Hell according to Jesus and His apostles

[Alfred Persson]

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).'
25 "But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the "torment" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo 'to be consoled for sorrow' like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word "torment" (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong's Concordance

This "torment" is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in "anguish" and "sorrow" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the "flame" (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the "agony" or "anguish" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the "flame of God's inspection": "His eyes like a flame" (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The "flame" is the "visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange"(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the "flame" (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The "torments of Hades" are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins "judged according to men in the flesh", if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will "live according to God in the Spirit" apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ:

The Hidden Lesson Behind the Rich Man and Lazarus. – End Time News

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

[Compare the similar wording in 1 Peter 3:18 θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκί, ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit". This implies the "trial/judgment/torment" in hades ends" when they repent and "live according to God in the Spirit" (ζῶσιν δὲ κατὰ θεὸν πνεύματι). Their "spirit" quickened is now abiding surrounded by the Holy Spirit (Compare ἐν ᾧ καὶ "in which also" 1 Pet. 3:19) shielded from any torments.]

After death is a trial, a judgement, so Christ was offered to bear their sins to make possible they pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) and then eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,[1]
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[justbyfaith]

It can be determined pretty easily that anything that Alfred Persson says on the subject of hell is false doctrine.

It should be clear that he holds to the ancient heresy of Universalism and therefore his statements cannot be trusted.

 

[Highway54]

If the "torment" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo 'to be consoled for sorrow' like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word "torment" (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:


This "torment" is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in "anguish" and "sorrow" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):


In Luke 16:24 the "flame" (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the "agony" or "anguish" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the "flame of God's inspection": "His eyes like a flame" (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The "flame" is the "visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange"(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the "flame" (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The "torments of Hades" are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins "judged according to men in the flesh", if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will "live according to God in the Spirit" apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ:

The Hidden Lesson Behind the Rich Man and Lazarus. – End Time News

[Compare the similar wording in 1 Peter 3:18 θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκί, ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit". This implies the "trial/judgment/torment" in hades ends" when they repent and "live according to God in the Spirit" (ζῶσιν δὲ κατὰ θεὸν πνεύματι). Their "spirit" quickened is now abiding surrounded by the Holy Spirit (Compare ἐν ᾧ καὶ "in which also" 1 Pet. 3:19) shielded from any torments.]

After death is a trial, a judgement, so Christ was offered to bear their sins to make possible they pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) and then eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

Best to know what that parable is about sir. To understand it you would have to put yourself into the mindset of those it was given to. It is not about hell at all, it was a warning that a change was about to happen.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Christ knew this twisted dark spiritual doctrine and the fruit that is borne of it :

Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Tenchi]

If the "torment" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue.

Says who? The Rich Man makes no complaint about being unfairly consigned to the fire of torment. He asks only for something to give him a bit of relief. Why is that? Why didn't he cry out for escape from his torment? Instead, his thought is for his brethren and their being kept from his own fate. It seems to me, the absence of any complaint from the Rich Man about being in torment is a silent concession to the fact he was where he deserved to be.

Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38).

Obviously, physical pain produces mental anguish. These things aren't mutually-exclusive, but, rather, very much overlapping. Why, then, are you trying to make them an either-or thing, instead of the both-and that they actually are? It seems to me that, just out of the gate in making a case for your view, you're already employing a false dichotomy, which signals nothing good about the rest of your argument.

This "torment" is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in "anguish" and "sorrow" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

Not necessarily. Torment and suffering don't always, or necessarily, produce repentance and the "purging from sin" that results.

Revelation 9:18-21 (NASB)
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.
19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.
20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:8-11 (NASB)
8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

In Luke 16:24 the "flame" (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the "agony" or "anguish" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the "flame of God's inspection": "His eyes like a flame" (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12).

