How did understanding and embracing Preterism affect your faith?

[Dorothy Mae]

In my opinion, it's the worst heresy ever taught in Christiandom.

I agree.

I believe Jesus said that because the Prophets were testifying of him. Otherwise, he would be holding people accountable for the murders of people they never met, which would be unjust.

Could be although they had the same attitude towards the prophets who testified of Jesus.

I believe the Revelation encompasses all of history. I see it pertaining to anyone who knows our Lord vs. anyone who doesn't.

The difficulty with this view that seems all encompassing is that when Revelation applies to everyone it means it applies to
no one in particular. The letters to the churches, for example, were written to particular people, not everyone. Few but true Words from Jesus to you in particular have more power than all the other words he gave to everyone else put together.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, but in 2Pet.2:1-9, Peter says God knows how to deliver his people from temptation. It could be if Lot had stayed in Sodom, he may have fallen away.

My increasingly dear Journeyman, if Lot had stayed in Sodom he would have been toast. God wasn’t saving him from sin but from death.

Peter also likens the destruction of Sodom to the final judgement, so his warning goes beyond 70AD.

I don’t see that. Jerusalem was destroyed and the whole of the Mosaic covenant with it. As in Noah’s day and Sodom, the righteous were physically kept safe. Their lives (bodies) were preserved. That event in 70 AD was the final destruction and judgement on those who pierced Him. I don’t see it coming again. Jesus actually said it won’t.

Also, our King often taught that our safety was in him. He didn't seem overly concerned with the preservation of our lives in this flesh,
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. Lk.12:4
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying we shouldn't flee from people who want to harm us, but we shouldn't be afraid of them either.

There’s a difference between our attitude (fear not as you point out) and a kind of “life doesn’t matter”view. Christianity above all world views places a high priority on human life. Our view is not this life doesn’t matter. This life and what we do very much matters. We will be judged on what we do in the body.

We are to fear God and not man. God highly values human life and so should we. God warned Lot to leave valuing his life. He warned the believers to leave highly valuing their lives.

We are not to fear evil men. We are to fear God and obey Him, even if it risks our lives. We aren’t to risk our lives for any other reason including rejection of the value He places on human bodies.

 

[journeyman]

Could be although they had the same attitude towards the prophets who testified of Jesus.

Exactly. Jesus said,
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16

Judgement for the blood of Abel to Zachariah would fall on people of later generations because people hated the word of God.

The difficulty with this view that seems all encompassing is that when Revelation applies to everyone it means it applies to
no one in particular. The letters to the churches, for example, were written to particular people, not everyone. Few but true Words from Jesus to you in particular have more power than all the other words he gave to everyone else put together.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding your point. My point is, the NT and the OT that supports it was written for the entire world. I believe the "revelation" of Jesus Christ is just what it says. It's his unveiling, or to know him in a more complete way. Although characters described in the book may refer to specific time periods, the events being described are mostly no different from the results of those events that have happened throughout history and continue in the future.

 

[journeyman]

My increasingly dear Journeyman, if Lot had stayed in Sodom he would have been toast. God wasn’t saving him from sin but from death.

The story is a picture of final judgment, not final judgment itself, where the lake of fire consumes all evil.
Lot was a light to the Sodomites, but if God had allowed that society to remain, its possible that Lot might have fallen away. Peter says,
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations...2Pet.2:9
He's speaking of Lot.

I don’t see that. Jerusalem was destroyed and the whole of the Mosaic covenant with it. As in Noah’s day and Sodom, the righteous were physically kept safe. Their lives (bodies) were preserved. That event in 70 AD was the final destruction and judgement on those who pierced Him. I don’t see it coming again. Jesus actually said it won’t.

I think those judgments are final in the sense that once someone dies in a state of sin, they're imprisoned awaiting final judgment.

There’s a difference between our attitude (fear not as you point out) and a kind of “life doesn’t matter”view. Christianity above all world views places a high priority on human life. Our view is not this life doesn’t matter. This life and what we do very much matters. We will be judged on what we do in the body.

We are to fear God and not man. God highly values human life and so should we. God warned Lot to leave valuing his life. He warned the believers to leave highly valuing their lives.

We are not to fear evil men. We are to fear God and obey Him, even if it risks our lives. We aren’t to risk our lives for any other reason including rejection of the value He places on human bodies.

I agree. I only meant the end of our human bodies isn't the end of us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The story is a picture of final judgment, not final judgment itself, where the lake of fire consumes all evil.
Lot was a light to the Sodomites, but if God had allowed that society to remain, its possible that Lot might have fallen away. Peter says,
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations...2Pet.2:9
He's speaking of Lot.

