Hell: a bit of an overreaction, no?

[celo]

Have you ever burned yourself by accident? I have. Several times.

Most recently, I accidentally touched the heating plate on my coffee machine. I would estimate that my index finger was in contact with said plate for perhaps 0.05 seconds. It was very painful, as burns tend to be. And the pain lasted for perhaps 5 minutes before it got better.

Perspective: (For rhetorical sake, I will be using temporal scales based on current "scientific" approaches to cosmology and geology. For rhetorical purposes only. If this ain't your cup of tea, try to imagine the timescales. No belief required.)

1 year: Time for a new calender.
~10 years: Bush Jr. was our president.
~100 years: Titanic sank, WWI looms over the horizon.
~ 1,000 years: The Mad Caliph desecrates Jerusalem, Vikings throw tantrums in England.
~10,000 years: Agriculture is born.
~100,000 years: Early humans (humor me folks, lol) show signs of religion, and the concept of afterlife and burial.
~1,000,000 years:View attachment 4433 Hot British cavechicks had awkwardly comical interactions with their dinosaur neighbors. Yes, it was filmed and released on VHS.
~10,000,000 years: Antarctica separates from Australia and South America.
~100,000,000 years: The Atlantic Ocean is born.
~1,000,000,000 years: Multicellular organisms appear, Earth day is only 18 hours long,
~5,000,000,000 years: Earth doesn't exist. The sun doesn't exist.
~13,770,000,000 years: The universe is born.
~13,770,000,001+ years: ?? The horizon of our understanding.
~13,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years: Everything above would have had time to occur 1,000,000,000,000,000 times over.

~Eternity: All of the above would have the time to occur an infinite number of times. Too many zeros, and not enough time to write them all; even if I had an eternity to do so.

Also the time spent being tortured in hell.


Now I burned myself over the course of 0.05 seconds when I touched the heating element on my coffee machine. That was not very fun. To experience such torment for an eternity? I can't think of anything more evil, twisted, sadistic, and wrong. What possible crime, in a tiny little 70-90 years of existence, could possible warrant such extreme punishment?

I suppose you could say that I am "religion shopping." I was born Jewish, but I really have no religion. There is a lot, however, that appeals to me about finding a faith.

The hell thing really turns me off. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to love, or even respect any deity involved with such unspeakable horrors.

I respectfully ask of you three things:

1. Give me another perspective/help me change my mind on this "deal breaker." (Me not going isn't enough. The thought of anyone going, even-child-rapist puppy-killers, really bothers me, and contradicts the "forgiveness" and "redemption" and "love" stuff. An eternity of torture is about as opposite to those qualities as it gets.)

2. No matter your opinion, I urge you to seriously consider what "going to hell" really means. It is very easy to dismiss someone as, "going to hell," but really take an honest look at exactly what this would entail.

3. Forgive me for any unsavory "science" in my post. I know anything past 4000-6000 BC is taboo for many religious folks, but my point was to stimulate thought on how large an eternity actually is (which is impossible to completely do). (READ: I am not looking to debate it :crazy)


I look forward to your responses.

 

[chessman]

The hell thing really turns me off. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to love, or even respect any deity involved with such unspeakable horrors. I respectfully ask of you three things: 1. Give me another perspective/help me change my mind on this "deal breaker." (Me not going isn't enough. The thought of anyone going, even-child-rapist puppy-killers, really bothers me, and contradicts the "forgiveness" and "redemption" and "love" stuff. An eternity of torture is about as opposite to those qualities as it gets.) 2. No matter your opinion, I urge you to seriously consider what "going to hell" really means. It is very easy to dismiss someone as, "going to hell," but really take an honest look at exactly what this would entail. 3. Forgive me for any unsavory "science" in my post. I know anything past 4000-6000 BC is taboo for many religious folks, but my point was to stimulate thought on how large an eternity actually is (which is impossible to completely do). (READ: I am not looking to debate it ) I look forward to your responses.