Nowhere in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is anything like this even hinted at. This is why you've had to go all over Scripture to find passages that you can link to the parable in the vague and artificial way you have in order to make it say what it clearly doesn't. In his parable, Jesus leaves the Rich Man unrelieved in the flames of torment, and offers nothing at the end of his parable to suggest that the Rich Man's condition ever altered. What we do hear from Jesus in other places in the Gospel, though, are things like the following:

Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In none of these instances above does Jesus ever even hint that those thrown into outer darkness, who go away into eternal punishment where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, ever cease to endure this "second death."

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

The "torments of Hades" are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion.

This is nowhere plainly stated in God's word. Instead, only through arcane and complicated efforts can one contort God's word into saying what you have here. A simple, straightforward, natural reading of Scripture leads clearly to the doctrine of eternal, conscious torment in hell. In light of Occham's Razor, the proliferation of explanations for the denial of the plain declaration of God's word exposes the falsity of such a denial. In other words, the very need to erect a long and complicated argument that no one but you could have formed is proof that your view is faulty.

After suffering for their sins "judged according to men in the flesh", if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will "live according to God in the Spirit" apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ:

This is a flat-out lie, sir. Nothing in the New Testament even implies such a thing. Nothing.

[Compare the similar wording in 1 Peter 3:18 θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκί, ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit". This implies the "trial/judgment/torment" in hades ends" when they repent and "live according to God in the Spirit" (ζῶσιν δὲ κατὰ θεὸν πνεύματι).

No it doesn't.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NASB)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Verse 18 is talking about Jesus, the God-Man, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, not about we humans. And the "spirits now in prison" are those, as Peter indicated, who were "once disobedient" in the days of Noah, not everybody in hell. There is nothing in what Peter says in the passage above to indicate that Christ proclaimed the Gospel to these "spirit-prisoners," only that he had made some sort of communication to them concerning God's will, as happened many times in the history of the OT. It seems those in Noah's day to whom such a communication was made by Christ - likely concerning the Ark and God's coming judgment - were, in Peter's time, "spirits in prison," which makes sense since the account of Noah and the Ark tells us that all but Noah and his family died in unrepentant wickedness. And so, these people were "in prison" (aka hell) millennia later in Peter's day, not released through some purgatorial process.

Their "spirit" quickened is now abiding surrounded by the Holy Spirit (Compare ἐν ᾧ καὶ "in which also" 1 Pet. 3:19) shielded from any torments.]

This is an astonishingly contorted handling of Peter's words! Peter is talking, not of the "spirits in prison" when he spoke of the parallel between "the baptism that now saves" and the Ark in which Noah and his family were kept safe from the Flood, but of Christian believers who, being in Christ, are saved, too, from the catastrophic wrath of God upon unrepentant sinners.

After death is a trial, a judgement, so Christ was offered to bear their sins to make possible they pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) and then eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

There is no sixth chapter of 1 Peter. I think you meant 1 Peter 4:6.

1 Peter 4:4-7 (NASB)
4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Peter says nothing in this passage of the wicked who "run to excess dissipation" being preached to in hell. Peter has indicated in this passage only that the Gospel was preached to both living persons and to those who are now dead so that they all might live in the Spirit according to God's will (provided they respond positively, in saving faith, to the Gospel). Peter is trying to be broad in the application of his remarks, but he is not indicating a purgatorial process at all in the above passage.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Best to know what that parable is about sir. To understand it you would have to put yourself into the mindset of those it was given to. It is not about hell at all, it was a warning that a change was about to happen.

I agree, the Pharisees understood perfectly what Christ said. Notice their mocking turned to silence after the prophecy:

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, will be chastised in Hades.

Commentaries cite the appearance of the personal name of Lazarus', which makes it different than a parable.

Evidently Christ is prophesying He would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) who would not listen to Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they don't heed Moses and the prophets and their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). Because it can't be classified a "parable", the symbolism is usually taken as genuine revelation about the Afterlife.