When did God say that was the reason he destroyed Sodom, that is, to save Lot? What was the reason God gave for destroying the cities?

Think of the parable if the different types of soils. God delivered none of those plants before they fell into temptation. And don’t you think that’s really unjust to burn whole cities lest a believer fall into temptation? Jesus said “it’s necessary that temptations come but wie to him through whom they come.” That doesn’t sound like God kills the tempters BEFORE the righteous can be tempted.

I think those judgments are final in the sense that once someone dies in a state of sin, they're imprisoned awaiting final judgment.

That I can agree with.

I agree. I only meant the end of our human bodies isn't the end of us.

Agreed again.

 

[journeyman]

When did God say that was the reason he destroyed Sodom, that is, to save Lot? What was the reason God gave for destroying the cities?

Think of the parable if the different types of soils. God delivered none of those plants before they fell into temptation. And don’t you think that’s really unjust to burn whole cities lest a believer fall into temptation? Jesus said “it’s necessary that temptations come but wie to him through whom they come.” That doesn’t sound like God kills the tempters BEFORE the righteous can be tempted.

The idea of judgment falling on the wicked to prevent corruption is taught in scripture (see Deut.20:17-18). The only reason I mentioned it, is because Peter mentioned it.
I didn't mean to imply that Lot needed to be saved by the destruction of Sodom. I believe Lot was already saved, but I think what the story shows is how Lot was warned and escaped judgment. Of course, judgment is really escaped by giving ones' life to Christ, not be walking or running to another physical location. I think the parable you cited sows that very well

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The idea of judgment falling on the wicked to prevent corruption is taught in scripture (see Deut.20:17-18). The only reason I mentioned it, is because Peter mentioned it.

Then why is there corruption if God takes responsibility for ending it before it can happen? Please show me where Sodom was purged to prevent Lot from corruption. Frankly speaking, from observation of his words and deeds it was too late anyway.

You know, your scripture tells man you execute that sort of judgement, not God.

I didn't mean to imply that Lot needed to be saved by the destruction of Sodom. I believe Lot was already saved, but I think what the story shows is how Lot was warned and escaped judgment.

Yes but he had to be dragged. God promised not to have the righteous suffer the judgement of the wicked.

Of course, judgment is really escaped by giving ones' life to Christ, not be walking or running to another physical location. I think the parable you cited sows that very well

Thank you and I agree.

 

[journeyman]

Then why is there corruption if God takes responsibility for ending it before it can happen?

God gives people space to repent. We're being made in Christs' image now. There is no corruption in him.

Please show me where Sodom was purged to prevent Lot from corruption.

I cited 2Pet.2:9, where it refers to Lot. I also showed in Deut.20:17-18 how God used judgment to prevent the spread of wickedness.

Frankly speaking, from observation of his words and deeds it was too late anyway.

I don't know what you mean by this.

You know, your scripture tells man you execute that sort of judgement, not God.

I believe the OT should be viewed in a spiritual sense. His word is like a sword. He said judgment would fall on the unrepentant for rejecting his testimony, which he gives us to share with the world. So in that sense, he does put the ungodly to death by us.
Paul said believers would judge angels. in my opinion, we won't have to point fingers. Our lives in Christ wull be all that is needed.

Yes but he had to be dragged. God promised not to have the righteous suffer the judgement of the wicked.

Yes, but leaving the city that's going to be destroyed truly occurs within a persons heart. It's the same with becoming a citizen of Gods' city,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb.12:22
We didn't need to get on a plane to get there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God gives people space to repent. We're being made in Christs' image now. There is no corruption in him.

That is all true but I cannot think of a time where God Himself destroyed people so they didn’t corrupt others. God knows how to keep us from temptation and it involves us resisting. We are not passive.

I cited 2Pet.2:9, where it refers to Lot. I also showed in Deut.20:17-18 how God used judgment to prevent the spread of wickedness.

In Deuteronomy the people, not God, were told to kill the offenders. There isn’t actually any indication God is judging them. It might be the case, but they are not told to kill others because He is judging them. In Sodom, no man killed the inhabitants. That’s a big difference.

“He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction,b reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;c 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.”

The New Testament clearly promises us trials. There is no promise that God will kill the wicked so we don’t fall into temptation. The ungodly will face judgement for sure. God provides ways of escape to be sure but killing the tempters isn’t one of them. Surely it’s easy to see why this method would be fairly devastating.

