Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

How to defend the trinity!

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
552
Joined
May 16, 2021
How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone?
Don't you think Jesus's own words in Matthew Chapter 28 would be sufficient ?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,754
Joined
Jun 13, 2014

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,754
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Bible why do you need to defend the Trinity as the carnal mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit.

FHG,

How, then, do you answer the content of 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV), "But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"?

If I follow your statement, I would have wasted years of my life in defending the Christian faith, including the Trinity. In addition, I would have been disobedient to the Word of God (1 Pet 3:15 ESV).

The carnal mind needs apologia (apologetics) combined with the Holy Spirit's dynamite to break through the stubborn heart. I must never give up on the "carnal mind" because of the Spirit's power.

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,754
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

JLB,

Those are not the words of the earliest MSS: "7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 Jn 5:7-8 ESV).

Oz
 

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
Staff member
Administrator
From
South Carolina
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Messages
20,710
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
FHG,

How, then, do you answer the content of 1 Peter 3:15 (ESV), "But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"?

If I follow your statement, I would have wasted years of my life in defending the Christian faith, including the Trinity. In addition, I would have been disobedient to the Word of God (1 Pet 3:15 ESV).

The carnal mind needs apologia (apologetics) combined with the Holy Spirit's dynamite to break through the stubborn heart. I must never give up on the "carnal mind" because of the Spirit's power.

Oz
Good point. Thank you for correcting my error. I think I'm using the word defend in a different way. I deleted my post.

The only way to defend, as I see the word meaning to teach, is by the concept that we read in scripture of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being one, but yet distinctly in God's purpose. Trinity is the hardest teaching to understand and I don't think any of us can understand it completely, but only in part.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,234
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
JLB,

Those are not the words of the earliest MSS: "7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 Jn 5:7-8 ESV).

Oz

I dont recognize those newer translations. They tend to leave out verses.


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 KJV


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 NKJV


If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three, then so be it.





JLB
 
Last edited:

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,754
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
I dont recognize those newer translations. They tend to leave out verses.


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 KJV


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 NKJV


If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three, then so be it.


JLB

JLB,

You won't understand the different translations of 1 John 5:7 until you recognize the KJV and NKJV you cited are based on the Textus Receptus Greek MSS of Erasmus in 1516, while the newer translations are based on the United Bible Societies eclectic Greek text - using earlier MSS.

When did Erasmus compile the Textus Receptus?

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,754
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
We shouldn’t have to defend the Trinity.
We should share it with those that have a hunger to receive it.

SB,

Why not? Every doctrine needs to be expounded biblically.

Why is there such a reluctance to defend the sound doctrine of Scripture in this thread?

Oz
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,234
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
JLB,

You won't understand the different translations of 1 John 5:7 until you recognize the KJV and NKJV you cited are based on the Textus Receptus Greek MSS of Erasmus in 1516, while the newer translations are based on the United Bible Societies eclectic Greek text - using earlier MSS.

When did Erasmus compile the Textus Receptus?

Oz


Again, If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three, then so be it.


Some commentary that you tend to favor isn’t going to change what I believe by studying the whole counsel of God.


Do you believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one?


I believe we can all have a common belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, and therefore find common ground.




I don’t know what “Erasmus” compiled or when he compiled it, or who decided he did what he did. I certainly can’t prove from scripture when he compiled the “Textus Receptus”, and would have to rely on someone’s opinion as to whether he did or didn’t or when he did or didn’t.












JLB
 
Last edited:

Bible

 
Member
From
Dallas
Gender
Male
Messages
516
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
 

jaybo

 
Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,183
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
JLB,

Those are not the words of the earliest MSS: "7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 Jn 5:7-8 ESV).

Oz
What specifically are "the earliest MSS"?
 

jaybo

 
Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,183
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
I dont recognize those newer translations. They tend to leave out verses.


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 KJV


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 NKJV


If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three, then so be it.





JLB
There is some faulty logic! The newer translations are based on more and better manuscripts, coupled with many non-Biblical documents that aid in understanding the ancient languages and cultures. The KJV is both dated and inaccurate.

What does "If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three" mean? On what do you base this conclusion?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,234
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
There is some faulty logic! The newer translations are based on more and better manuscripts, coupled with many non-Biblical documents that aid in understanding the ancient languages and cultures. The KJV is both dated and inaccurate.


Says who?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,234
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
What does "If your study of scripture leads you to conclude that the Eternal Godhead, the Elohim is not Three" mean? On what do you base this conclusion?


It’s not a conclusion.

It simply means I’m not going to argue about non biblically based information.





JLB
 
Top