That was against their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; Compare 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

 

[Alfred Persson]

It can be determined pretty easily that anything that Alfred Persson says on the subject of hell is false doctrine.

It should be clear that he holds to the ancient heresy of Universalism and therefore his statements cannot be trusted.

Incorrect. For example, all who accept the Mark of the Beast, worship Satan; stumble one of Christ's children; The Beast and False Prophet....

all suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire.

You neither know my argument or the scripture upon which it is based. So you slander me. Tch Tch. Such is how they treated the prophets and my LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Says who? The Rich Man makes no complaint about being unfairly consigned to the fire of torment. He asks only for something to give him a bit of relief. Why is that? Why didn't he cry out for escape from his torment? Instead, his thought is for his brethren and their being kept from his own fate. It seems to me, the absence of any complaint from the Rich Man about being in torment is a silent concession to the fact he was where he deserved to be.



Obviously, physical pain produces mental anguish. These things aren't mutually-exclusive, but, rather, very much overlapping. Why, then, are you trying to make them an either-or thing, instead of the both-and that they actually are? It seems to me that, just out of the gate in making a case for your view, you're already employing a false dichotomy, which signals nothing good about the rest of your argument.



Not necessarily. Torment and suffering don't always, or necessarily, produce repentance and the "purging from sin" that results.

Revelation 9:18-21 (NASB)
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.
19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.
20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:8-11 (NASB)
8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.



Nowhere in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is anything like this even hinted at. This is why you've had to go all over Scripture to find passages that you can link to the parable in the vague and artificial way you have in order to make it say what it clearly doesn't. In his parable, Jesus leaves the Rich Man unrelieved in the flames of torment, and offers nothing at the end of his parable to suggest that the Rich Man's condition ever altered. What we do hear from Jesus in other places in the Gospel, though, are things like the following:

Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In none of these instances above does Jesus ever even hint that those thrown into outer darkness, who go away into eternal punishment where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, ever cease to endure this "second death."

Continued below.

Alfred Persson said:

If the "torment" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue.

Says who? The Rich Man makes no complaint about being unfairly consigned to the fire of torment. He asks only for something to give him a bit of relief. Why is that? Why didn't he cry out for escape from his torment? Instead, his thought is for his brethren and their being kept from his own fate. It seems to me, the absence of any complaint from the Rich Man about being in torment is a silent concession to the fact he was where he deserved to be.


Says any sane rational person. If one is being eternally tormented in fire, asking for a few drops of water wouldn't cut it.


You made a great response, but its too big to digest in one post so I will split it up, point by point.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Obviously, physical pain produces mental anguish. These things aren't mutually-exclusive, but, rather, very much overlapping. Why, then, are you trying to make them an either-or thing, instead of the both-and that they actually are? It seems to me that, just out of the gate in making a case for your view, you're already employing a false dichotomy, which signals nothing good about the rest of your argument.

Alfred Persson said:

Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38).


Obviously, physical pain produces mental anguish. These things aren't mutually-exclusive, but, rather, very much overlapping. Why, then, are you trying to make them an either-or thing, instead of the both-and that they actually are? It seems to me that, just out of the gate in making a case for your view, you're already employing a false dichotomy, which signals nothing good about the rest of your argument.


In this context its mental anguish, anxiety. That's the meaning as the examples proved:

37 Then they all wept freely, and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him,
38 sorrowing (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship. (Acts 20:37-38 NKJ)

So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao)." (Lk. 2:48 NKJ)

The opposite is "comforted" (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo)

"But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:25 NKJ)

They can overlap, but it contradicts the eisegesis the Rich Man wasn't sorrowful for his sins.

No false dichotomy, just sound exegesis. Heeding the precise wording of Scripture.

I will reply to both your posts, as time permits. Right now, CYA later.

 

[justbyfaith]

Alfred Persson,

The reality is that you believe that there is an escape from hell once a person has been judged and cast therein.

Which is simply not the truth.

