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How to defend the trinity!

D-D-W

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It's a Protestant sect just dressed up (quite literally) and incorporating Jewish rituals. You'll see people at their services even donning tallits.

Moishe Rosen became an ordained Baptist minister. His goal was to simply appeal to Jews and what better way than to appeal to their traditions and incorporate them into his sect.
And you think someone with that name is NOT Jewish???

Tell me of one traditional Jewish seminary of any denomination who would ordain as Rabbi a Jew who believes in Jesus?
 

WIP

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I'm wondering how the latest conversations in this thread have anything to do with defending the Trinity. Seems this conversation has gone a bit off track.
 

Edward

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Ok, I'll bite. Everyone knows of God the Father. While His Son was essentially codified in the OT, He was revealed to man through the personage of Jesus the Christ.


And when Jesus was with His disciples He told them Many times of the Father...then when He was about to leave because His mission here had been accomplished, He told them all about the Holy Spirit, the Comforter...whi will teacg us all truths.

So there you have it in a nutshell. Trinity. Father Son and Holy Spirit. What's hard to understand about this? Nothing.
 

Walpole

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And you think someone with that name is NOT Jewish???
That was my point. Moishe Rosen was Jewish and become an ordained Baptist. He is the father of the modern Messianic Jew movement and I mention him being a Baptist as support for my assertion that Messianic Jews are simply just another Protestant sect.
Tell me of one traditional Jewish seminary of any denomination who would ordain as Rabbi a Jew who believes in Jesus?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Walpole

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I'm wondering how the latest conversations in this thread have anything to do with defending the Trinity. Seems this conversation has gone a bit off track.
If you scroll back a few pages, around here, a few posters insisted Jews actually believed in the Trinity.
 

Walpole

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Ok, I'll bite. Everyone knows of God the Father. While His Son was essentially codified in the OT, He was revealed to man through the personage of Jesus the Christ.


And when Jesus was with His disciples He told them Many times of the Father...then when He was about to leave because His mission here had been accomplished, He told them all about the Holy Spirit, the Comforter...whi will teacg us all truths.

So there you have it in a nutshell. Trinity. Father Son and Holy Spirit. What's hard to understand about this? Nothing.
The dogma of the Trinity is not as simple as saying "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Even those opposed to the Trinity can say that.

The dogma answers the question posed by Jesus in today's Gospel: "Who do you say that I am?"


---> That Christ is homooúsios (ὁμοούσιος) with the Father is the dogma of the Trinity.
 

Edward

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The dogma of the Trinity is not as simple as saying "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Even those opposed to the Trinity can say that.

The dogma answers the question posed by Jesus in today's Gospel: "Who do you say that I am?"


---> That Christ is homooúsios (ὁμοούσιος) with the Father is the dogma of the Trinity.

Why can't it be that simple? Are you saying that where scripture makes clear Father-Son-Holy Spirit that...it doesn't really mean that, or it's really more or less? Ok. This should be interesting, have at it, I'll listen.
 

Edward

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I just realized what it is that is missing in the posts of those opposed to the trinity in this thread. What is the Godhead in His entirety? All they can say is that, it's not a trinity. Ok, so is God one, two? They never say.

Like our Brother said, who do you say He is?

You can't uh-uh the trinity and not say, that's ludicrous, lol. Think about how the spiritual world works as described in scripture. Spirits can join together, remember a legion of 2000 or more spirits all possessed a man?

I have a question. If God is a trinity and after Jesus comes and this earth and the millineum are done...and we're all with Christ, In Christ and Christ in us...will God still be a trinity then?
 

Butch5

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I just realized what it is that is missing in the posts of those opposed to the trinity in this thread. What is the Godhead in His entirety? All they can say is that, it's not a trinity. Ok, so is God one, two? They never say.

Like our Brother said, who do you say He is?

You can't uh-uh the trinity and not say, that's ludicrous, lol. Think about how the spiritual world works as described in scripture. Spirits can join together, remember a legion of 2000 or more spirits all possessed a man?