I don't know what you mean by this.


I believe the OT should be viewed in a spiritual sense.

Just consider this, if we spiritualize every story, then we have no account of events that happened in time and space to real people. The events in Hebrews 11 that are described as happening to real people giving us hope no longer do so. If receiving the dead doesn’t mean your daughter who died is breathing and alive but just means she wasn’t a believer but became one, it is significantly less powerful. Just something to consider.

His word is like a sword. He said judgment would fall on the unrepentant for rejecting his testimony, which he gives us to share with the world. So in that sense, he does put the ungodly to death by us.
Paul said believers would judge angels. in my opinion, we won't have to point fingers. Our lives in Christ wull be all that is needed.

I actually think we are salt and light to the ungodly.

Yes, but leaving the city that's going to be destroyed truly occurs within a persons heart. It's the same with becoming a citizen of Gods' city,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb.12:22
We didn't need to get on a plane to get there.

There are metaphors in the Word and there are accounts that are not metaphors but happened to real people.

 

[journeyman]

That is all true but I cannot think of a time where God Himself destroyed people so they didn’t corrupt others. God knows how to keep us from temptation and it involves us resisting. We are not passive.

Sorry for the long reply. I've been very busy . I agrre we are not passive.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 2Cor.4:10

In Deuteronomy the people, not God, were told to kill the offenders. There isn’t actually any indication God is judging them. It might be the case, but they are not told to kill others because He is judging them. In Sodom, no man killed the inhabitants. That’s a big difference.

I understand men killed men. My point is, they did so at Gods' instruction. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.

“He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction,b reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;c 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.”

The New Testament clearly promises us trials. There is no promise that God will kill the wicked so we don’t fall into temptation. The ungodly will face judgement for sure. God provides ways of escape to be sure but killing the tempters isn’t one of them. Surely it’s easy to see why this method would be fairly devastating.

It's devastating to the people or person experiencing it and it's my opinion that judgment can come from God in different ways using any method he desires.

Just consider this, if we spiritualize every story, then we have no account of events that happened in time and space to real people.

The NT uses the OT as a picture of the promised land,
Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them outand destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
Deut.9:3

The events in Hebrews 11 that are described as happening to real people giving us hope no longer do so. If receiving the dead doesn’t mean your daughter who died is breathing and alive but just means she wasn’t a believer but became one, it is significantly less powerful. Just something to consider.

I actually think we are salt and light to the ungodly.

There are metaphors in the Word and there are accounts that are not metaphors but happened to real people.

I get what you're saying sis. I understand how our meek gentle Savior taught the law as it pertains to me and no one else. I want mercy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry for the long reply. I've been very busy . I agrre we are not passive.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 2Cor.4:10


I understand men killed men. My point is, they did so at Gods' instruction. They wouldn't have done it otherwise.

Correct but it wasn’t God eliminating people so the righteous don’t get tempted. That was your position and God just doesn’t do that. The way of escape is not to kill the tempters.

It's devastating to the people or person experiencing it and it's my opinion that judgment can come from God in different ways using any method he desires.

True but that doesn’t mean we can make up what that is. God doesn’t kill those tempting the righteous to save them. Jesus actually said it’s necessary that temptations come.

The NT uses the OT as a picture of the promised land,
Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them outand destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
Deut.9:3

Can you give me examples of where God went before you in real life and killed other people to make your way smooth please? As I said, I’m a scientist and I test theories in real life. So if your understanding is correct, there ought examples of human bodies destroyed for your personal benefit.

I get what you're saying sis. I understand how our meek gentle Savior taught the law as it pertains to me and no one else. I want mercy.

Well, justice is also pretty nice. Jesus was also fairly swift and delivered justice too (70 AD.)

 

[journeyman]

Correct but it wasn’t God eliminating people so the righteous don’t get tempted. That was your position and God just doesn’t do that. The way of escape is not to kill the tempters.

True but that doesn’t mean we can make up what that is. God doesn’t kill those tempting the righteous to save them. Jesus actually said it’s necessary that temptations come.

Can you give me examples of where God went before you in real life and killed other people to make your way smooth please? As I said, I’m a scientist and I test theories in real life. So if your understanding is correct, there ought examples of human bodies destroyed for your personal benefit.

I've already done that my friend. You dismissed the scripture I cited as not applying correctly.
.

Well, justice is also pretty nice. Jesus was also fairly swift and delivered justice too (70 AD.)