If a person suffers in torment in the lake of fire, you believe that that is a refining rather than a punishment.

So, if that is the case, the torment would eventually end, once the refining is done with.

However, the Bible is clear (Matthew 25:46) that the lake of fire is everlasting punishment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson,

The reality is that you believe that there is an escape from hell once a person has been judged and cast therein.

Which is simply not the truth.

If a person suffers in torment in the lake of fire, you believe that that is a refining rather than a punishment.

So, if that is the case, the torment would eventually end, once the refining is done with.

However, the Bible is clear (Matthew 25:46) that the lake of fire is everlasting punishment.

Incorrect. All who die go to Hades/Sheol, both righteous and unrighteous. The "unseen realm" (Hades/Sheol) is divided into sections, angels carry the saved to "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise" which is in "third heaven", "the presence of the LORD" in the New Covenant.

Third heaven (paradise) is still in Hades, which means the unseen realm.

All the unsaved go into the lower regions of Hades/Sheol beneath the earth.

No judgment is required for that to happen, its automatic. All who die without Christ go there.

When the unsaved die, the judgment trial begins. God's inspection is like a fire, He strips away all self-delusion and addiction to sin, restoring the ability of the soul to make an informed Free Will choice.

Then the gospel is preached and all who choose life with God in Christ's Name, then eagerly wait for His coming for their salvation:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

AS for the irredeemably wicked, all who committed eternal sins, they go to "the lowest Sheol/Hades", also called "the pit" and "destruction". There is no "second chance" there.

All Christians died and rose with Christ in Baptism, therefore the symbolism of the martyers includes them in the 1st resurrection/rapture/twinkling of an eye change at the last Trump: They are seated with Christ as His Kings and Priests and do not come under "Krisis" Judgment before the Great White Throne.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)

Then the population of the Millennial Kingdom is tested and all who join Gog and Magog are cast into the lake of fire. So is the Devil who deceived them:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev. 20:7-10 NKJ)

On judgment Day, the survivors of the Millennial Kingdom are judged. They are still "dead" because none of them were given eternal life during the Kingdom. That happens on Judgment Day:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:11-12 NKJ)


Then all in Death, Hades/Sheol and the Sea are raised up to be judged.

Those who obediently heard Christ's voice while in the grave are raised to the resurrection of life, all who did not obey (failed their trial), are raised to a resurrection of condemnation:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

All whose names are in the book of life enter life, all whose name are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-21:1 NKJ)

You err citing the Judgment that happens when Christ and His angels come, both of the sheep and goats and all who done evil that the angels gathered up. That is a final judgment for them, but its not the Great White Throne Judgment that happens after the 1,000 reign of Christ:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-26:1 NKJ)


41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:41-43 NKJ)

You still don't grasp God gives all the survivors of Armageddon, who weren't "sheep or goats or those who practice lawlessness", a second chance. That is why the Millennial Kingdom exists, so they can enter and be judged.

They also repopulate the earth because God wants billions and billions and billions of humans in His Kingdom, just as He has an innumerable army of angels.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson,

The reality is that you believe that there is an escape from hell once a person has been judged and cast therein.

Which is simply not the truth.

If a person suffers in torment in the lake of fire, you believe that that is a refining rather than a punishment.

So, if that is the case, the torment would eventually end, once the refining is done with.

However, the Bible is clear (Matthew 25:46) that the lake of fire is everlasting punishment.

Never said that. The lake of fire isn't a second chance, its the second death. Finito. The End.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nowhere in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is anything like this even hinted at. This is why you've had to go all over Scripture to find passages that you can link to the parable in the vague and artificial way you have in order to make it say what it clearly doesn't. In his parable, Jesus leaves the Rich Man unrelieved in the flames of torment, and offers nothing at the end of his parable to suggest that the Rich Man's condition ever altered. What we do hear from Jesus in other places in the Gospel, though, are things like the following:

Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 22:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In none of these instances above does Jesus ever even hint that those thrown into outer darkness, who go away into eternal punishment where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, ever cease to endure this "second death."