I don't mind interacting with you on this subject if you have honest questions/concerns as you seem to articulated here. In fact, even as a Christian person (that is someone that believes in the Truth of the Bible and the God it describes), I see your point and it (at least on the surface) is a reasonable complaint about the "Christian God". So reasonable it deserves further consideration. I’ll start by answering or giving a response to your three questions then ask you a few:

Q1: “Give me another perspective/help me change my mind on this "deal breaker." (Me not going isn't enough. The thought of anyone going, even-child-rapist puppy-killers, really bothers me, and contradicts the "forgiveness" and "redemption" and "love" stuff. An eternity of torture is about as opposite to those qualities as it gets.â€

A1: The Christian God has both attributes of Mercy and Justice. Just logically speaking (Bible aside for the moment), another reasonable perspective for the existence of Hell is to administer just punishment for crimes left un-punished in this life. Take a suicide bomber for example. And yes, I know, that you make a good point about an infinite time spent experiencing physical pain (like a finger burnt on a stove) forever and ever versus for say a “10 year sentenceâ€, “life sentence†or even the “death penaltyâ€. More later on the reasonableness of the infinite time frame aspect to the Hell describe in the Bible. But for now, isn’t it just a little reasonable that people that have committed hideous crimes against God’s creatures (some if not most even left un-punished in this life) and indeed crimes directly against God Himself as your living Creator, Father (just assume along for the moment the He is our Creator, after all that is the god you asked about)? So anyway, that’s just a quick alternate perspective to your first question. But I would point out the “forgiveness†as you mentioned is by definition a two way street. God (at least as depicted in the Bible) cannot really “forgive†someone that doesn’t want to be “forgivenâ€. Additionally, “Love stuff†is sometimes “though love†i.e. giving someone exactly what they need, even though it’s not exactly their desire.

Q2: “2. No matter your opinion, I urge you to seriously consider what "going to hell" really means. It is very easy to dismiss someone as, "going to hell," but really take an honest look at exactly what this would entail.â€

A2: I have. But I would add, that the “Hell†depicted in the movies/books is NOT necessarily the Hell as truly depicted in the Bible. Satan as well. Ever seen a picture of Satan in a red jump suit with a pitch fork or read Dante’s Inferno? That’s all fiction! But putting the Bible aside for a moment. “going to Hellâ€, what in the world does that mean on a 100% Atheistic/materialist worldview? What afterlife? I mean there’s either an afterlife or there’s not (logically speaking). And as far as I know, we either believe the descriptions of the afterlife alternatives described in the Bible, or there is no afterlife. i.e. no purpose or “goodness†to this life at all. It’s all for naught if materialism is true. So again, logically speaking, how could you “object†to the idea of sending someone to Hell as opposed to Heaven? What’s the proper level balance of a “good†afterlife versus a “bad†afterlife on a worldview that has no afterlife at all. Furthermore, what’s even “good†versus “bad†even in this life if it’s all for naught. Yet, nobody really feels or acts that way. Everybody I ever met (including you) seems to have the idea of justice and good and bad within them. There must be a reason modern humans (as opposed to all other hominids) are the ONLY creature (archaeologically speaking) with the “morals†to object to “Hellâ€. And this from the very earliest evidence I might add associated with Modern humans). Must be based on something new/different than the other hominids. I mean seriously, why not ask any of the millions of other animals not yet extinct or name one that is extinct that could answer your question; “I urge you to seriously consider what "going to hell" really means.â€. Don’t you find that just a little “oddâ€?