I have a question. If God is a trinity and after Jesus comes and this earth and the millineum are done...and we're all with Christ, In Christ and Christ in us...will God still be a trinity then?
Jesus' prayer answers the question.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (Jn. 17:20-22 KJV)

Was Jesus praying that all Christians would become a single being? If so, why hasn't it happened? Could it be that Jesus was praying that all of His followers would be united in purpose as He and His Father are? I think it's pretty clear that Jesus and the Father being one refers to unity. I don't think Jesus expected all believers to become a single being.
 

D-D-W

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That was my point. Moishe Rosen was Jewish and become an ordained Baptist.
No, not "was." Mr Rosen NEVER CEASED being Jewish.

He is the father of the modern Messianic Jew movement
Not so. As I have said several times, that honor goes to a series of Orthodox and Chassidic rabbis in the 1800s. In fact, Mr Rosen was part of one of those organizations (which is now called Chosen People Ministries) when he had a dispute with the leader and broke off part of it to form Jews for Jesus in the 1960s. The organization was over 80 years old at that point. The current head of Chosen People, Mitch Glazer, was Mr Rosen's assistant.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I am certain that is true. Your understanding of the history of Messianic Judaism, and of Judaism in general, is quite lacking.
 

Walpole

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No, not "was." Mr Rosen NEVER CEASED being Jewish.
That is a straw man. I am not arguing Jews cease being ethnic Jews when they convert to Christianity. (I have stated that repeatedly in this thread.)

However, when Jews do convert to Christianity, they normally cease practicing the religion of Judaism and instead embrace and practice Christianity (i.e. they believe in Jesus Christ).
Not so. As I have said several times, that honor goes to a series of Orthodox and Chassidic rabbis in the 1800s. In fact, Mr Rosen was part of one of those organizations (which is now called Chosen People Ministries) when he had a dispute with the leader and broke off part of it to form Jews for Jesus in the 1960s. The organization was over 80 years old at that point. The current head of Chosen People, Mitch Glazer, was Mr Rosen's assistant.
You missed my point again. Whether you claim Rosen or some rabbis from the 1800 who converted to Christianity as your progenitor, the point is the movement is in essence just another Protestant denomination. Look at their congregations. Many of their adherents are not even Jewish. It is is a Protestant denomination simply dressed up (in many cases quite literally) in Jewish customs and rituals.
I am certain that is true. Your understanding of the history of Messianic Judaism, and of Judaism in general, is quite lacking.
I understand the movement quite well. What I do not understand is the question you asked, which was, "Tell me of one traditional Jewish seminary of any denomination who would ordain as Rabbi a Jew who believes in Jesus?" (Link)

Why would a traditional Jewish seminary ordain a Christian as a Rabbi? You seem to have no idea what Jews believe.
 

Walpole

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Why can't it be that simple? Are you saying that where scripture makes clear Father-Son-Holy Spirit that...it doesn't really mean that, or it's really more or less? Ok. This should be interesting, have at it, I'll listen.
What I am saying is the Trinity is not simply saying, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." As I stated, even those who do not believe in the Trinity affirm this.

The reality is the Scriptures do not define the dogma of the Trinity. I am pressed for time this morning so will be back later to explain...
 

Walpole

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Why can't it be that simple? Are you saying that where scripture makes clear Father-Son-Holy Spirit that...it doesn't really mean that, or it's really more or less? Ok. This should be interesting, have at it, I'll listen.
I read earlier where another poster took a jab at Greek philosophy. I would argue Greek philosophy is integral to understanding Christianity. It is not a mere coincidence that the Hebrew world converged with the Hellenistic world at the Incarnation. The New Testament Scriptures themselves were written in Greek. Philosophy is ultimately the understanding of distinctions and is therefore necessary to study theology. The New Testament is full of Greek philosophy, used to convey the truths of the Christian faith. This is most beautifully captured by St. John and his description of the Son of God as Logos. Furthermore, St. Paul can rightfully be called the first Christian philosopher as he repeatedly uses Greek philosophy to make theological distinctions about the Person of Christ. He uses the thoughts and words of Aristotle, Seneca, Aratus, Plato, Menander and Socrates to describe and explain the mysteries of the Christian faith. When recounting his own conversion experience, he even has Jesus quoting the Greek poet Euripides' play, Bacchae! (cf. Acts 26:14)

That said, I will attempt to use distinctions to help understand why when describing the Trinity, it is not as simple as saying, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

God is a Trinity, but what does that mean? Here is where distinctions come in: It means that God is three Persons in one Nature. It can be summarized in four statements:

1. In the One Divine Nature, there are Three Persons – the Father, the Son (also called the Word, or Logos) and the Holy Spirit.
2. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father. In other words, no one of the Persons is either of the others.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
4. There are not three Gods, but one God.