Continued below.

Alfred Persson said:

This "torment" is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in "anguish" and "sorrow" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

Not necessarily. Torment and suffering don't always, or necessarily, produce repentance and the "purging from sin" that results.

What kind of argument is that? "Not necessarily?" Few things in existence are "necessary", that isn't proof against its existence. I cited texts showing "purging from sin is common in the Old Testament".


No comment on those? That's the proof you claim I don't have. Its in the OT.

 

[Alfred Persson]

In none of these instances above does Jesus ever even hint that those thrown into outer darkness, who go away into eternal punishment where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, ever cease to endure this "second death."

Continued below.

I agree. Second chance doesn't apply to those cast into eternal punishment.

I disagree the Rich Man and others like him in Hades, are being eternally punished. Hades is NOT the Lake of Fire.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is nowhere plainly...

Alfred Persson said:

The "torments of Hades" are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion.

This is nowhere plainly stated in God's word. Instead, only through arcane and complicated efforts can one contort God's word into saying what you have here. A simple, straightforward, natural reading of Scripture leads clearly to the doctrine of eternal, conscious torment in hell. In light of Occham's Razor, the proliferation of explanations for the denial of the plain declaration of God's word exposes the falsity of such a denial. In other words, the very need to erect a long and complicated argument that no one but you could have formed is proof that your view is faulty.

Incorrect, the OT is filled with scriptures depicting repentance in Sheol/Hades and forgiveness. Here's a list:

Many Old Testament Scriptures speak of redemption from hell:

Therefore, it is implicit in every Old Testament text which speaks of prayers for forgiveness of sin and God's redeeming souls from hell supports the conclusion God grants a second chance for life in Hell.

"For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" (Ezek. 18:32 NKJ)

---

39 `Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. (Deut. 32:39 NKJ)

God kills but also makes alive, He wounds but also heals. That God smites in punishment but mercifully heals is a common theme (Hos. 6:1; Isa. 30:26; 57:17, 18; Jer. 17:14).

"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. (1 Sam. 2:6 NKJ)

God makes alive those He killed, brings up from the grave those He put there. That is a second chance.

5 `When the waves of death surrounded me, The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
6 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears.
…
17 "He sent from above, He took me, He drew me out of many waters.
18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, From those who hated me; For they were too strong for me.
19 They confronted me in the day of my calamity, But the LORD was my support.
20 He also brought me out into a broad place; He delivered me because He delighted in me. (2 Sam. 22:5-20 NKJ)

The prophet David could not analogize his troubles to God's salvation from Sheol if he didn't believe it exists.
Even from His Temple far away God hears the plea of those suffering the sorrows of Hell (Sheol), and rescues them from the snares of Death.

10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore. (Ps. 16:10-11 NKJ)

The prophet David speaking by Holy Spirit (Acts 2:30-31) of the Christ professed his belief God would not leave his soul in hell, but would show him the "path of life" and raise him from the dead. Essentially, a second chance for life.

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth-- Praise to our God; Many will see it and fear, And will trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 NKJ)

God hears David's cry from hell and he saved from hell. That's a second chance.

15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah (Ps. 49:15 NKJ)

Redemption from death is a second chance.

For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living? (Ps. 56:13 NKJ)

Deliverance from death is a "second chance".

You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even from the rebellious, That the LORD God might dwell there. (Ps. 68:18 NKJ)

Leading repentant captives of death to heaven that the LORD might dwell among them is a second chance. Compare 1 Peter 3:18-22; Eph. 1:20-23; 4:8-10.