Q3: “Forgive me for any unsavory "science" in my post. I know anything past 4000-6000 BC is taboo for many religious folks, but my point was to stimulate thought on how large an eternity actually is (which is impossible to completely do)â€

A3: You realize that not all “religious folk†are young earth “religious†nor does the Biblical text itself support that view/interpretation as clearly as many “religious†people would have you believe it does. I mean after all, the young earth view has never been un-controversial among Jews and/or Christians. But as you say, that’s another topic altogether. My point is I didn’t think your “science†was “unsavoryâ€. I get infinite’s meaning. I’m an engineer and through my studies I’ve had a lot of “higher†math. Which by the way, there’s a reason that a math solution that results in infinity is not a real number solution! It’s totally amazing that we can substitute infinite limits into calculus and differential equations, work with them using strict rules of math for a while, then come out with a solution that is real in the end. There’s a reason that most higher math academic types believe in God (at least of some form/fashion)! It’s not really that illogical. I mean, theoretically speaking, there’s nothing really speculative about a creator of this 14.5 billion year old universe (time/space/matter/energy) that’s everlasting Himself and yet be poised to do some re-creation all over again. At one point “savory science†thought all time/space/energy/matter was simply here for eternity past (the Bible saying otherwise) and now that infinite past universe is indeed “unsavory scienceâ€. But something created it and creatures that can ask “seriously consider what "going to hell" really means†It’s either the yet unknown laws of physics or the Laws of a Creator. But just off the bat (Bible aside), given our reasonableness to even “seriously consider what "going to hell" really means, I find it at least indicative of a Creator that had the potential to create such as that. And it’s sure not just basic gravity!

My questions to you:

Q1: Are you willing to look at various “Hell†Scriptures within the Bible with an open mind to them actually being truthful?

Q2: Are you willing to admit that much of what you think of “Hell†comes not from the Bible itself, but secular and/or fictional work and it’s therefore not really accurate the what God’s Word does say about Hell?

I suppose you could say that I am "religion shopping." I was born Jewish, but I really have no religion. There is a lot, however, that appeals to me about finding a faith. The hell thing really turns me off. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to love, or even respect any deity involved with such unspeakable horrors.

Again, you realize that “unspeakable horrors†makes little sense given total materialism being true, don’t you? What makes “murder†any better/worse than giving to the poor in need if neither action has more than a 70-90 year meaning (given a 14.5 billion year old universe). I mean many murders actually enjoy what they do, yet most people think they are wrong.

Q3: You say “religion shoppingâ€. Did you mean that literally or are you after the truth, no matter if it’s that “attractive†to you right now or not?

Q4: Where does your grding of what’s objectively “good†and what’s objectively “bad†come from? Just your opinion?

Q5: Have you ever felt like something you did or said was truly “wrongâ€, i.e. objectively wrong in that your actions hurt someone else and they felt pain as a result and you wish you'd not done that?

 

[Pizzaguy]

Your post is well written, I commend you on expressing my own thoughts rather well. Yes, I, a Christian for the past 35 years.

The hell thing really turns me off. I mean no offense, but I find it hard to love, or even respect any deity involved with such unspeakable horrors.

God loves us, sent His son to DIE for us - but He didn't send His son to eternally burn for us, now did He? I find this fact to be very interesting. Christ went thru a LOT for us, He an innocent offering, had to endure for a time to save us from an ETERNITY of torment? Doesn't seem like the math works, to me.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=52402]Pizzaguy[/MENTION]. the german word for hell isn't the lake of fire.for further info on that see my thread in the focus on scripture called sheol. sheol has that torment aspect to as well go there to read. I wont derail this on that.

 

[WIP]

Sorry about that folks. My brain took a dump and I moved this thread by accident.

 

[Hawkins]

God burns devils. So when angels or humans turn themselves to the devils, then they will be burned. As for how time matters, I think that maybe we should leave it to God. We as humans don't even understand the nature of time (in terms of a scientific physics unit).

 

[Guest]

I can't think of anything more evil, twisted, sadistic, and wrong. What possible crime, in a tiny little 70-90 years of existence, could possible warrant such extreme punishment?

Your unbelief in who Jesus Christ is. Jesus didn't die for your sins to save you from hell. He died to bring you life, eternal life.