Three Persons, but one Nature. What does that mean? Nature answers the question of what we are and person answers the question of who we are. Every being therefore has a nature. Nature explains what we do, as every being acts according to what it is. If you look at us, for example, there are numerous things our nature allows us to do: we can move, walk, run, think and most importantly, love. We can do these things because we have a human nature which makes them possible. A rock, however, could not do those things, as its nature does not allow it. While nature decides what actions or operations are possible for us to do, it is not our nature that actually does them, but rather our person who does. The person is the one who does the action and the nature is that by virtue of which the actions are done.

When we are describing God, we say He is Three Persons but One Nature. God is three distinct Persons and no one of them is either of the others and each is what He is by the total possession of the one same nature. They do not share the Divine nature, but rather possess it entirely. The Father possesses the whole nature of God as His own, the Son possesses the whole nature of God as His own, the Holy Spirit possesses the whole nature of God as His own. Each person is God, wholly and therefore equally with the others. And since nature decides what the person can do, each of the three persons who possess the Divine Nature can do all the things that go with being God. The Three Persons are God, not by the possession of equal and similar natures, but by the possession of one single nature.

Hence, to say that God is "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" requires qualification and distinction. For even those who oppose the Trinity can say "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" because they believe God is not Three Persons. For example, Modalism, Docetism and Arianism (even in its modern day version called the Jehovah's Witnesses) all say "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" but reject the Trinity.

I hope this helps.

God bless.
 

eddif

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The Bible
Romans 1:20 kjv
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, evenhis eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So creation:
Water, ice, vapor (all the same but very different)

The suns energy, light, photosynthesis / plants (all of one energy but totally different states)

Male, Female, Child (all different persons, but intertwined)

Parable of sower ( the physical seed , sower ground compared to the Word of God, Jesus, men’s hearts)

A preacher, the congregation, money (compared to ox, work treading out corn, not muzzled)

We can use the creation of God to understand his invisible nature. Hidden in nature, but revealed in man’s anatomy ( image of God).

Jesus also was the image of God bodily.

Body, soul, spirit.

Lots of differing views, but a concept that helps us now understand; where it once helped conceal.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 

eddif

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Is Christ the savior?
Is Christ eternal?
Christ is the Savior
Christ is eternal

The other things are shadows of things to come.

Colossians 2:16 kjv
26. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
27. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Shadows are not the ultimate reality - Jesus Christ is the ultimate truth. But, seeing the shadow will we ask for understanding?

The parable of the sower did cause the disciples to ask what the parable was about. When we see nature (creation) we should ask why creation is the way it is.

Parables hid the truth. Is there a direct correlation between creation and Jesus. Yes.
One of the greater works we do is use nature to explain shadows.

(The two women are two covenants). And in one sense I quote that sealed,

So that seeing they see not.
And
Hearing they hear not.

It is not accidental that the human hearts natural pacemaker looks like a crucified man.


The quickening spirit The second adam became - can direct our life. He stands at the door and so wants to enter and direct our life.

eddif
 

jaybo

 
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Christ is the Savior
Christ is eternal

The other things are shadows of things to come.

Colossians 2:16 kjv
26. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
27. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Shadows are not the ultimate reality - Jesus Christ is the ultimate truth. But, seeing the shadow will we ask for understanding?

The parable of the sower did cause the disciples to ask what the parable was about. When we see nature (creation) we should ask why creation is the way it is.

Parables hid the truth. Is there a direct correlation between creation and Jesus. Yes.
One of the greater works we do is use nature to explain shadows.

(The two women are two covenants). And in one sense I quote that sealed,

So that seeing they see not.
And
Hearing they hear not.

It is not accidental that the human hearts natural pacemaker looks like a crucified man.


The quickening spirit The second adam became - can direct our life. He stands at the door and so wants to enter and direct our life.

eddif
 
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