Using men to deliver it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've already done that my friend. You dismissed the scripture I cited as not applying correctly.
.

Because in that scripture God didn’t kill people so the righteous aren’t tempted. It doesn’t say what you want and elsewhere Jesus actually says it’s necessary that temptations come.

Using men to deliver it.

Jerusalem wasn’t destroyed to prevent those evil people from tempting the righteous.

It’s NECESSARY that temptations come. He didn’t say that it’s necessary that God kills tempters.

 

[journeyman]

Because in that scripture God didn’t kill people so the righteous aren’t tempted. It doesn’t say what you want and elsewhere Jesus actually says it’s necessary that temptations come.

We're going around in circles.

Jerusalem wasn’t destroyed to prevent those evil people from tempting the righteous.

It’s NECESSARY that temptations come. He didn’t say that it’s necessary that God kills tempters.

He said it in Deuteronomy. He didn't say it in the NT because he said,

I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47

I'm sorry you disagree that judgment is Gods' only reason for killing unrepentant sinners.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We're going around in circles.

Mostly you won’t accept that God doesn’t kill tempters to save the righteous from temptation. Let’s move on.

He said it in Deuteronomy. He didn't say it in the NT because he said,

I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47

And yet Jesus judged Jerusalem in the NT.

I'm sorry you disagree that judgment is Gods' only reason for killing unrepentant sinners.

I don’t see God killing the unrepentant sinners around me. It’s appointed once to die and THEN comes judgement although there are rare exceptions and they are for sin, not to protect the righteous.

 

[journeyman]

Mostly you won’t accept that God doesn’t kill tempters to save the righteous from temptation. Let’s move on.

Ok, but I cited Deuteronomy to show it was Gods' command. It was his will. They followed his instruction. He used them as his agency. So to say God doesn't kill to keep temptation at bay isn't true. He gave the reason for it.

And yet Jesus judged Jerusalem in the NT.

He said it would come.

I don’t see God killing the unrepentant sinners around me. It’s appointed once to die and THEN comes judgement although there are rare exceptions and they are for sin, not to protect the righteous.

Quite frankly sis, I don't see a lot of things God is doing around me, but I'm learning.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As far as leaving possessions behind it matches, but in Luke, Jesus seems to be referring to his 2nd coming,

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Lk.17:30

He seems to be talking about another time frame, because what person in their right mind would see an army coming to destroy to destroy his city and have to remember Lots' wife? Wouldn't a normal reaction be, "Let's get out of here."

I read the Luke passage and it’s the same as in Matthew. Talks about the same circumstances, but thee 2nd coming.

 

[journeyman]

I read the Luke passage and it’s the same as in Matthew. Talks about the same circumstances, but thee 2nd coming.

I agree with you. I just think it's a little odd in how people see danger coming, but react differently to it, as Lots' wife wanted to stay, as if she wasn't aware of impending doom.
And something I just now noticed. I never saw this before. Just before our Lord spoke of the days of Noah and Job, he says,

But first must he suffer many things, and be rejectedof this generation. Lk.17:25

Noah was rejected by the people of his day and Job was vexed by all his neighbors. It's clear the people in those days didn't see the danger in forsaking the Righteous. That's been for 2000 years now.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Dear brothers and sisters, if any of you would be so kind as to give us a testimony of how leaving the more commonly held eschatology of futurists and embracing preterism affected your faith, I’d be very interested.

This is not intended as a debate about the details or the different varies per se, but more how understanding changed your faith.

I’ll prime the pump. When I heard a lecture on this I looked into the writings of Josephus and the dawning that the horrible events described in Mathew 24 and Revelation match the events leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, several scriptures fell into place and joy ensued. The was a freedom and a hope for my life, my children’s and the world. It is akin to the joy of experiencing your sins being forgiven and that burden lifted. To see that the prophetic words of Jesus as to the timing of the horrible events he spoke of march perfectly with actual historical events was thrilling. He knew and he told the truth. Many scriptures that had made no sense suddenly made sense. I felt a freedom intellectually and emotionally. Anyone else care to share?

Dr. Kenneth Gentry, Jr., Dr. Bruce Gore, and David Chilton helped me the most as I studied eschatology. I went from Amill, to sorta in the Historic Premill view(Matthew 25:31-46 & John 5:28-29 I couldnt get it to jive with that view), I am now postmill.

 

[jasonc]

I'm none of the above .their good points to all but if the early church thought it was settled in and 70 as preterism says .they would have plainly said it .

Many didn't .

Glad eschatology isn't a requirement to get to heaven