13 But as for me, my prayer is to You, O LORD, in the acceptable time; O God, in the multitude of Your mercy, Hear me in the truth of Your salvation.
14 Deliver me out of the mire, And let me not sink; Let me be delivered from those who hate me, And out of the deep waters.
15 Let not the floodwater overflow me, Nor let the deep swallow me up; And let not the pit shut its mouth on me.
16 Hear me, O LORD, for Your lovingkindness is good; Turn to me according to the multitude of Your tender mercies.
17 And do not hide Your face from Your servant, For I am in trouble; Hear me speedily.
18 Draw near to my soul, and redeem it; Deliver me because of my enemies. (Ps. 69:13-18 NKJ)

Being delivered from hell after repentance is a second chance.

19 Also Your righteousness, O God, is very high, You who have done great things; O God, who is like You?
20 You, who have shown me great and severe troubles, Shall revive me again, And bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
21 You shall increase my greatness, And comfort me on every side.
22 Also with the lute I will praise you-- And Your faithfulness, O my God! To You I will sing with the harp, O Holy One of Israel.
23 My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing to You, And my soul, which You have redeemed. (Ps. 71:19-23 NKJ)

Redemption from depths of the earth also describes a second chance.

12 I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (Ps. 86:12-13 NKJ)

The deliverance of a soul from hell is a second chance.

18 This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To release those appointed to death,
21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem,
22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. (Ps. 102:18-22 NKJ)

Releasing "those appointed to death" is a second chance.

2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits:
3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases,
4 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies (Ps. 103:2-4 NKJ)

Forgiving sins then redeeming from destruction is a second chance.

1 I love the LORD, because He has heard My voice and my supplications.
2 Because He has inclined His ear to me, Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
6 The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me.
7 Return to your rest, O my soul, For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD In the land of the living. (Ps. 116:1-9 NKJ)

Calling upon the LORD to save from hell is what happens during a "second chance."

4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning,
5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.
6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. (Isa. 4:4-6 NKJ)

God purges away sin and self-delusion by the Spirit of judgment and burning. Same process would exist in a "second chance".

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes." (Hos. 13:14 )

Ransom from the grave is a second chance.

1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish's belly.
2 And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the floods surrounded me; All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said,`I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.'
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.
7 "When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.
8 "Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD." (Jon. 2:1-9 NKJ)

Jonah is the perfect example of someone given a second chance.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is a flat-out lie, sir. Nothing in the New Testament even implies such a thing. Nothing.

Alfred Persson said:

After suffering for their sins "judged according to men in the flesh", if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will "live according to God in the Spirit" apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ:

This is a flat-out lie, sir. Nothing in the New Testament even implies such a thing. Nothing.

Incredible. Here are the verses:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

I agree, the Pharisees understood perfectly what Christ said. Notice their mocking turned to silence after the prophecy:

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, will be chastised in Hades.

Commentaries cite the appearance of the personal name of Lazarus', which makes it different than a parable.

Evidently Christ is prophesying He would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) who would not listen to Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they don't heed Moses and the prophets and their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). Because it can't be classified a "parable", the symbolism is usually taken as genuine revelation about the Afterlife.

That was against their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; Compare 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

I agree, the Pharisees understood perfectly what Christ said.

Interesting that you understand that, but I would imagine we understand it differently Alfred.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Interesting that you understand that, but I would imagine we understand it differently Alfred.

Of course we do. We have clear proof souls survive physical death. You reject that. That Hades is the abode of disembodied souls. You reject that. The Pharisees believed Abraham wouldn't permit their entry into Gehenna/Hades. Christ contradict that teaching. You ignore that. The Rich Man was sorrowful for his sin. You ignore that. Abraham and the redeemed in "paradise" wanted to help the Rich Man in Torments. You don't believe that. There is an impassible gulf separating Hades from Paradise. You don't believe any of it literally exists.

So, we understand it very differently. I believe its real actual revelation about the afterlife, you do not.

 

[Tenchi]

If the "torment" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue.

