing of the Pharisee's.

Same place! Different events, as Daniel lays out for us.


JLB

JLB, re-read the whole post #14. Matthew and Luke are foretelling the same event, including the same 'woe to women who are with child'.

Matthew 24:15-17 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."



Luke foretells the SAME EVENT:

Luke 21:20-24 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."


Luke, a Gentile convert, recalls Jesus' prophecy that warns of the armies that will surround Jerusalem, and as a result, desolation is near (re-read Luke 21:20). Matthew, a Jew, calls these same armies that Jesus spoke of; the "abomination of desolation." If you can't put this one together, there's nothing I can do for you my brother. Peace.

 

[JLB]

JLB, re-read the whole post #14. Matthew and Luke are foretelling the same event, including the same 'woe to women who are with child'.

Matthew 24:15-17 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."



Luke foretells the SAME EVENT:

Luke 21:20-24 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."


Luke, a Gentile convert, recalls Jesus' prophecy that warns of the armies that will surround Jerusalem, and as a result, desolation is near (re-read Luke 21:20). Matthew, a Jew, calls these same armies that Jesus spoke of; the "abomination of desolation." If you can't put this one together, there's nothing I can do for you my brother. Peace.

That's the problem.

Your trying to put together something that needs to be carefully and rightly divided.

Matthew clearly refers to Daniel. Luke 21 does not

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),


Matthew and Mark record Jesus giving the famous Olivet Discourse, which is a private meeting away from the Temple on the Mount of Olives.

Luke records a different conversation that takes place in the Temple.

Now, right I have to ask you why you would "lump" these two conversations together as one. They are in different settings at different times and and they involve different things, but they do have a thing in common, Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is the common denominator. But at different times.

Understanding what Daniel speaks of is the key!

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:26-27

Verse 26 shows the city and sanctuary as being destroyed. That happened in 70 AD.

Today we see that the city has been rebuilt.

Today we see that the Temple is about to be rebuilt also.

Verse 27 speaks of a time, some time after 70 AD, when sacrifice and offering will begin again.

But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Verse 27 speaks of a time after the temple is destroyed, that the Abomination language comes into play.

on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,


Two different events in the same place, Jerusalem.

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

I assume everyone here (all eschatological viewpoints) considers Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36, and 2Thess 2:4 to be speaking of the same man? Am I right?

Nope:
Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are both about Roman legions stalking the holy land in 66-73AD.
Daniel 11:36 is about Rome in the first century BC.
2Thess 2:4 is about Judaism's violent revolt against Rome from 66-73AD.

 

[JLB]

Nope:
Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are both about Roman legions stalking the holy land in 66-73AD.
Daniel 11:36 is about Rome in the first century BC.
2Thess 2:4 is about Judaism's violent revolt against Rome from 66-73AD.

Not one word is mentioned about the event of 70 AD in Jesus" Olivet Discourse, which begins in Matthew 24:4 - 25:46.

Scripture is what we should base our understanding on, not the shifting sand of man made doctrine!

JLB