Says who? The Rich Man makes no complaint about being unfairly consigned to the fire of torment. He asks only for something to give him a bit of relief. Why is that? Why didn't he cry out for escape from his torment? Instead, his thought is for his brethren and their being kept from his own fate. It seems to me, the absence of any complaint from the Rich Man about being in torment is a silent concession to the fact he was where he deserved to be.


Says any sane rational person. If one is being eternally tormented in fire, asking for a few drops of water wouldn't cut it.

But you don't get to work Christ's parable around to what you want it to say, forcing your own ideas into it. That's eisegesis, which is pretty much the worst way to handle God's word. The Rich Man is in torment but he doesn't ask to be released from his torment, nor does he say that his place in torment is unfair. He wants only for his brethren to avoid his fate. This is what Jesus related in his parable; nothing more. What does it mean that the Rich Man does not seek release from his place in the flames of torment? As you say, that should have been his first and only plea. But it isn't. As I consider this point, it seems very evident to me that he did not ask to be freed from torment because he knew he was where he deserved to be. So far, you've not offered anything that serves as a reasonable alternative explanation for the Rich Man's total silence on his own release from torment.

In this context its mental anguish, anxiety. That's the meaning as the examples proved:

37 Then they all wept freely, and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him,
38 sorrowing (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship. (Acts 20:37-38 NKJ)

So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao)." (Lk. 2:48 NKJ)

The opposite is "comforted" (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo)

"But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:25 NKJ)

They can overlap, but it contradicts the eisegesis the Rich Man wasn't sorrowful for his sins.

But in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus when Jesus said the Rich Man was in torment, the word for "torment" in Greek is "basanos," which means simply "pain," or "torment," (derived, perhaps, from a word referring to a touchstone used to test that nature of various metals). When the Rich Man spoke for himself, describing his condition he says, "I am in agony." Here, "agony" in Greek is "odunao" which doesn't necessarily mean "mental anguish." In fact, if this had been what Jesus meant to convey, he would have likely used "agonia" which, in Greek, more specifically and commonly referred to severe mental and emotional anguish. Instead, Jesus used the word "odunao" which is a much more non-specific term referring generally to "suffering pain." In the context of the parable, "odunao" parallels "basanos," both terms communicating the same idea of pain, but neither term in Greek normally indicating mental anguish.

Did the Rich Man communicate anything about sorrowing over his sin? No. He says nothing about his own wickedness and his feelings concerning it. A natural reading of the parable links the "agony" of the Rich Man, not to some internal moral regret, but to the tormenting flames he was in:

Luke 16:24 (NASB)
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

See? The Rich Man's concern was for a moment's cooling of his tongue, not his conscience; he wanted a moment's respite from the agony of the flame, not from regret of his past sinfulness. This is clear as day to me as I read the Rich Man's words.

Alfred Persson said:

This "torment" is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in "anguish" and "sorrow" (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

Not necessarily. Torment and suffering don't always, or necessarily, produce repentance and the "purging from sin" that results.

What kind of argument is that? "Not necessarily?" Few things in existence are "necessary", that isn't proof against its existence. I cited texts showing "purging from sin is common in the Old Testament".


No comment on those? That's the proof you claim I don't have. Its in the OT.

But as I showed above, in context, within the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus itself, your contortion of terms doesn't fly. It is entirely eisegesis - forcing into the text what you want - to read "torment" as "sorrow for sin." Such sorrow is not even hinted at in the parable. The Rich Man only speaks of a cooling of his tongue, not his conscience, and complains of the agony of the flame, not of a sorrowful heart.

And it is biblical proof I gave you that shows that suffering doesn't always produce repentance and purging from sin. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, then, there is nothing in text of the parable, nor in the idea that suffering produces repentance, that requires the sort of reading of the parable that you're trying to suggest.

I disagree the Rich Man and others like him in Hades, are being eternally punished. Hades is NOT the Lake of Fire.

No, it's not the Lake of Fire, but it is the precursor to it, those in the torment of flame immediately upon their death going ultimately into the Lake of Fire.